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08-20-2012, 08:51 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
DAChampion - the bolded are real strawman. I never said any of that.

ECWHSWI - some players stop progressing before they hit 20, others still progress in their late 20ies and 30ies, its not even uncommon. Desharnais has been getting better every year and there is no hint that it might stop soon.

Last year was his first full year in the NHL, like Alexei Emelin who is a bit older. I don't see anyone claiming Emelin is at the peak of his development. I don't want to accuse anyone of double standards but it seems to me people are grasping at straws to ditch Desharnais, like they've done his whole career.

As for third liners and first liners - NHL third liners are good hockey players. They are defensive specialists, seasoned veterans, tough fellas. You'd think a player like Desharnais would have a hard time scoring against them.. Of course you don't send Desharnais to defend against Crosby if you have Plekanec. I wouldn't stand Stamkos or Tavares either. Desharnais is not a two way forward but he's a playmaking center, I'm sure theres a use for that in a top6. Last I recall forwards' task is to ensure goals are scored first and foremost and Desharnais definitely helps that. We have a ****load of two way players already.
I'm not sure why your post is referring to me.

The argument for Desharnais' progression is that this was his first full season, and thus we might expect him to go from being a 60 point center to be an 80 point center.

Counterarguments:
1) It's not like he went straight to the NHL from juniors. He played a full season in the ECHL, 2.5 seasons in the AHL, and another 0.5 seasons in the NHL. He's much more experienced than the typical 2nd year players.

2) He's 25 years old. Presumably he's been properly bodybuilding for years. We don't expect him to improve from "putting on muscle" like we do other second year players.

3) He played 81 games last year. A lot of people are excited about the fact that he was 20th among centers in points, but that's partly because he's artificially ahead of players like Jonathan Toews, Sidney Crosby, and Mikko Koivu who suffered the inevitable injuries. He's around 30th among centers for points per game. I'm not sure, but I think 70 games played a year is average. Just from that his point totals should regress.

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08-20-2012, 09:22 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The argument for Desharnais' progression is that this was his first full season, and thus we might expect him to go from being a 60 point center to be an 80 point center.

Counterarguments:
1) It's not like he went straight to the NHL from juniors. He played a full season in the ECHL, 2.5 seasons in the AHL, and another 0.5 seasons in the NHL. He's much more experienced than the typical 2nd year players.

2) He's 25 years old. Presumably he's been properly bodybuilding for years. We don't expect him to improve from "putting on muscle" like we do other second year players.

3) He played 81 games last year. A lot of people are excited about the fact that he was 20th among centers in points, but that's partly because he's artificially ahead of players like Jonathan Toews, Sidney Crosby, and Mikko Koivu who suffered the inevitable injuries. He's around 30th among centers for points per game. I'm not sure, but I think 70 games played a year is average. Just from that his point totals should regress.
The same arguments could have been said for Martin Saint Louis, who scored 40 points in his first full NHL season. He was 25, same as Desharnais.

I'm not claiming Desharnais is going to score 100pts next year but I'm sure he's not peaked. Perhaps he'll score 70pts or maybe he won't score many more than last year but is going to be more effective at both ends of the ice. One thing is Desharnais has always improved his weaknesses. They said he was too weak, he got stronger. They said he was too slow, he got faster. They said he couldn't win faceoffs, he wins them now. He doesn't shoot enough, perhaps he will shoot more often next year, and score more goals (he doesn't have a bad shot, he should use it more often). Besides Desharnais is still learning the NHL - age affects the body and Desharnais will never grow into a hulking beast. He still gets experience tho and his mind has always been his best weapon, I'm sure he can learn a lot more and be even more effective.

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08-20-2012, 09:54 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
The same arguments could have been said for Martin Saint Louis, who scored 40 points in his first full NHL season. He was 25, same as Desharnais.

I'm not claiming Desharnais is going to score 100pts next year but I'm sure he's not peaked. Perhaps he'll score 70pts or maybe he won't score many more than last year but is going to be more effective at both ends of the ice. One thing is Desharnais has always improved his weaknesses. They said he was too weak, he got stronger. They said he was too slow, he got faster. They said he couldn't win faceoffs, he wins them now. He doesn't shoot enough, perhaps he will shoot more often next year, and score more goals (he doesn't have a bad shot, he should use it more often). Besides Desharnais is still learning the NHL - age affects the body and Desharnais will never grow into a hulking beast. He still gets experience tho and his mind has always been his best weapon, I'm sure he can learn a lot more and be even more effective.
and of all the thousands of players to ever skate in the NHL, how many more can you name ?

let's try this : undrafted, 1st full season at 25, at least one season with 70+ pts... how many ?

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08-20-2012, 10:16 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and of all the thousands of players to ever skate in the NHL, how many more can you name ?

let's try this : undrafted, 1st full season at 25, at least one season with 70+ pts... how many ?
Jean Béliveau.

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08-20-2012, 10:35 PM
  #280
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Jean Béliveau.
that's one, 60 years ago...

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08-21-2012, 06:42 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
that's one, 60 years ago...
Well, there's no pleasing you

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08-21-2012, 11:01 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
The same arguments could have been said for Martin Saint Louis, who scored 40 points in his first full NHL season. He was 25, same as Desharnais.
A few differences: St-Louis played 15:14 per game that season, as opposed to 18:23 for DD last season. Also, the Lightning were horrible in 2000-01, even worse than the Habs last season. The Lightning scored 201 goals, the Habs scored 212. Finally, St-Louis had a sustainable 12.8 shooting %, as opposed to DD's 16.3 that can be expected to come back to earth.

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08-21-2012, 11:53 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and of all the thousands of players to ever skate in the NHL, how many more can you name ?

let's try this : undrafted, 1st full season at 25, at least one season with 70+ pts... how many ?
Not all of the players I will name were undrafted but it doesn't matter. Desharnais might have made the NHL earlier if he was drafted (and 30 teams would draft him, probably in the first round, if that draft was done in hindsight).

Daniel Briere might have been drafted but got waived later. He had his first full season at 24 and enjoys a good career with multiple 70+ point seasons.

Burrows (undrafted) is currently a solid player even if he was 25 in his first full season and managed only 9 points (he then went on to have multiple 50+ point season, scored 35 goals in one and 20+ in four).

Dan Boyle was undrafted and 25 when he played his first full year in the NHL. He went on to become one of the leagues' best defensemen and he still is, ten years later.

Pavel Datsyuk was a 6th rounder and joined the NHL at 23. He did not break 70 point before being 27. He peaked at the ripe old age of 29 and 30 years old with consecutive 97 point seasons.

Tomas Holmstrom, a 10th rounder who made it at 24. He did pretty good as well. In fact I could name a plethoria of other Red Wings late boomers, it seems these guys know what they are doing and can be competitive even if they keep these players.

Theres also Brian Rafalski, another pretty decent undrafted guy who turned out pretty good even if he made the NHL at 25.

Tim Tomas made it at 31, went on to win two Vezinas and a Conn Smythe. He was drafted tho, 9th round.

Thats only out of memory, I don't know all NHLers or their stories. I'm sure many could be found, I don't have the patience to look for them.

There are also cases of players who made the NHL at 20 or 21 but didn't become impact players until much later, like our own Josh Gorges who is better every year even if he's older than Desharnais (before 25 he was a marginal player at best). The majority of players make the NHL around 20 and peak around 25 but thats only that, a majority. A lot of players follow a different path and Desharnais is seemingly taking that path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin
A few differences: St-Louis played 15:14 per game that season, as opposed to 18:23 for DD last season. Also, the Lightning were horrible in 2000-01, even worse than the Habs last season. The Lightning scored 201 goals, the Habs scored 212. Finally, St-Louis had a sustainable 12.8 shooting %, as opposed to DD's 16.3 that can be expected to come back to earth.
I'm not arguing that Desharnais is better than St. Louis. Don't you agree there are similarities in their development path tho?

Btw Desharnais would still have had 56pts with a 12% shooting rate and its St.Louis' problem if he couldn't get ice time on that goddawful team. DD had a better first full season than Martin St. Louis and again. It doesn't mean he will score 100pts in the near future but perhaps people should take the hint that he's not just a disposable piece?


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08-21-2012, 01:59 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Btw Desharnais would still have had 56pts with a 12% shooting rate and its St.Louis' problem if he couldn't get ice time on that goddawful team. DD had a better first full season than Martin St. Louis and again. It doesn't mean he will score 100pts in the near future but perhaps people should take the hint that he's not just a disposable piece?
He's not disposable.

If the best trade offers that come in for either DD or Plekanec are all garbage, then it is better to convert DD to wing than to trade him.

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08-21-2012, 02:15 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I'm not arguing that Desharnais is better than St. Louis. Don't you agree there are similarities in their development path tho?

Btw Desharnais would still have had 56pts with a 12% shooting rate and its St.Louis' problem if he couldn't get ice time on that goddawful team. DD had a better first full season than Martin St. Louis and again. It doesn't mean he will score 100pts in the near future but perhaps people should take the hint that he's not just a disposable piece?
Oh yes, well said, I agree with most of this. I think the lesson here is that there is value to be found in players with one obvious weakness (in these cases, size) who nevertheless have success at every level while developing. DD definitely has value, and it appears as though you agree that it is unreasonable to expect him to reach St-Louis' level of production.

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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
and its St.Louis' problem if he couldn't get ice time on that goddawful team.
This part I disagree with. In 2000-01 the bias against small players was even more extreme than it is now. I think it's a safe assumption that St-Louis was under-used because the coach didn't yet believe quite how useful this tiny player could be. Anyway, my point was that comparing DD and MSL's point production in their 25 year old seasons isn't quite comparing apples to apples. Given DD's 18min per game, 25 year old MSL outscores 25 year old MSL.

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08-21-2012, 02:20 PM
  #286
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Oh yes, well said, I agree with most of this. I think the lesson here is that there is value to be found in players with one obvious weakness (in these cases, size) who nevertheless have success at every level while developing. DD definitely has value, and it appears as though you agree that it is unreasonable to expect him to reach St-Louis' level of production.



This part I disagree with. In 2000-01 the bias against small players was even more extreme than it is now. I think it's a safe assumption that St-Louis was under-used because the coach didn't yet believe quite how useful this tiny player could be. Anyway, my point was that comparing DD and MSL's point production in their 25 year old seasons isn't quite comparing apples to apples. Given DD's 18min per game, 25 year old MSL outscores 25 year old MSL.
The difference between 15 minutes a game and 18 minutes a game is only 20%.

His 40 points would have gone to 48 points. It's less of a jump afterwards, but he still grew substantially.

Admittedly I'm not sure what type of minutes those were and who his linemates were.

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08-21-2012, 02:29 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
A few differences: St-Louis played 15:14 per game that season, as opposed to 18:23 for DD last season. Also, the Lightning were horrible in 2000-01, even worse than the Habs last season. The Lightning scored 201 goals, the Habs scored 212. Finally, St-Louis had a sustainable 12.8 shooting %, as opposed to DD's 16.3 that can be expected to come back to earth.
Desharnais also shot only 98 times, and is much more biased towards passing than St-Louis is (who shot 141 times in 00-01). There no reason to think Desharnais will shot significantly more. While 16.3 is high, it's not THAT high for a guy who's primarily a playmaker. A MUCH better Example -- Sergei Kostitsyn has a career shooting PCT superior to 16.3. Or even Mike Ribeiro, whose career shooting % is over 14 % (and who shoots more than Desharnais to begin with)

Actually, Kostitsyn shot a bit more (on a per game basis) than Desharnais last season (minimal difference) and was used two minutes less than Desharnais. Nobody is even suggesting Kostitsyn's shooting % will go down (it actually went down from a whopping 24.7% from the prior season to a more normal 17.5%) right now, because he's a guy who doesn't shoot that much -- and the same can be said for Desharnais.

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08-21-2012, 03:08 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Not all of the players I will name were undrafted but it doesn't matter. Desharnais might have made the NHL earlier if he was drafted (and 30 teams would draft him, probably in the first round, if that draft was done in hindsight).

Daniel Briere might have been drafted but got waived later. He had his first full season at 24 and enjoys a good career with multiple 70+ point seasons.

Burrows (undrafted) is currently a solid player even if he was 25 in his first full season and managed only 9 points (he then went on to have multiple 50+ point season, scored 35 goals in one and 20+ in four).

Dan Boyle was undrafted and 25 when he played his first full year in the NHL. He went on to become one of the leagues' best defensemen and he still is, ten years later.

Pavel Datsyuk was a 6th rounder and joined the NHL at 23. He did not break 70 point before being 27. He peaked at the ripe old age of 29 and 30 years old with consecutive 97 point seasons.

Tomas Holmstrom, a 10th rounder who made it at 24. He did pretty good as well. In fact I could name a plethoria of other Red Wings late boomers, it seems these guys know what they are doing and can be competitive even if they keep these players.

Theres also Brian Rafalski, another pretty decent undrafted guy who turned out pretty good even if he made the NHL at 25.

Tim Tomas made it at 31, went on to win two Vezinas and a Conn Smythe. He was drafted tho, 9th round.

Thats only out of memory, I don't know all NHLers or their stories. I'm sure many could be found, I don't have the patience to look for them.

There are also cases of players who made the NHL at 20 or 21 but didn't become impact players until much later, like our own Josh Gorges who is better every year even if he's older than Desharnais (before 25 he was a marginal player at best). The majority of players make the NHL around 20 and peak around 25 but thats only that, a majority. A lot of players follow a different path and Desharnais is seemingly taking that path.



I'm not arguing that Desharnais is better than St. Louis. Don't you agree there are similarities in their development path tho?

Btw Desharnais would still have had 56pts with a 12% shooting rate and its St.Louis' problem if he couldn't get ice time on that goddawful team. DD had a better first full season than Martin St. Louis and again. It doesn't mean he will score 100pts in the near future but perhaps people should take the hint that he's not just a disposable piece?
actually is does as it was the Question I asked : UNDRAFTED, 25 years old in their first full season, at least one 70+ season...

since a lot of you seems to be so sure he'll keep developping some more, that he'll keep improving a whole lot...

and while you seems to think it's so damn easy, you managed zero that fits the criteria in your list...

the closest you found is Borrows who had one 60 pts season...


so, to my Q : undrafted, 25 yo in first full season, at least one 70+ pts season we're back to Jean Beliveau -> approx. 60 years ago...

and yet people are so sure he'll keep improving, some here even think he'll be a PPG soon... huh, based on what?


yeah, it's possible it happens, could even happen next season... but "being sure of it" ? come on now...

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08-21-2012, 03:27 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
actually is does as it was the Question I asked : UNDRAFTED, 25 years old in their first full season, at least one 70+ season...

since a lot of you seems to be so sure he'll keep developping some more, that he'll keep improving a whole lot...

and while you seems to think it's so damn easy, you managed zero that fits the criteria in your list...

the closest you found is Borrows who had one 60 pts season...


so, to my Q : undrafted, 25 yo in first full season, at least one 70+ pts season we're back to Jean Beliveau -> approx. 60 years ago...

and yet people are so sure he'll keep improving, some here even think he'll be a PPG soon... huh, based on what?


yeah, it's possible it happens, could even happen next season... but "being sure of it" ? come on now...
Using standard outcomes under your parameters (which is isn't unreasonable), there probably are close to zero (or zero) players historically who would allow for a highly favorable projection (70+ points) for DD's future offensive output.

I used to argue with a local Cincinnati hockey authority about DD's future. He would point out that there were no undrafted sub 5'9" players from the QMJHL who had ever played 100 NHL games. I never bothered researching his facts, but acquiesced to the likelihood that it was true. Nonetheless, I still was astounded by what I had seen in DD and was fairly certain that after his first full AHL season, that he could break that mold.

His ECHL coach was a guy named Chuck Weber. Weber is now coach of the San Antionio Rampage (Florida's AHL affiliate) and a likely NHL participant in the future. I used to ask Weber-in amazement-how a kid like DD could even play a single game at the ECHL level. He was adamant that DD would have been an NHL player in 2007-08 if it weren't for one thing. Naturally, that would have been his diminutive stature.

DD is just a very odd case of a guy slipping through the cracks. 99.something % of the time, the cracks he slipped through don't open for valid reasons.

His second half of last season indicates a reasonable possibility of a 70 point season at some point. Still, expectations shouldn't go through the roof with this kid. He's easily got the best vision of any of the centers he's played with on the Canadiens (Gally isn't in this group as I haven't seen him), so DD clearly has a place on the Canadiens long term. Whether it be as a 50 point PP specialist or a 55-70 point #1 or #2 center remains to be seen.

The Canadiens have far bigger worries in the center department. Plekanec's lack of production after about game 25 of last season is disturbing and Eller's 4 assists in his last 39 (or so) games and Gally's physical durability have to concern the powers-that-be exponentially more than whether DD becomes a PPG player. If he does become a regular 70+ point producer, then it's a bonus that no one would have ever reasonably projected for him for many of the reasons others have validly cited over the years.


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08-21-2012, 03:41 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
Using standard outcomes under your parameters (which is isn't unreasonable), there probably are close to zero (or zero) players historically who would allow for a highly favorable projection (70+ points) for DD's future offensive output.

I used to argue with a local Cincinnati hockey authority about DD's future. He would point out that there were no undrafted sub 5'9" players from the QMJHL who had ever played 100 NHL games. I never bothered researching his facts, but acquiesced to the likelihood that it was true. Nonetheless, I still was astounded by what I had seen in DD and was fairly certain that after his first full AHL season, that he could break that mold.

His ECHL coach was a guy named Chuck Weber. Weber is now coach of the San Antionio Rampage (Florida's AHL affiliate) and a likely NHL participant in the future. I used to ask Weber-in amazement-how a kid like DD could even play a single game at the ECHL level. He was adamant that DD would have been an NHL player in 2007-08 if it weren't for one thing. Naturally, that would have been his diminutive stature.

DD is just a very odd case of a guy slipping through the cracks. 99.something % of the time, the cracks he slipped through don't open for valid reasons.

His second half of last season indicates a reasonable possibility of a 70 point season at some point. Still, expectations shouldn't go through the roof with this kid. He's easily got the best vision of any of the centers he's played with on the Canadiens (Gally isn't in this group as I haven't seen him), so DD clearly has a place on the Canadiens long term. Whether it be as a 50 point PP specialist or a 55-70 point #1 or #2 center remains to be seen.

The Canadiens have far bigger worries in the center department. Plekanec's lack of production after about game 25 of last season is disturbing and Eller's 4 assists in his last 39 (or so) games and Gally's physical durability have to concern the powers-that-be exponentially more than whether DD becomes a PPG player. If he does become a regular 70+ point producer, then it's a bonus that no one would have ever reasonably projected for him for many of the reasons others have validly cited over the years.
As simple as that.

And there would be nothing wrong for him in being a 50+ pts player. Actually, considering where he's coming from, that would be quite an accomplishment.

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08-21-2012, 03:43 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post

I used to argue with a local Cincinnati hockey authority about DD's future. He would point out that there were no undrafted sub 5'9" players from the QMJHL who had ever played 100 NHL games. I never bothered researching his facts, but acquiesced to the likelihood that it was true. Nonetheless, I still was astounded by what I had seen in DD and was fairly certain that after his first full AHL season, that he could break that mold.
That guy is probably right (if we exclude pre-draft era). I thought Gilles Thibeaudeau would fit that description, but it appears he was 5'10. Stéphane Lebeau was also 5'10.

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08-21-2012, 04:00 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
actually is does as it was the Question I asked : UNDRAFTED, 25 years old in their first full season, at least one 70+ season...

since a lot of you seems to be so sure he'll keep developping some more, that he'll keep improving a whole lot...

and while you seems to think it's so damn easy, you managed zero that fits the criteria in your list...

the closest you found is Borrows who had one 60 pts season...


so, to my Q : undrafted, 25 yo in first full season, at least one 70+ pts season we're back to Jean Beliveau -> approx. 60 years ago...

and yet people are so sure he'll keep improving, some here even think he'll be a PPG soon... huh, based on what?


yeah, it's possible it happens, could even happen next season... but "being sure of it" ? come on now...
Thats a silly argument, sorry. Why would I need to find players that fit your criterias to prove that a player can improve after he's 25 years old. And again undrafted or draft rank means absolutely nothing, Desharnais would have been a first rounder if scouts did not get scared of his height and knew what he could do. Not long ago there were 9 draft rounds, Desharnais would have been drafted then.

Why must he have made the NHL at 25? Why not 24? Desharnais was in the NHL at 24 and there was no question of him going back to the AHL then. Is 23 years old much different than 25?

And why 70 points? Why not 63? Why not 35 goals?

You set multiple arbitrary factors and ask me to find players that fit them. What does it prove? Martin St Louis fits all your criterias. Adam Oates does too, you might have heard of him. And Dan Boyle, whom I mentionned before. He didn't score 70 points, but being a defensemen and scoring 50 to 60 points every year is pretty good I think.

If we widen the selection to ''players who made the NHL after 23 and became good/elite players later in their career'' I'm sure we can produce a healthy list.

Determined players that are willing to get better usually do so within their first few years of joining a league and Desharnais is the perfect example of that.

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08-21-2012, 04:06 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Desharnais also shot only 98 times, and is much more biased towards passing than St-Louis is (who shot 141 times in 00-01). There no reason to think Desharnais will shot significantly more. While 16.3 is high, it's not THAT high for a guy who's primarily a playmaker. A MUCH better Example -- Sergei Kostitsyn has a career shooting PCT superior to 16.3. Or even Mike Ribeiro, whose career shooting % is over 14 % (and who shoots more than Desharnais to begin with)

Actually, Kostitsyn shot a bit more (on a per game basis) than Desharnais last season (minimal difference) and was used two minutes less than Desharnais. Nobody is even suggesting Kostitsyn's shooting % will go down (it actually went down from a whopping 24.7% from the prior season to a more normal 17.5%) right now, because he's a guy who doesn't shoot that much -- and the same can be said for Desharnais.
As much as I'll usually argue for shooting% regression in most cases, this should be correct for Desharnais. DD's shot rate per minute on even strength is worse than most grinders, at about 1/3rd of Pacioretty's and 2/5ths of Cole's. Someone that selective (Like Tanguay or S. Kostitsyn as major comparisons) is going to have a high natural shooting%.

The guy due for a shooting regression is Pacioretty, but only at even strength. He under shot on the powerplay to the point where the two will even out.

Cole is a very high even strength shooter (~12% over 4 previous seasons) also and Pacioretty should be at least average for a top six forward (~9% is average, he's shot at 10.2% on even strength the past two years). Factoring in defenseman shots the line should score between 9-10% of on ice even strength shots in a given year rather than league average 8.2%. So look for a global regression of about 10% in the line's even strength scoring. That just takes them down from one of the top 5 regular Even strength scoring lines in the league to about league average for a primary scoring line.

The underlying message should be that Pacioretty and Cole are both really dangerous scorers on even strength. Pacioretty is brilliant all-round, Cole tends to be an even strength specialist.

Pretty unlikely Cole scores 10 PP goals again though, his goal total is the one most likely going down from last years.


As for the star player who broke in at 25 argument.

Remember that you're only looking at successful cases, there are plenty that don't pan out that way. Its certainly not impossible Desharnais has more development but its also reasonable to thing he's hitting his peak right now.

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08-21-2012, 04:16 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Thats a silly argument, sorry. Why would I need to find players that fit your criterias to prove that a player can improve after he's 25 years old. And again undrafted or draft rank means absolutely nothing, Desharnais would have been a first rounder if scouts did not get scared of his height and knew what he could do. Not long ago there were 9 draft rounds, Desharnais would have been drafted then.

Why must he have made the NHL at 25? Why not 24? Desharnais was in the NHL at 24 and there was no question of him going back to the AHL then. Is 23 years old much different than 25?

And why 70 points? Why not 63? Why not 35 goals?

You set multiple arbitrary factors and ask me to find players that fit them. What does it prove? Martin St Louis fits all your criterias. Adam Oates does too, you might have heard of him. And Dan Boyle, whom I mentionned before. He didn't score 70 points, but being a defensemen and scoring 50 to 60 points every year is pretty good I think.

If we widen the selection to ''players who made the NHL after 23 and became good/elite players later in their career'' I'm sure we can produce a healthy list.

Determined players that are willing to get better usually do so within their first few years of joining a league and Desharnais is the perfect example of that.
if that was the case, there would be a ******** of undrafted players who became stars/superstars... but guess what, there isnt a ******** who did...



this isnt arbitrary, it's exactly like DD, who was undrafted, and had his first full at 25... all I'm asking is, how many players, who -> LIKE DD, (insert criteria here) managed to get better to a point they could be considered 70+ pts players ? I'm not asking you to gimme names of players who were drafted at 18, started right away in the league and all that... nope, players who were more or less in the same situation as DD...

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08-21-2012, 04:24 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
if that was the case, there would be a ******** of undrafted players who became stars/superstars... but guess what, there isnt a ******** who did...



this isnt arbitrary, it's exactly like DD, who was undrafted, and had his first full at 25... all I'm asking is, how many players, who -> LIKE DD, (insert criteria here) managed to get better to a point they could be considered 70+ pts players ? I'm not asking you to gimme names of players who were drafted at 18, started right away in the league and all that... nope, players who were more or less in the same situation as DD...
Did you even read what I wrote? To say there were no players exactly like DD that got better proves nothing in itself. Anyways Martin St. Louis is the best example and a very good one. He's more an exception than a rule but Desharnais is already an exception himself, theres no need to deny that. To say Desharnais can't be a key player on the team because there are few undrafted 25 years old with 70 points season is like saying saying Chara can't be a star NHL defensemen because no 6'9'' slovakian defensemen were stars before him.

And there are hundreds of drafted players that turnout out to be nothing special. Draft rank doesn't mean **** once you know what a player is really made of and you need a few years to know that. If Desharnais was drafted he would have made the NHL earlier (no ECHL stint) and would have likely scored more last year because he would have been an experienced NHLer instead of a rookie. When I say Desharnais can and probably will be better next year I'm not saying he's going to win the Art Ross but he might score a few more points, or perhaps he will be a more effective two way player or both. I said all that earlier. I doubt he'll be a perennial 70pt scorer (maybe he'll do it once in the right circumstances), there are very few 70pt scorers in the league today. He might get 55 to 65 yearly for a while tho and that would be very nice for us.


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08-21-2012, 04:35 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
He's not disposable.

If the best trade offers that come in for either DD or Plekanec are all garbage, then it is better to convert DD to wing than to trade him.
No, it is better to leave DD at center with Pacioretty and Cole. They are our top line and the main reason is "chemistry", the kind you can not buy. Is it possible that DD regresses? Sure it is. It is also possible that he becomes our own Giroux. Did you know DD had a better 1st full NHL season than Giroux did? No, I am not saying DD IS better than Giroux. I am NOT saying he will be. However, the truth is that he COULD be. As others have demonstrated, DD has plenty of ability to improve. Keep DD with Cole and Pacioretty, and see how much better that line becomes when we have a true second line that is an offensive threat to take some pressure off our top line.

There is NO reason to screw up our top line at this point in time. Chemistry is truly important, moreso than simple skill, sometimes. Ask Blue Jackets fans how well Carter and Nash worked together, and you might start to understand the true value of keeping DD right where he is...at least until he fails to produce on a consistent basis.

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08-21-2012, 04:41 PM
  #297
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I wonder why people worry that he might produce and get a big salary... I mean, if he produces, he helps the team, right ?
Who's worried? Just discussing the possibilities.

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08-21-2012, 04:52 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Did you even read what I wrote? To say there were no players exactly like DD that got better proves nothing in itself. Anyways Martin St. Louis is the best example and a very good one. He's more an exception than a rule but Desharnais is already an exception himself, theres no need to deny that. To say Desharnais can't be a key player on the team because there are few undrafted 25 years old with 70 points season is like saying saying Chara can't be a star NHL defensemen because no 6'9'' slovakian defensemen were stars before him.

And there are hundreds of drafted players that turnout out to be nothing special. Draft rank doesn't mean **** once you know what a player is really made of and you need a few years to know that. If Desharnais was drafted he would have made the NHL earlier (no ECHL stint) and would have likely scored more last year because he would have been an experienced NHLer instead of a rookie. When I say Desharnais can and probably will be better next year I'm not saying he's going to win the Art Ross but he might score a few more points, or perhaps he will be a more effective two way player or both. I said all that earlier. I doubt he'll be a perennial 70pt scorer (maybe he'll do it once in the right circumstances), there are very few 70pt scorers in the league today. He might get 55 to 65 yearly for a while tho and that would be very nice for us.
took you a while.

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08-21-2012, 05:15 PM
  #299
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St. Louis was undrafted, first full season at 24 and first 70 point season at 27. He continued to improve.

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08-21-2012, 05:28 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
No, it is better to leave DD at center with Pacioretty and Cole. They are our top line and the main reason is "chemistry", the kind you can not buy. Is it possible that DD regresses? Sure it is. It is also possible that he becomes our own Giroux. Did you know DD had a better 1st full NHL season than Giroux did? No, I am not saying DD IS better than Giroux. I am NOT saying he will be. However, the truth is that he COULD be. As others have demonstrated, DD has plenty of ability to improve. Keep DD with Cole and Pacioretty, and see how much better that line becomes when we have a true second line that is an offensive threat to take some pressure off our top line.

There is NO reason to screw up our top line at this point in time. Chemistry is truly important, moreso than simple skill, sometimes. Ask Blue Jackets fans how well Carter and Nash worked together, and you might start to understand the true value of keeping DD right where he is...at least until he fails to produce on a consistent basis.
Chemistry rarely lasts past a season.

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