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Vancouver - Chicago (Lu, Edler, Kane, Hammer)

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Old
08-21-2012, 10:53 PM
  #301
Chris Hansen
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And Kane spent more than half of the entire season playing out of position... everyone seems to ignore that.

HF has soured on Kane big time, mostly for silly reasons that aren't even related to his on-ice play. But that's to be expected on this board.

Alex Edler worth more than him, ahahaha. The guy who has failed every time he has been put in the role as Vancouver's #1 guy? The guy who simply isn't all that great at shutting down the opposing team's best? Sorry, new contract or not, he does not have equal value to Kane.

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08-21-2012, 10:59 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Al Swearengen View Post
So, what if this was the new deal?



Kane
Hjalmarsson



Edler (signed to a 5 year, 5.15-5.85 million dollar contract beginning 2013)
Luongo
I said I wouldn't do it, based on the premise Edler will re-sign with us. Edler(with an extension) =Kane in terms of their value to our team. Luongo>>Hjaalmarsson, in terms of what we should realistically let him go for(roster player+ prospect+ pick). If Chicago added a 1st + Beach, or Saad + 2nd, I would consider doing this.

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08-21-2012, 11:02 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
And Kane spent more than half of the entire season playing out of position... everyone seems to ignore that.

HF has soured on Kane big time, mostly for silly reasons that aren't even related to his on-ice play. But that's to be expected on this board.

Alex Edler worth more than him, ahahaha. The guy who has failed every time he has been put in the role as Vancouver's #1 guy? The guy who simply isn't all that great at shutting down the opposing team's best? Sorry, new contract or not, he does not have equal value to Kane.
He's a top-15 defenseman in the league. to not call him a No.1 is laughable. Replacing Edler with Kane also makes us even more easy to push around in a heated series.

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08-22-2012, 02:17 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
He's a top-15 defenseman in the league. to not call him a No.1 is laughable. Replacing Edler with Kane also makes us even more easy to push around in a heated series.
I think that's worth it in exchange for having four elite top-6 players plus Burrows and Booth. It would make opponents top pairings focus on one or the other. I think, considering how good this team would be at puck control and team defense with that forward corp, its a gain.

The bolded forwards can play some serious defense:

Sedin Sedin Burrows (14.2)
Booth Kesler Kane (15.55)
Higgins Schroeder/Lapierre Kassian (3.795 w/ Schroeder, 3.695 w/Lappy)
Lapeirre/Weiss Malhotra Hansen (4.85 w/ Lappy, 2.45 w/ Weiss)
Raymond (2.275)

This defense is still probably at the good end of the middle third of the NHL, 8th-14th potential:

Hamhuis Bieksa (9.1)
Garrison Hjalmarsson (7.1)
Ballard Tanev (5.1)
Alberts (1.225)

Schneider (4.0)
Lack (?)


Cap hit: 71.195 before Lack, probably close enough to a 70.3m cap after Kesler gets back, if not, don`t dress Raymond until we`re good again.


Last edited by Al Swearengen: 08-22-2012 at 02:23 AM.
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08-22-2012, 02:33 AM
  #305
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Meh. I'd rather play hardball and ask for Hossa straight up.
Otherwise I'd want to get a futures package rather than trade away members of our core, especially for Kane(who I'll admit I'm biased against). Right now I think we're almost completely set, and personally I think Kassian will break out this season, if given a chance. Oherwise we can make a move for Corey Perry at the deadline or something.

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08-22-2012, 04:01 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
He's a top-15 defenseman in the league. to not call him a No.1 is laughable. Replacing Edler with Kane also makes us even more easy to push around in a heated series.
It's interesting to see Canucks fans in this thread tout Edler so much, given that so many of them were calling for his head in the L.A. series.

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08-22-2012, 04:09 AM
  #307
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It's interesting to see Canucks fans in this thread tout Edler so much, given that so many of them were calling for his head in the L.A. series.
Edler's bad series against LA meant that it would since then be a constant part of discussions about his value in trade proposals.

For most of us, knowing that was his lowest point so far, we kind of accept it now once the dust's has settled. Of course we aren't happy about it, but it's not like anyone in the NHL plays mistake-free their whole career.

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08-22-2012, 04:10 AM
  #308
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It's interesting to see Canucks fans in this thread tout Edler so much, given that so many of them were calling for his head in the L.A. series.
Yeah, the Kings really got to him that series and made him look alot worse than he is. But it shouldn't be an indictment of him overall and he is still a #1 and I agree with top 15 in the NHL. Even after he looked like a fool in the playoffs.

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08-22-2012, 12:05 PM
  #309
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Lu and Edler especially are being over rated in this thread. You couldnt get both plus for Kane.

This is Patrick Kane we are talking about. A big time player who is clutch when it counts. Lu has a history of choking out when it matters and this fascination with Edler, who is nowhere near a number one but a more comfortable number 2/3 defenseman for Patrick friggin Kane? Give me a break. Not even throwing Lu's albatross contract into the picture and anybody who thinks, not even including the once was suppossed to be the next Lidstrom but is now just a peon who blocks shots Hammer, you can get one of the best wingers in the game for Lu and Edler without giving up more to compensate is just truly laughable.

I have no problem with the Hawks trying to get Lu. Its one of the places he has stated he would like to go and possibly being in a Stanley Cup winning enviorment, something he doesnt have while in Vancouver, and being around players who have actually won a Cup might go along way for him mentally. You are not giving up Patrick Kane for Lu, tho.

The Canucks can keep Edler, and the fantasy he is a number one defenseman, which might possibly go hand in hand with their failures in the playoffs is refreshing to a casual observer such as myself.

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08-22-2012, 12:11 PM
  #310
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Calling Edler a 2/3 defenseman is like calling Kane a 2/3 line tweener. Why exactly is it you feel he isn't a number 1 defenseman?

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08-22-2012, 12:13 PM
  #311
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And Kane spent more than half of the entire season playing out of position... everyone seems to ignore that.

HF has soured on Kane big time, mostly for silly reasons that aren't even related to his on-ice play. But that's to be expected on this board.

Alex Edler worth more than him, ahahaha. The guy who has failed every time he has been put in the role as Vancouver's #1 guy? The guy who simply isn't all that great at shutting down the opposing team's best? Sorry, new contract or not, he does not have equal value to Kane.
Edler and Kane have similar value, he is in fact a top 15 defender in the NHL. He hasn't failed as Vancouver's #1 at all, I don't really know what anyone expects from the guy. Excluding last playoffs, he's been a post season performer. He isn't the best shutdown guy in the league, but he's well above average. His physicallity and offensive prowress put him over the top.

I realize you're more trying to promote Kane than slander Edler here, but you've done so very poorly. If Edler had a new contract, his value would be similar to Kane's. Currently he does not, hence Kane > Edler.

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08-22-2012, 01:38 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Edler and Kane have similar value, he is in fact a top 15 defender in the NHL. He hasn't failed as Vancouver's #1 at all, I don't really know what anyone expects from the guy. Excluding last playoffs, he's been a post season performer. He isn't the best shutdown guy in the league, but he's well above average. His physicallity and offensive prowress put him over the top.

I realize you're more trying to promote Kane than slander Edler here, but you've done so very poorly. If Edler had a new contract, his value would be similar to Kane's. Currently he does not, hence Kane > Edler.
A top 2-3 RW in the entire NHL inherently has more value than a defenseman barely in the top-15 who is not elite at shutting down the best players in the NHL but instead works more effectively as a #2 two-way supporting player.

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08-22-2012, 01:55 PM
  #313
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A top 2-3 RW in the entire NHL inherently has more value than a defenseman barely in the top-15 who is not elite at shutting down the best players in the NHL but instead works more effectively as a #2 two-way supporting player.
Why does Kane get to be a top 2-3 RW while Edler is "barely a top 15 defenseman"

If you compare only LDs, he moves significantly higher up the list. Twisting the facts to suit your argument doesn't make you right.

Not to mention I think Ovechkin, Hossa, Perry, Kessel, Iginla can all be considered better RWers.

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08-22-2012, 02:11 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Calling Edler a 2/3 defenseman is like calling Kane a 2/3 line tweener. Why exactly is it you feel he isn't a number 1 defenseman?
Edler is not currently functioning as a #1 defenceman on the Canucks. He leads defencemen in TOI/game but only barely, and that's largely due to the PP. Edler is 3rd on your team in Even strength TOI/game by a fair margin. He played a 1:10 less ES TOI/game than Edler and was 4th on your team in SH TOI/game.

Edler is a #2/3 defenceman who has skills on the PP. That's how he has always played. That's how his match ups and ice time have always worked.

Edler had a great year offensively, but not defensively. That is refelcted by the fact the only defenceman with a worse +/- on the team was Aaron Rome.

The Canucks do not currently have any true #1 defencemen. They have Edler, Bieksa, and Hamhuis, who are all great #2-3 guys. Pull any of them outside of Vancouver's system and you'd see a dropoff. Exactly like you did with Ehrhoff. Noone is going to trade Vancouver #1 defencemen value for any of those guys.

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08-22-2012, 02:19 PM
  #315
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Edler is not currently functioning as a #1 defenceman on the Canucks. He leads defencemen in TOI/game but only barely, and that's largely due to the PP. Edler is 3rd on your team in Even strength TOI/game by a fair margin. He played a 1:10 less ES TOI/game than Edler and was 4th on your team in SH TOI/game.

Edler is a #2/3 defenceman who has skills on the PP. That's how he has always played. That's how his match ups and ice time have always worked.

Edler had a great year offensively, but not defensively. That is refelcted by the fact the only defenceman with a worse +/- on the team was Aaron Rome.

The Canucks do not currently have any true #1 defencemen. They have Edler, Bieksa, and Hamhuis, who are all great #2-3 guys. Pull any of them outside of Vancouver's system and you'd see a dropoff. Exactly like you did with Ehrhoff. Noone is going to trade Vancouver #1 defencemen value for any of those guys.
I'd like you to tell me which defensemen in the league are better than Edler. Find me at least 20 that you can honestly say are better and I'll give it a rest.

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08-22-2012, 02:28 PM
  #316
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I'd like you to tell me which defensemen in the league are better than Edler. Find me at least 20 that you can honestly say are better and I'll give it a rest.
Well firstly, there are not 15 true #1 defencemen in the league. Just as there are not 15 true #1 centres.

A player like Edler is on the level of a guy like Seabrook. Both will fluctaute in and out of that top 15 position based on how their play is at the time. Both are not true #1s though and can easily drop out of that top 15 position.

There are probably 8-10 true #1 guys in the league, of which Edler is not one. Beyond that you have another 20-30 defenceman who fluctuate every year. Edler falls somewhere within that second tier group. When he's hot, he at the top. When he's not, he's near the bottom.

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08-22-2012, 02:39 PM
  #317
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Well firstly, there are not 15 true #1 defencemen in the league. Just as there are not 15 true #1 centres.

A player like Edler is on the level of a guy like Seabrook. Both will fluctaute in and out of that top 15 position based on how their play is at the time. Both are not true #1s though and can easily drop out of that top 15 position.

There are probably 8-10 true #1 guys in the league, of which Edler is not one. Beyond that you have another 20-30 defenceman who fluctuate every year. Edler falls somewhere within that second tier group. When he's hot, he at the top. When he's not, he's near the bottom.
Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there are far more than 8-10 #1 defensemen in the league.

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08-22-2012, 02:47 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there are far more than 8-10 #1 defensemen in the league.
Do you disagree with my statement that Edler is on the same level as Seabrook? Would you say that Edler is clearly better than Bieksa?

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08-22-2012, 02:53 PM
  #319
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Always viewed the term "legitimate #1 defenseman" to mean a guy I'd be 100% comfortable with playing the most minutes on a team I root for to contend for the Cup.

Guys like Chara, Weber, Keith, Pietrangelo (whose insane hype I try not to buy into too much, but do have to admit he is a fantastic player and top-10 talent), etc.

Edler is in the next highest tier, but he is still clearly below these guys. He does not handle the major shutdown duties even on his own team. Granted, it isn't his fault that the coaching staff chooses to use him that way. But I have trouble considering him a legitimate #1 defenseman when he is not notably great at being a shutdown presence. Is he a physical force? Absolutely. Solid offensive ability? Of course. I'd love him at the point on Chicago's depressingly pathetic PP.

But is he a guy who has proven to be able to shut down the best players in the world come the time for huge, important games? Would I trust Edler to be able to do that?
No, probably not, mainly because he never really has. If he was a genuine #1 defenseman, then it wouldn't seem so apparent that Vancouver instead has a glut of good #2 guys. He would stand out, but he does not.



If we want to take a less refined view of the "Kane vs. Edler value" argument, though...

Just think of coming onto the HF trade board one day.
You see "Patrick Kane traded to ___ in exchange for ___."
The next day, you see "Alex Edler traded to ___ in exchange for ___."
Does your mind not automatically assume a larger return for Kane than Edler? I'm not trying to argue anything here - obviously this is a tremendously subjective question I'm asking. I'm just curious.
Essentially, "Patrick Kane traded to..." seems like a far bigger deal (in the sense that it will yield a far more interesting and substantial return) than "Alex Edler traded to..."

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08-22-2012, 02:56 PM
  #320
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Do you disagree with my statement that Edler is on the same level as Seabrook? Would you say that Edler is clearly better than Bieksa?
I would take Edler over Seabrook, but it's close. Edler is clearly better than Bieksa.

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08-22-2012, 03:01 PM
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Always viewed the term "legitimate #1 defenseman" to mean a guy I'd be 100% comfortable with playing the most minutes on a team I root for to contend for the Cup.

Guys like Chara, Weber, Keith, Pietrangelo (whose insane hype I try not to buy into too much, but do have to admit he is a fantastic player and top-10 talent), etc.

Edler is in the next highest tier, but he is still clearly below these guys. He does not handle the major shutdown duties even on his own team. Granted, it isn't his fault that the coaching staff chooses to use him that way. But I have trouble considering him a legitimate #1 defenseman when he is not notably great at being a shutdown presence. Is he a physical force? Absolutely. Solid offensive ability? Of course. I'd love him at the point on Chicago's depressingly pathetic PP.

But is he a guy who has proven to be able to shut down the best players in the world come the time for huge, important games? Would I trust Edler to be able to do that?
No, probably not, mainly because he never really has. If he was a genuine #1 defenseman, then it wouldn't seem so apparent that Vancouver instead has a glut of good #2 guys. He would stand out, but he does not.



If we want to take a less refined view of the "Kane vs. Edler value" argument, though...

Just think of coming onto the HF trade board one day.
You see "Patrick Kane traded to ___ in exchange for ___."
The next day, you see "Alex Edler traded to ___ in exchange for ___."
Does your mind not automatically assume a larger return for Kane than Edler? I'm not trying to argue anything here - obviously this is a tremendously subjective question I'm asking. I'm just curious.
Essentially, "Patrick Kane traded to..." seems like a far bigger deal (in the sense that it will yield a far more interesting and substantial return) than "Alex Edler traded to..."
Well, Edler does only have one year left, so his value to us(since he will most likely re-sign) is higher than to other teams.

But probably the biggest factor is that Kane is more well known, former 1st overall, etc, so people expect more from him.

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08-22-2012, 03:01 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Always viewed the term "legitimate #1 defenseman" to mean a guy I'd be 100% comfortable with playing the most minutes on a team I root for to contend for the Cup.

Guys like Chara, Weber, Keith, Pietrangelo (whose insane hype I try not to buy into too much, but do have to admit he is a fantastic player and top-10 talent), etc.

Edler is in the next highest tier, but he is still clearly below these guys. He does not handle the major shutdown duties even on his own team. Granted, it isn't his fault that the coaching staff chooses to use him that way. But I have trouble considering him a legitimate #1 defenseman when he is not notably great at being a shutdown presence. Is he a physical force? Absolutely. Solid offensive ability? Of course. I'd love him at the point on Chicago's depressingly pathetic PP.

But is he a guy who has proven to be able to shut down the best players in the world come the time for huge, important games? Would I trust Edler to be able to do that?
No, probably not, mainly because he never really has. If he was a genuine #1 defenseman, then it wouldn't seem so apparent that Vancouver instead has a glut of good #2 guys. He would stand out, but he does not.



If we want to take a less refined view of the "Kane vs. Edler value" argument, though...

Just think of coming onto the HF trade board one day.
You see "Patrick Kane traded to ___ in exchange for ___."
The next day, you see "Alex Edler traded to ___ in exchange for ___."
Does your mind not automatically assume a larger return for Kane than Edler? I'm not trying to argue anything here - obviously this is a tremendously subjective question I'm asking. I'm just curious.
Essentially, "Patrick Kane traded to..." seems like a far bigger deal (in the sense that it will yield a far more interesting and substantial return) than "Alex Edler traded to..."
To add to this. It's not even about who is about the best player. Edler becomes a UFA in one year. Kane has three more years. Lock up Edler on a long term contract and things may change.

Edler's contract is an absolute steal for one year, but does not change the fact he has the option to walk after that year. Teams will be, as a result, less likely to give up large assets.

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08-22-2012, 03:01 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I would take Edler over Seabrook, but it's close. Edler is clearly better than Bieksa.
That's an interesting one. Edler certainly has the offensive edge. Meanwhile, Seabrook has proven himself to be a more effective defensive and shutdown player. In a perfect world, a better player than either of them is your #1 defenseman if you're looking to contend for the Cup.

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08-22-2012, 03:03 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I would take Edler over Seabrook, but it's close. Edler is clearly better than Bieksa.
I don't know about "clearly". I live in Vancouver, so see a lot of Canucks games, both live and on television. Bieksa had the better year last year.

So if you agree with me that Seabrook and Edler are very close, I hope you can see how many would not consider Edler to be a #1 defenceman.

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08-22-2012, 03:04 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Well, Edler does only have one year left, so his value to us(since he will most likely re-sign) is higher than to other teams.

But probably the biggest factor is that Kane is more well known, former 1st overall, etc, so people expect more from him.
Should've added that it was with the assumption that Edler is signed long term - my mistake.

Still, among the hockey fans that post on HF, I don't think Kane is more well-known at all. Everyone on this board is a hardcore hockey fan - that's why we're here posting in the dog days of summer. Everyone knows who Edler is.

Kane simply has more value. Very young, dynamic, clutch wingers with proven playoff experience and fantastic offensive potential are far harder to trade for or sign than #2 defensemen who are more known for offense than some semblance of elite shutdown ability.

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