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Off-season Armchair GM Thread Part IX

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Old
08-21-2012, 12:52 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
One of our advanced stat posters put up a big thing a while back about how well he was doing against good competition in a 3rd line role.
Depends on which advanced stat poster you're using. WantonAbandon says he's a 3rd liner. SJeasy says he's not suited for the 3rd line and is a 4th liner.

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08-21-2012, 12:55 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by VP and GM View Post
I know, was he hurt and recovering... Trying to get the story here on his physical status. Looks like he became a UFA last summer, no one signed him...

He did play with Jumbo before, he's 32. Quick, good on the PP, had about 40 points his last NHL season...
If he's recovered from whatever ails him he would be a nice addition. Serious stick skill can play on the PP and would be a nice winger for ThorNton.

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08-21-2012, 12:58 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
I don't know where they would put him. He isn't suited for a 3rd line role and isn't good enough to be a top 6 player.
Have you ever seen him play? He easily has top 6 skill. He would instantly be one of the 2 or 3 best stick handlers on the team.

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08-21-2012, 01:06 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
I never said Sturm was a good option. I just don't see how signing a 4th liner can suddenly turn the team into the Flames.
You need to go back and read what I wrote instead of making up stuff and attributing it to me. I said basing personnel decisions on nostalgia is how you become the flames... not even close to what you are trying to attribute to me..

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08-21-2012, 01:08 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
Doesn't matter much what the stars fans say. One of our advanced stat posters put up a big thing a while back about how well he was doing against good competition in a 3rd line role.

People rag on THorNton all the time too but the advanced stats seem to say he's awesome.
Are you talking about the FtF post

http://www.fearthefin.com/2012/7/2/3...at-adam-burish

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08-21-2012, 01:09 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
Have you ever seen him play? He easily has top 6 skill. He would instantly be one of the 2 or 3 best stick handlers on the team.
Then why hasn't he been signed by another team. He isn't going to replace any of our top 6 players.

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08-21-2012, 01:17 AM
  #132
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Samsonov-Thornton-Pavelski
Marleau-Couture-Havlat
Clowe-XXX-Wingels
Galiardi-Desjardins-Burish

I can dig it. SS gives Jumbo another right-handed shot, so he has one on both wings, and it allows Marleau to play with Havlat. If we could swing a deal for a Brodziak-type at the deadline, that's a pretty good lineup.

I haven't watched Samsonov play in a while, how's his speed holding up? He has put up some good stats in his most recent seasons, he might be worth a shot.

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08-21-2012, 01:20 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by hohosaregood View Post
I hadn't seen that. No it was something someone posted here. Seemed convincing. I guess we'll see when the season starts how they decide to use him.

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08-21-2012, 01:23 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Samsonov-Thornton-Pavelski
Marleau-Couture-Havlat
Clowe-XXX-Wingels
Galiardi-Desjardins-Burish

I can dig it. SS gives Jumbo another right-handed shot, so he has one on both wings, and it allows Marleau to play with Havlat. If we could swing a deal for a Brodziak-type at the deadline, that's a pretty good lineup.

I haven't watched Samsonov play in a while, how's his speed holding up? He has put up some good stats in his most recent seasons, he might be worth a shot.
Moore in that 3C slot or another option from a 7th D movement would actually look promising. That is a beautiful 2nd line, and I think having Marleau and Havlat on Couture's wing for a while will open up a little space for him - lots of speed from wingers that can't be left alone.

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08-21-2012, 01:24 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
Then why hasn't he been signed by another team. He isn't going to replace any of our top 6 players.
I think he was considered soft when teams were focused on bigger teams. I also seem to remember he had injury problems. Not saying he replaces any of our top six really but he should be skilled enough to allow us to spread out our talent. He could potentially be good on ThorNtons wing...

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08-21-2012, 01:29 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Samsonov-Thornton-Pavelski
Marleau-Couture-Havlat
Clowe-XXX-Wingels
Galiardi-Desjardins-Burish

I can dig it. SS gives Jumbo another right-handed shot, so he has one on both wings, and it allows Marleau to play with Havlat. If we could swing a deal for a Brodziak-type at the deadline, that's a pretty good lineup.

I haven't watched Samsonov play in a while, how's his speed holding up? He has put up some good stats in his most recent seasons, he might be worth a shot.
I just know that after the report that Handzus was injured, that Tmac is going to give Handzus 3rd line duties next year. I hope for a Brodziak type guy their instead.

Samsonov is a pass 1st player like Jumbo. It would be like putting Havlat with Thornton. SS is similar to Havlat. SS isn't as fast, worse shot, worse defensively, but does have good hands like Havlat. I agree that it is worth a shot, but I doubt he will be able to get on the team.

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08-21-2012, 01:32 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Samsonov-Thornton-Pavelski
Marleau-Couture-Havlat
Clowe-XXX-Wingels
Galiardi-Desjardins-Burish

I can dig it. SS gives Jumbo another right-handed shot, so he has one on both wings, and it allows Marleau to play with Havlat. If we could swing a deal for a Brodziak-type at the deadline, that's a pretty good lineup.

I haven't watched Samsonov play in a while, how's his speed holding up? He has put up some good stats in his most recent seasons, he might be worth a shot.
Last I saw on Samsonov was him having a lot of cold/disinterested stretches. Doesn't use the shot much and is much more a playmaker a la Havlat/Whitney. Not a real fit for JT.

On my estimation of 3rd vs 4th line, I include scoring as well as possession stats. A weak third liner has a minimum of 25 points over 82 games, more like 30 especially if the guy is a center. Burish won't touch the scoring numbers. I don't think of Winnik as a 3rd liner either. Leaguewide, an average 3rd line will pop 45 goals whatever way you divvy it up (usually means one 20 goal scorer on the line.) They can get some of those points when being upshifted to higher lines.

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08-21-2012, 01:32 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by nerdybeat View Post
Moore in that 3C slot or another option from a 7th D movement would actually look promising. That is a beautiful 2nd line, and I think having Marleau and Havlat on Couture's wing for a while will open up a little space for him - lots of speed from wingers that can't be left alone.
I wanted to put Moore, but I honestly don't think he's gonna play. If so, that's a really solid forward lineup. Clowe and Wingels makes that a respectable top-6 even if two guys go down to injury (except if one is Thornton, obviously, but Havlat/Couture would be reasonable).

The more and more I think about it I think it'd be an interesting option.

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08-21-2012, 01:35 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
I think he was considered soft when teams were focused on bigger teams. I also seem to remember he had injury problems. Not saying he replaces any of our top six really but he should be skilled enough to allow us to spread out our talent. He could potentially be good on ThorNtons wing...
I think he has played with him before back in Boston. He is quite small and isn't a shooter. Pavelski would be better than SS on the 1st line.

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08-21-2012, 01:35 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Last I saw on Samsonov was him having a lot of cold/disinterested stretches. Doesn't use the shot much and is much more a playmaker a la Havlat/Whitney. Not a real fit for JT.
But if he's making the effort to get back in the game? I don't know, but maybe he'll show more interest. I don't know.

I guess you're right then, he's not a fit with JT (I love how my first instinct is just to shore the weaker player up with Joe ), but maybe he's a fit with Couture and Clowe? That could allow JT/Pavs to take a weaker player, and then Marleau and Havlat to play with Wingels? I don't know, but a guy with top-6 type of skill really changes the lineup in a good way.

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08-21-2012, 01:38 AM
  #141
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If DW wanted a Russian that could play with Jumbo, he should have went after Alex Semin.

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08-21-2012, 01:43 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
But if he's making the effort to get back in the game? I don't know, but maybe he'll show more interest. I don't know.

I guess you're right then, he's not a fit with JT (I love how my first instinct is just to shore the weaker player up with Joe ), but maybe he's a fit with Couture and Clowe? That could allow JT/Pavs to take a weaker player, and then Marleau and Havlat to play with Wingels? I don't know, but a guy with top-6 type of skill really changes the lineup in a good way.
Tmac is going to use Pavs Jumbo and Marleau together so he can go power vs. power. Remember, according to Tmac, "You can't re-invent the wheel unless your boss tells you to change it."

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08-21-2012, 01:46 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
Tmac is going to use Pavs Jumbo and Marleau together so he can go power vs. power. Remember, according to Tmac, "You can't re-invent the wheel unless your boss tells you to change it."
I feel like JT and Pavs could manage the hard minutes fine without Marleau if they got a decent player on their LW. Besides, if you could then separate Couture/Clowe and Marleau-Havlat, then you wouldn't have to make JT/Pavs play such hard minutes.

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08-21-2012, 01:52 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I feel like JT and Pavs could manage the hard minutes fine without Marleau if they got a decent player on their LW. Besides, if you could then separate Couture/Clowe and Marleau-Havlat, then you wouldn't have to make JT/Pavs play such hard minutes.
I'm with you. I just doubt Tmac will change his system. He sort of did the 3 scoring lines before, but that was when we had 7 top 6 fowards and a Wellwood/Malholtra on the 3rd line. His strategy is power vs. power and putting an enforcer in the top 6 a la Eager and Winchester.

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08-21-2012, 05:23 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
If DW wanted a Russian that could play with Jumbo, he should have went after Alex Semin.
Or not... there are about 7 million reasons why that just isn't true...

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08-21-2012, 08:25 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
Doesn't matter much what the stars fans say. One of our advanced stat posters put up a big thing a while back about how well he was doing against good competition in a 3rd line role.

People rag on THorNton all the time too but the advanced stats seem to say he's awesome.
What the advanced stats say is that he is decent at possession as a third liner against tough competition. He's never been a producer of points. He may bring solid play and I don't think anyone has disputed that but he's not going to be the catalyst for scoring on his line and has a better track record as a 4th liner.

As for Thornton, the advanced stats isn't something people rag on him for. His contributions and abilities are obvious. His issues are also obvious. The turnovers, his poor play on the PK, and his unwillingness to be the goal scorer even if it is for the team's benefit.

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08-21-2012, 10:54 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
But if he's making the effort to get back in the game? I don't know, but maybe he'll show more interest. I don't know.

I guess you're right then, he's not a fit with JT (I love how my first instinct is just to shore the weaker player up with Joe ), but maybe he's a fit with Couture and Clowe? That could allow JT/Pavs to take a weaker player, and then Marleau and Havlat to play with Wingels? I don't know, but a guy with top-6 type of skill really changes the lineup in a good way.
He'd be a good fit with Marleau, Couture or Pavs as center. Any center who can be a shoot first guy.

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08-21-2012, 02:05 PM
  #148
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funny people here would be happy with samsonov over nash on thornton's wing. when one of 2 have shown to have amazing chemistry with thornton, while the 2nd player has never once in his time with thornton shown any kind of chemistry (basically making the line a black hole offensively).

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08-21-2012, 02:07 PM
  #149
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funny people here would be happy with samsonov over nash on thornton's wing. when one of 2 have shown to have amazing chemistry with thornton, while the 2nd player has never once in his time with thornton shown any kind of chemistry (basically making the line a black hole offensively).
Well to be fair, Samsonov would probably make $6 million less and we'd still have Pavelski or Couture.

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08-21-2012, 02:56 PM
  #150
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What the advanced stats say is that he is decent at possession as a third liner against tough competition. He's never been a producer of points. He may bring solid play and I don't think anyone has disputed that but he's not going to be the catalyst for scoring on his line and has a better track record as a 4th liner.

As for Thornton, the advanced stats isn't something people rag on him for. His contributions and abilities are obvious. His issues are also obvious. The turnovers, his poor play on the PK, and his unwillingness to be the goal scorer even if it is for the team's benefit.
So Burrish could be decent on the 3rd line with a couple of players who are better point producers. Good possession numbers are helpful in that regard right? According to FTF he's great at limiting the oppositions shots which I think would be helpful on the 3rd line.

About ThorNton, I didn't say that anyone ragged on him about his advanced stats... I actually said the opposite.

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