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CHL Players Forming a Union? (Mod: Canadian Hockey League, aka junior)

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Old
08-21-2012, 08:15 PM
  #26
ottawah
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
it would probably have to be the players.. The teams or leagues make 0 sense to pay into a players association
And the players get $50 a week? Cost of running such a widespread union? More than the players get .....

I am just failing to see how this can work.

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08-21-2012, 08:23 PM
  #27
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Nope, it's George Laraque.

So either they've mispelled his name (which is hilarious) or they've found someone similarly named and are using that name to try to gain credibility.
http://www.tsn.ca/chl/story/?id=403571

The article by The Star says "Georges Laraque named head of fledgling junior hockey union".

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08-21-2012, 08:30 PM
  #28
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twitter account working for me again, seems legit.
sidenote: looking at the list of people the account is following, lots of journalists and former/current CHLers. And, oddly, the Texas Rangers.

in that case, BGL seems like a terrible choice to me.

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08-21-2012, 10:54 PM
  #29
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A few reasons why I think this union could fail:

1. Most players only have 3-4 years in these leagues, some even fewer. It's not like professional sports (20+ year career) or other industries (30+ year career), where your long-term benefits, safety, pension, and salary are very important. Most of these players are more interested in playing high levels of hockey, getting noticed by NHL teams, and meeting good looking girls than education packages and even cash. Essentially, these leagues are more of a stepping stone to a possible career than an actual career. Since there's no long-term "investment" into these leagues by the players, there's less motivation to make improvements.

2. With such a short time to get noticed by NHL teams, I think very few junior players would risk going on strike and losing a season. Striking is essentially the only leverage unions have over employers. Sure, they could go play in junior A, but it would be hard to imagine them displacing a few hundred players. That's not going to be pretty, especially with those players fighting for full-ride scholarships.

3. Even if they're willing to go on strike, many union members don't cross picket lines because they know they'll get ragged on for the next 20 years. A player with one year left in his hockey career probably couldn't care less. Plus, it would be much easier to get replacement players than compared to professional leagues. Major juniors teams could court non-NCAA bound junior A players and change the rules to allow more imports from Europe. They could also try and poach players for US leagues to fill spots.

4. Top players already get treated fairly well by teams. There are always rumours of players getting 6 figures under the table. I think it was reported that Crosby got a % of all the gate revenue for all the arenas he played in. I'm not sure top players would mess around with a good thing. You're already hearing comments from a few top players in the OHL echoing the same thing. You would have to think that a union would ask to see the books of all the teams, meaning the reasons/details for recruiting violations (i.e. Windsor) would be harder to sweep under the rug.

5. While the NCAA would never give major junior players elligibility as is, there has always been a small push to get an exception from the NCAA much like Olympic athletes get exceptions for medal prize money. This won't happen, but the creation of a union essentially kills any small chance that remained.

There's a few more reasons, but these ones seem to stick out the most.

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08-21-2012, 11:39 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
The NCAA players are credited with scholarships.. If they wanted to form a union, the NCAA would probably strip their scholarships and take their eligibility away
A player's union would be able to kill those provisions fairly easily. The whole point is that it would allow the players collective power to change a system unjust to them, which the current system absolutely is. The real obstacle is not the NCAA doing anything, since once the union was formed, the NCAA would be forced to negotiate with them, it's that thanks to right wing, anti labor national policy*, it's quite difficult to form a union in the US.


*This is a statement of fact about the legal environment in the US. It is not intended to be a political statement or start an argument about the same. I don't want to go down that road, and I doubt the mods do either.

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08-21-2012, 11:45 PM
  #31
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What would they do about collecting dues? Would the players pay, the parents, the individual teams, or the leagues themselves?
The CHLPA is proposing that $1.50 be added to each ticket sold. Yeah, fans are really going to want to pay more for that kind of crap.

Not to mention that that's a boatload of money each year, which will do nothing more than line the union organizer's pockets.

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08-22-2012, 12:58 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by cptjeff View Post
A player's union would be able to kill those provisions fairly easily. The whole point is that it would allow the players collective power to change a system unjust to them, which the current system absolutely is. The real obstacle is not the NCAA doing anything, since once the union was formed, the NCAA would be forced to negotiate with them, it's that thanks to right wing, anti labor national policy*, it's quite difficult to form a union in the US.
The student/athletes are not "employed" by or provided scholarships by the NCAA. They are enrolled at 346 separate public and private NCAA Division 1 schools. The NCAA could not be forced to negotiate with them. It may be theoretically possible to organize and force individual institutions to engage in bargaining - but given the general lack of success in organizing graduate students who are actual employees, I wouldn't hold my breath.

The NLRB has ruled that student employees at private institutions are not subject to the NLRA and do not have the right to unionize - individual institutions are free to recognize and negotiate with unions if they choose, but cannot be forced to. Student athletes at public institutions would be subject to a patchwork of 50 different state public employee laws and any unionization would be as much a political issue as a legal one.

And even if athletes tried to negotiate with their universities, they could still be sanctioned by the NCAA's eligibility requirements - barring successful anti-trust action against the NCAA.


Last edited by kdb209: 08-22-2012 at 01:13 AM.
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08-22-2012, 06:17 AM
  #33
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It makes sense when you consider that some of the junior teams make a tidy profit yet players still get the same $50 weekly allowance that players received 30+ years ago.

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08-22-2012, 06:29 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
It makes sense when you consider that some of the junior teams make a tidy profit yet players still get the same $50 weekly allowance that players received 30+ years ago.
50$ a week and university scholarships are kind of a huge deal. Means the kid doesn't have to have a part time job or pay for school...

School these days is expensive, on average across Canada a second year Engineering student pays about 10 grand in tuition.

50$ a week is decent spending money, especially when they get room and board. They playing a game at an amateur level for free. These kids not in the CHL to make money, they in the CHL because they either love the game or want to make it to the NHL.

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08-22-2012, 06:53 AM
  #35
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This is not going to end well. Bye bye CHL. If there is a CHL players union, in 10 years 1/2 the teams will no longer exist.

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08-22-2012, 08:18 AM
  #36
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There is a huge amount of money to be made by the CHLPA organizers, if it comes to be. In reading the proposed union documents, there are a lot of administrative type roles - all with their hands out.

http://jrhockeyrecruit.com/2011/05/o...ndance-report/

Based on those attendance figures, over 66,000 fans attended each OHL game in 2010-2011. Based on 34 regular season games, that's 2,256,000 in the regular season. The CHLPA is proposing a surcharge of $1.50 per ticket, generating over $3.3 million per year, for the OHL alone.

For that kind of money, I'll take responsibility to pay education costs for graduating players who don't go on to play full-time professionally, and who want to attend post-secondary school.

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08-22-2012, 08:24 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
There is a huge amount of money to be made by the CHLPA organizers, if it comes to be. In reading the proposed union documents, there are a lot of administrative type roles - all with their hands out.

http://jrhockeyrecruit.com/2011/05/o...ndance-report/

Based on those attendance figures, over 66,000 fans attended each OHL game in 2010-2011. Based on 34 regular season games, that's 2,256,000 in the regular season. The CHLPA is proposing a surcharge of $1.50 per ticket, generating over $3.3 million per year, for the OHL alone.

For that kind of money, I'll take responsibility to pay education costs for graduating players who don't go on to play full-time professionally, and who want to attend post-secondary school.
The leader of this thing is Georges Laraque. Says everything.

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08-22-2012, 08:28 AM
  #38
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The leader of this thing is Georges Laraque. Says everything.
Definitely does, but he was only appointed yesterday.

I did hear a comment about Gilles Lupien (I believe he's an agent?) estimating the value of each CHL franchise at $60-$70 million.

If that's the case, Eugene Melnyk got taken to the cleaners, only getting around $8 million for Mississauga this spring.

I don't think M. Lupien has a clue about junior hockey.

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08-22-2012, 09:59 AM
  #39
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Definitely does, but he was only appointed yesterday.

I did hear a comment about Gilles Lupien (I believe he's an agent?) estimating the value of each CHL franchise at $60-$70 million.

If that's the case, Eugene Melnyk got taken to the cleaners, only getting around $8 million for Mississauga this spring.

I don't think M. Lupien has a clue about junior hockey.
$60-$70M? What an absolute crock.

Every recent sale or expansion fee for a CHL team has a price tag in the $5M-$10M range. For instance, in 2004 the Oilers placed a $5M offer for any WHL team to relocate to Edmonton, considered to be around $1M over market value at that time. I also saw a recent estimate for the London Knights (the Cadillac of CHL franchises) at $12M.

Sounds like Lupien added 0's on to those numbers.

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08-22-2012, 03:50 PM
  #40
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mirtle 12:22pm via TweetDeck I've talked to former stars in CHL who received only $3,500 a year tuition and couldn't attend the university they wanted to due to costs.




I haven't checked costs lately, but think that in California, state colleges/universities are up to $25k just in tuition. (Private colleges seem to start ~$30k)

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08-22-2012, 04:24 PM
  #41
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mirtle 12:22pm via TweetDeck I've talked to former stars in CHL who received only $3,500 a year tuition and couldn't attend the university they wanted to due to costs.




I haven't checked costs lately, but think that in California, state colleges/universities are up to $25k just in tuition. (Private colleges seem to start ~$30k)
University costs are generally quite a bit cheaper in Canada than in the United States. Still though, $3,500/year is not enough to attend school in most provinces. Here's a graphic put together by the National Post comparing the average university tuition in each province:



Out-of-province students are treated much like international students, meaning a student from Ontario (highest average cost) couldn't go to a Quebec university (lowest average cost) and only pay $2,500 in tuition (for example).

Note too that college in Canada (and most Commonwealth countries) generally refers to a technical or applied arts school, somewhat like a community college in the United States (though not exactly the same).

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08-22-2012, 04:27 PM
  #42
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http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/latest...es-some-muscle

george laraque interview.

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08-22-2012, 04:48 PM
  #43
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http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/cana...622/story.html

CHL press release:

Quote:
“There has been much media speculation in the previous two days surrounding the attempted organization of our 1,300 players by an organization called the Canadian Hockey League Players’ Association.

To date, the league has not received any formal notification on the formation of this association or any intent to organize our players. ...

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08-22-2012, 06:41 PM
  #44
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http://www.thepipelineshow.com/rss/

The Pipeline Show (8/21 ep) includes two segments discussion CHLPA.

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08-22-2012, 06:48 PM
  #45
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It makes sense when you consider that some of the junior teams make a tidy profit yet players still get the same $50 weekly allowance that players received 30+ years ago.
Keep in mind the $50 is spending money many players get room and board/all of there gear/education/gas money so you break it down its more then $50 per week.

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08-22-2012, 07:15 PM
  #46
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http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/junio...ant_questions/

Sportsnet's Spector on issues the CHLPA is raising.

For one, players have 18 months after leaving juniors to claim scholarships.

Second, players are limited to using scholarships to pay tuition at colleges/universities. Spector suggests that this could be expanded to include trade schools (say to learn welding, mechanic skills, etc.) or even allow the funds to be used to start a company (for aspiring entrepreneurs).

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08-22-2012, 09:52 PM
  #47
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University costs are generally quite a bit cheaper in Canada than in the United States. Still though, $3,500/year is not enough to attend school in most provinces. Here's a graphic put together by the National Post comparing the average university tuition in each province:



Out-of-province students are treated much like international students, meaning a student from Ontario (highest average cost) couldn't go to a Quebec university (lowest average cost) and only pay $2,500 in tuition (for example).

Note too that college in Canada (and most Commonwealth countries) generally refers to a technical or applied arts school, somewhat like a community college in the United States (though not exactly the same).
Canadian university fees are comparable to in-state university/college fees in the USA. The real difference is that most Canadians go to school in province, while Americans have a culture of often going out of state, which costs more. For example, all my cousins went to school out of state. The USA also has a lot of private schools which are more expensive, whereas the major universities in Canada are public.

I'm pretty sure Quebec is the only place that would treat out of province students differently due to their education being substantially subsidized by taxpayers. If you're from Alberta and go to school in BC, you pay the same tuition.

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08-23-2012, 12:15 AM
  #48
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And the players get $50 a week? Cost of running such a widespread union? More than the players get .....

I am just failing to see how this can work.
Maybe because you're making 50$ a week and you got nothing to lose since only a small % of CHL players actually make the NHL.

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08-23-2012, 12:20 AM
  #49
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http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/junio...ohl_whl_qmjhl/

Sportsnet's King on situation.

Discusses the premature reveal of potential union, issue that union will have to go team-by-team (rather than at CHL or WHL/OHL/QMJHL league level). Includes commentary on CHL pres (aka OHL pres Branch) and CHL VP (aka QMJHL pres) statements.

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08-23-2012, 02:10 AM
  #50
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theCHLPA 12:05am via Facebook great Sportsnet 960 radio show posted; 3 ex-CHL's agree its time for the #CHLPA fb.me/1XBsX41GL

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