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Does Bobby Ryan's value = PK Subban's value ?

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Old
08-21-2012, 01:52 AM
  #126
Vipers31
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
You really do not actually understand what makes a great defender in the NHL, do you?
While I agree with some of what you're saying in contrast to other arguments - a mixture of sexy offensive and "defensive" stats is not it. Playing fantastic defense is the biggest part of what makes a great defender in the NHL, and that simply isn't reflected in hits, blocked shots or minutes played.

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08-21-2012, 01:53 AM
  #127
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Subban>Ryan if not simply for the fact that a #1 D is harder to find then a #1 Winger

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08-21-2012, 03:46 AM
  #128
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Ryan>>>>>>>>>>>>> subban

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08-21-2012, 04:58 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
Experts and fans said the same thing about the likes of Phaneuf, Bouwmeester, and Pitkanen too.

You can throw out all the stats you like, but sometimes young players have tremendous success in their first few years and settle down into a solid player, but not the player a lot of people thought they would become.
You mean like Ryan has.

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08-21-2012, 05:21 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswrjobe53 View Post
to me:

Ryan > Subban
To me I would say Subban , but with all you read about him fighting with team mates i would rather have Ryan on my team . It is hard to know what to make of Subban with the Montreal media ,this could just be a product of living in a hockey crazy market . If he was in a southern market maybe we are not even talking about this

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08-21-2012, 05:24 AM
  #131
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Oranges > Apples

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08-21-2012, 05:33 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingKopitar11 View Post
Ryan>>>>>>>>>>>>> subban
I guess you do not watch hockey . If you did you would never make such a statement . You could say Ryan had > then Subban but the >>>>>>>>>>>>> is going overboard .
I think Subban has more value , but that is just my take on it . It is debatable and points can be made for both sides , but lets not get ridiculous .


I said in an early posting that i would taken Ryan over Subban , base on what you hear in the news about him fighting with team mates . Now i think about it i would rather take Subban that then a cry baby Ryan . Crying over be mention in trade rumours , how dare him team try and get better .

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08-21-2012, 06:35 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
So it means nothing that he is one of only fifteen defenders in the entire NHL to put up very good offensive and defensive stats? It means nothing that he plays a shutdown role against the other teams' top line at even strength and on the PK? It means nothing that he is supposedly so bad defensively that he ended up a +9 on the third worst team in the NHL? All of the numbers and those of us who watch him for almost 82 games per year are wrong, but you are somehow right just because it is your opinion? You say he is over hyped, offer nothing of substance to back it up other than an off hand insult to people who watch him because they are idiots who get impressed by a spin move, and all of us who have watched and analyzed hockey for almost 4 decades are supposed to bow down to your wisdom? Get real.

Subban is not the best defenceman in the league. He is not yet a top 10 defenceman in this league. He is in the discussion for top 20. That makes him a #1, first pairing defenceman in the NHL. Heck, even if he was only rated 28th (as per NHL.com's rankings), that still qualifies him as a top pairing #1 defender. The fact that he is not simply an offensive or defensive specialist makes him more valuable as a defender, not less.

I also wonder at your statement that Phaneuf is not a top defender in this league. 44 points (12th in the league), over 200 hits (7th in the league), over 100 blocked shots (55th in the league), playing over 25 minutes per night (6th in the league) without a lot of great players around him and some pathetic goaltending. You really do not actually understand what makes a great defender in the NHL, do you? Phaneuf is easily a top 15 defender in the NHL.

Now, yes, it is possible that Subban will not surpass what he has done so far. It is also possible he WILL surpass what he has done so far. Try to have an actual, informed opinion next time, rather than just an opinion.
There is no right or wrong, it's called an opinion. If you don't like my opinion too bad, you are entitled to your own.

Subban plays all those minutes because there is no one else on Montreal to do it. Markov is not capable of playing a full season. Kaberle, Weber, Diaz, Emelin are not good enough to play that many minutes. Also I addressed why I thought Subban was over-hyped. I think he plays a flashy game and it leads to him making bad decisions at times. I don't think he's as good as a defender as some people build him up to be.

Yes, I have acknowledged that he could surpass his current level of play and become a great player, but it is my OPINION that he won't, but again, he could. Just because my opinion disagree's with yours does not make it uninformed.

Also no where did I state that Phaneuf is or is not a top defender in the league. What I stated was that he showed the potential to be a better defenseman than he is currently, and that I would rather have Ryan over Phaneuf on my team.

You quoted me wrong on just about everything you said. You seem like your too emotionally invested in Subban to consider a varying opinion.

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08-21-2012, 06:58 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by topdog View Post
You mean like Ryan has.
lol, wut?

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08-21-2012, 08:34 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Newfie9 View Post
lol, wut?
Just like he said. Ryan's production dropped from his best year, so therefore like the poster he quoted said, he must be settling into becoming a solid player after showing early success. All players peak at 22 on HF.

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08-21-2012, 10:03 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
We have had this discussion in the past, and you declared that Subban would be the #5 defenceman on the Ducks. Try to remember previous threads. The fact that you are pushing hard that Subban is not a #1 defenceman in this league shows your obliviousness to how good he actually is.

You HAVE been preaching that Subban is not a #1 defenceman in the league. You have been shown to be wrong in as many ways as possible other than simple opinion. No worries, you can keep saying Subban is not a #1 defenceman and we will keep watching him prove that he IS a #1 defenceman.

One last thing. You stated:



Subban is on the ice in all situations: PK, PP, ES. He plays against the other team's top offensive players during the PK and even strength, and faces their top PK unit when he is on the PP. So, you might try and realize that you DO believe Subban is a #1 right now since he fits YOUR own stated criteria for a #1 defenceman...
You are right, he does all those things and is a very solid 2-way defender. I justr dont think he is there yet. I clearly had him bolded in red and I said I thought those players would be #1's with a little bit of seasoning. I am not here to bash Subban. I have said multiple times that he is good and can very easily be a #1.

I just dont think he is yet.

And I would never say Subban is a #5. I honestly do not remember that conversation but I will take your word for it.

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08-21-2012, 10:04 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topdog View Post
You mean like Ryan has.
lul what? 4 straight 30 goal seasons with no PP time in the last 2.

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08-21-2012, 10:33 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
There is no right or wrong, it's called an opinion. If you don't like my opinion too bad, you are entitled to your own.

Subban plays all those minutes because there is no one else on Montreal to do it. Markov is not capable of playing a full season. Kaberle, Weber, Diaz, Emelin are not good enough to play that many minutes. Also I addressed why I thought Subban was over-hyped. I think he plays a flashy game and it leads to him making bad decisions at times. I don't think he's as good as a defender as some people build him up to be.

Yes, I have acknowledged that he could surpass his current level of play and become a great player, but it is my OPINION that he won't, but again, he could. Just because my opinion disagree's with yours does not make it uninformed.

Also no where did I state that Phaneuf is or is not a top defender in the league. What I stated was that he showed the potential to be a better defenseman than he is currently, and that I would rather have Ryan over Phaneuf on my team.

You quoted me wrong on just about everything you said. You seem like your too emotionally invested in Subban to consider a varying opinion.
It's quite funny, because on HF it's his offensive game that is overrated.. Not his defensive game. People think that his greatest assets is his offense.. But it's not. For the last season it's been his defensive game. He actually struggled alot in defense.

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08-21-2012, 10:50 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topdog View Post
You mean like Ryan has.
In his first 2 full seasons the old timer in front of him on the PP units missed a combined 45 games, and that bumped Ryan up to full time PP duties for those games. In the past 2 seasons, where his PP numbers have been cut by more than 50%, the old timer has only missed 9 games. That is an extra ~15 goals you can allocate to his 65 goals the past 2 seasons however you choose. When he gets Perry, Getzlaf and Selanne PP time, which is an increase of over 1 minute/game of PP time, he will score 40 goals. It is simple math really.


Quote:
Originally Posted by supert View Post
I said in an early posting that i would taken Ryan over Subban , base on what you hear in the news about him fighting with team mates . Now i think about it i would rather take Subban that then a cry baby Ryan . Crying over be mention in trade rumours , how dare him team try and get better .
Do you have a job? All the man wants is job security with his current employer at his current location, and surely you should be able to understand that.

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08-21-2012, 10:55 AM
  #140
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Hard to compare. Top D are more valuable than top Wingers. But Ryan is probably a better winger (compared to his peers) than Subban is a defender (compared to his peers).

Basically youre looking at a #2 Defenceman vs a top PowerForward Winger... Id say theyre fairly equal. Neither are franchise guys, but both are definitely core pieces, if that makes sense.

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08-21-2012, 11:23 AM
  #141
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Good question, Ryan might be the better of the two, but when it comes to value the fact that Subban is not only a D-men but a Right handed d-men, there is a lot of value in that.

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08-21-2012, 11:28 AM
  #142
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Some people here cant have watched much hockey. It's not even close.

Ryan>>>Subban

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08-21-2012, 11:32 AM
  #143
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I reckon if both teams were lacking what the other player brought to the mix, a straight up trade wouldn't be the craziest thing in the World.

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08-21-2012, 01:21 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
While I agree with some of what you're saying in contrast to other arguments - a mixture of sexy offensive and "defensive" stats is not it. Playing fantastic defense is the biggest part of what makes a great defender in the NHL, and that simply isn't reflected in hits, blocked shots or minutes played.
Agreed. Stats do not tell the whole story. However, they are useful tools to bring to a debate about how good a player is. I have watched Subban play over 100 NHL games, and seen his defensive game gain in leaps and bounds. His positional play has improved dramatically from his rookie year. I am not trying to compre him to Lidstrom, but I am saying that, having watched hockey for almost 4 decades, played it for a few years (never anything serious, I can not skate, shoot, pass...Lol), evaluated talent for various pools, debated players with a good friend who used to be a pro scout, followed multiple "experts" online, on the radio, and in print, I have been able to see how well Subban has already developed. At the same time, I use the statistics to help advance my opinion so that I can offer more than just another simple opinion. Seriously, if any opinion, without regard to any supporting factual evidence is valid, why are we even talking about the players in question? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but there has to be something substantive behind it to help bring it above the general "I am right and you are wrong" type of arguments we get in grade school.

As a defenceman, Subban hits, blocks shots, plays well positionally, and is getting better at reducing his mental lapses. His biggest problem is when he gets too aggressive in the offensive aspects of his game, not in his defensive game. He is not elite. Not yet. However, it can be argued he is already a top 20 defenceman in the NHL AND the statistics exist to support such an opinion. That is all I have been saying throughout this discussion. I don't live hockey by reading stats pages. I watch it as much as posdible, looking at stats to augment my existing knowledge.

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08-21-2012, 01:28 PM
  #145
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Ryan. Simply put, he's way more proven. He's proven himself to be a top line winger.

Subban is still potential, but let's say he reaches it...his ceiling isn't that much higher than Ryan. But there's more risk--he might not get all the way there.

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08-21-2012, 01:31 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by gliff View Post
You are right, he does all those things and is a very solid 2-way defender. I justr dont think he is there yet. I clearly had him bolded in red and I said I thought those players would be #1's with a little bit of seasoning. I am not here to bash Subban. I have said multiple times that he is good and can very easily be a #1.

I just dont think he is yet.

And I would never say Subban is a #5. I honestly do not remember that conversation but I will take your word for it.
I would agree with a statement that says he is not a top 10 defenceman in the NHL. Yet. I think where we are crossing swords is in trying to understand what is meant by a "#1" defenceman. If you mean a top 10 in the league, we agree. If you mean top 15 in the league, we would not argue too hard. Anything else would get us at odds.

As far as Subban being a #5 on the Ducks, that was in an argument from last year about Subban and Fowler. It is no real big deal, just something that has stuck in my memory because of how ludicrous a statement it was at the time, no offence meant.

In any case, I think Ryan holds slightly more trade value than Subban at this time, and while I would be a bit upset, I would not lynch Bergevin if he traded Subban for Ryan. Of course, both teams' fans should be a little upset if a trade involving two terrific young fan favourite players occurs.

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08-21-2012, 04:35 PM
  #147
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Value wise, I think its fair.

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08-21-2012, 04:41 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by AwesomePanthers View Post
Some people here cant have watched much hockey. It's not even close.

Ryan>>>Subban
Is that statement for yourself ?

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08-21-2012, 06:49 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by gliff View Post
lul what? 4 straight 30 goal seasons with no PP time in the last 2.
I mean his 65 ppg career average.Christ P.K ppg is 47 ansd is only going to get better and he's a defenseman.

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08-21-2012, 06:55 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by loadie View Post
Just like he said. Ryan's production dropped from his best year, so therefore like the poster he quoted said, he must be settling into becoming a solid player after showing early success. All players peak at 22 on HF.
Exactly.I only quoted from the other poster. Ryan has not lived to his high expectation after his first two seasons.He settled down to his 30 goal 60+ point player.

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