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Ownership Cluster**** Thread: This is the last one, Really!

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08-20-2012, 02:38 PM
  #726
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Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
The fact that the Sharks can sell out every game, including 2 playoff games, but not turn a profit, shows something is wrong with the current setup.
A team's financial success will depend not only on how many fans they can bring in, but on how much revenue they can get from each fan (through tickets, parking, etc.). San Jose's average ticket prices are reported to be about 50% or less than teams at the top end (e.g. Toronto, Winnipeg, Montreal) (http://www.fancostexperience.com/pag...fci_pdfs/6.pdf).

So, those top price teams could have half-empty arenas all year and still pull in as much ticket revenue as the Sharks.

(note: I am not vouching for the accuracy of the report, but use the reference to illustrate that there are very large differences in pricing).

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08-20-2012, 02:46 PM
  #727
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I understand that Whilee, but can the Sharks expect to have the same turnout with higher ticket prices?

It depends on the market you live in, and the demand for tickets. Sharks are a hot ticket, for sure. But with revenue sharing, while the current ownership group is ok with losing money, what do the others thing about this, knowing they sold out every game and still made a loss?

I don't know what the Sharks salary cap is, that could be a part of it too. Perhaps they are paying too much to their players, but they said they are ok with it. I'm sure most owners wouldn't be ok with this. They invest in something to make money, unless they are true fans and want to see their team win, and the losses from their sporting team is less than the massive revenues from their other ventures.

There's too many variabilities associated with the Sharks tbh.

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08-20-2012, 02:52 PM
  #728
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Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
I understand that Whilee, but can the Sharks expect to have the same turnout with higher ticket prices?

It depends on the market you live in, and the demand for tickets. Sharks are a hot ticket, for sure. But with revenue sharing, while the current ownership group is ok with losing money, what do the others thing about this, knowing they sold out every game and still made a loss?

I don't know what the Sharks salary cap is, that could be a part of it too. Perhaps they are paying too much to their players, but they said they are ok with it. I'm sure most owners wouldn't be ok with this. They invest in something to make money, unless they are true fans and want to see their team win, and the losses from their sporting team is less than the massive revenues from their other ventures.

There's too many variabilities associated with the Sharks tbh.
If markets are struggling financially and are unable to increase revenue, then there are only a couple of options that don't involve contraction / relocation: 1) force the players to take less salary, 2) force high revenue teams to share more revenue with low revenue teams. The players hate the first option, and the owners (in high revenue markets) don't like the second option. That's why the NHL is facing a lockout. At some point, players will have to decide whether they are willing to forfeit salary to have teams / jobs in markets that can't afford them. There is only so much that owners in high revenue markets can expect to share with weaker markets.

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08-20-2012, 03:25 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
The fact that the Sharks can sell out every game, including 2 playoff games, but not turn a profit, shows something is wrong with the current setup.
Agreed. The Sharks are one of the model organizations from the past 20 years of expansion teams. Selling out every game, icing a competitive team, reasonable non-payroll expenses, and yet operating income remains in the red.

Without debating the merits of player share reductions vs. increased revenue sharing I will just say the new CBA should create a landscape where a team like San Jose is at the very least breaking even, if not turning a small profit each year.

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08-20-2012, 03:32 PM
  #730
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Considering the creative accounting that goes on today and how the franchises don't have to open their books to the public, I don't believe everything I read with regards to what the numbers are printed.

If the Sharks are losing money, they have a sweetheart lease deal from what I hear will keep them going in San Jose.

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08-20-2012, 04:07 PM
  #731
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Finals Coyotes Salary Cost: $55,059,462
http://www.capgeek.com/archive/team....5&year_id=2011

Final San Jose Sharks Salary Cost: $61,423,233
http://www.capgeek.com/archive/team....3&year_id=2011

Salary Cap Range for 2011: $48.3-$64.3 million
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=566916

So according to this, the Sharks spent about $6 million more than the Coyotes. Obviously they were going for it and I think it resulted in the loss based on what has been reported. I hate how people blame the league's issues on the Coyotes when its a league wide problem. The Coyotes outspent 8 other teams which kinda surprised me.

http://www.capgeek.com/archive/index.php?year_id=2011

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08-20-2012, 04:31 PM
  #732
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Originally Posted by naurutger View Post
Finals Coyotes Salary Cost: $55,059,462
http://www.capgeek.com/archive/team....5&year_id=2011
Those are cap figures, which can diverge from actual payroll. My estimate is the Yotes actual NHL payroll was about $52.7m, which includes the $1.75m to Sauer that may have been offset by insurance.

The biggest contributor to the difference was Rozy's $3m salary vs. a $5m cap hit.

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08-20-2012, 04:54 PM
  #733
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My estimate is the Yotes actual NHL payroll was about $52.7m, which includes the $1.75m to Sauer that may have been offset by insurance.
Sounds good to me; all of the cap stuff is way over my head.

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08-20-2012, 04:54 PM
  #734
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Clearly though, the NHL needs to fix the model since selling out the stadiums and having higher ticket prices is not resulting in profit for teams. I hope I am wrong but I think hooking up with NBC Sports is going in the wrong direction; its not going to produce demand for casual views in my opinion. In this day and age, you cant be a "gate league", you have to be a "good for tv" league.

Quote:
“I think as many as eight NHL owners would accept the NHLPA’s initial proposal,” The player agent said. “And there’s probably four to six others who would find the proposal acceptable enough that they could tweak a couple of things and live with it.”
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...wner-vs-owner/

Whatever the answers are, a lockout could kill the league in my opinion. In my thinking, I am reminded of the Arena Football lockout, sure some of the teams returned but its not close to what it once was (not apples to apples I know).

Potentially, 14 out of 29 teams can work with the NHLPA's proposal. I am assuming the Coyotes are not involved in this. I am hopeful the Coyotes are sold soon but I am worried about the long-term vision of the league.


Last edited by Rebranded Fan: 08-20-2012 at 05:00 PM. Reason: Added some random thoughts
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08-21-2012, 05:10 PM
  #735
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I didn't know were to stick this but since he wants the Coyotes gone, I thought it could go here. During the Council Meeting today:

Quote:
@LisaHalverstadt: #Glendale Councilman Phil Lieberman appears to have fallen asleep.

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08-21-2012, 05:30 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by naurutger View Post
I didn't know were to stick this but since he wants the Coyotes gone, I thought it could go here. During the Council Meeting today:
Has happened before.

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08-21-2012, 06:51 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by naurutger View Post
Potentially, 14 out of 29 teams can work with the NHLPA's proposal. I am assuming the Coyotes are not involved in this. I am hopeful the Coyotes are sold soon but I am worried about the long-term vision of the league.
You have to wonder if the owners are as united and immovable in their stance as Bettman/Daly would have us believe. I'd be interested to know which teams are willing to accept the PA's proposal, if only as a meaningful starting point.

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08-21-2012, 09:52 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by naurutger View Post
I didn't know were to stick this but since he wants the Coyotes gone, I thought it could go here. During the Council Meeting today:
When you are on a jury and fall asleep, they usually disqualify you...can we do that to Lieberman?

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08-21-2012, 11:25 PM
  #739
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Prospective Coyotes owner Greg Jamison is currently looking for investors and partners in an effort to buy the floundering franchise from the NHL. According to a recent report from The Phoenix Business Journal, Jamison is $20 million short of the money he needs to buy the Coyotes and keep them in Glendale.
$20 million is nothing to sneeze at. It doesn't sound like he's even close to purchasing the Coyotes. Exactly how long is the NHL willing to let these shenanigans go on for?

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08-22-2012, 12:05 AM
  #740
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Originally Posted by DPyro View Post
$20 million is nothing to sneeze at. It doesn't sound like he's even close to purchasing the Coyotes. Exactly how long is the NHL willing to let these shenanigans go on for?
Quote:
Two sources with knowledge of the three-year-old Coyotes ownership saga say Jamison now has the investors and partners in place to finally buy the Coyotes and a deal could close very soon.
http://m.bizjournals.com/phoenix/#/a...w/page_9072342

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08-22-2012, 12:08 AM
  #741
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Originally Posted by naurutger View Post
Thanks for correcting DPyro.

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08-22-2012, 01:16 AM
  #742
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Originally Posted by DPyro View Post
$20 million is nothing to sneeze at. It doesn't sound like he's even close to purchasing the Coyotes. Exactly how long is the NHL willing to let these shenanigans go on for?
Two more weeks.

(jack*** )

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08-22-2012, 06:57 AM
  #743
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Seriously, does Sunnucks just have two articles ready to re-run every couple of weeks - one that says "the deal is in trouble, $20M short" and the other that says "deal to close soon, Jamison has investors lined up"?

I feel like I've read this exact same article 2-3 times before, just with slightly different dates.

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08-22-2012, 09:33 AM
  #744
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Originally Posted by Clownquestion View Post
Seriously, does Sunnucks just have two articles ready to re-run every couple of weeks - one that says "the deal is in trouble, $20M short" and the other that says "deal to close soon, Jamison has investors lined up"?

I feel like I've read this exact same article 2-3 times before, just with slightly different dates.
Seconded. This ownership mess takes deja vu to a whole new level.

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08-22-2012, 10:20 AM
  #745
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That's because it will never end and nothing will ever happen.

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08-22-2012, 10:53 AM
  #746
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Originally Posted by naurutger View Post
He does throw out info hoping it sticks but this article was updated as of Friday, August 17, 2012. I haven't heard anything to the contrary and even in the council minutes from yesterday, Glendale was talking about how Jamison was calling people saying its about done. But as they stated yesterday, they have heard it before. Or was it all a dream in the sleepy man's head?

And if I may rant, its "Jamison" not "Jamieson". I have images of Mr Miyagi telling Greg to "Wax on, Wax off" when I see that spelling mistake (Jamie-Son).

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08-22-2012, 10:55 AM
  #747
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Originally Posted by SweYote View Post
Seconded. This ownership mess takes deja vu to a whole new level.
I find it difficult to understand why people continue to believe that GJ is what he says he is. This guy has been "nothing" since the day he stepped into this ownership discussion. He is attempting to buy a team using everyones money but his own, he was rarely in attendance this past year and judging by his silence in media circles he is nothing more than a front man for GB and the league while they wait for another market to become viable. He, and others were the shills used to fleece Glendale taxpayers out of 50MM extra dollars that the city could not afford. Whenever the city wises up pulls the AMF off the table and considers alternatives they will be always considered to be "suckers" for a supposed big guy in GB. Finally, if GJ is 20MM short in the purchase, where is he ever going to come up with the money to fund higher payrolls and all of the other bells and whistles he was supposedly bringing to the table?


Come on everyone, lets be honest, this is a bad business deal for any real self respecting investor! If it was such a great deal it would have been completed months ago. All of the COG machinations and league approvals are nothing but bumps in the road, not roadblocks. If he had the money and he had serious investors this would have been accomplished. Ask yourself, who would buy a team at premium price that is years, if ever, from making a profit while showcasing their product in an inaccessible location? Answer: nobody

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08-22-2012, 12:27 PM
  #748
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Originally Posted by mesamonster View Post
I find it difficult to understand why people continue to believe that GJ is what he says he is. This guy has been "nothing" since the day he stepped into this ownership discussion. He is attempting to buy a team using everyones money but his own, he was rarely in attendance this past year and judging by his silence in media circles he is nothing more than a front man for GB and the league while they wait for another market to become viable. He, and others were the shills used to fleece Glendale taxpayers out of 50MM extra dollars that the city could not afford. Whenever the city wises up pulls the AMF off the table and considers alternatives they will be always considered to be "suckers" for a supposed big guy in GB. Finally, if GJ is 20MM short in the purchase, where is he ever going to come up with the money to fund higher payrolls and all of the other bells and whistles he was supposedly bringing to the table?


Come on everyone, lets be honest, this is a bad business deal for any real self respecting investor! If it was such a great deal it would have been completed months ago. All of the COG machinations and league approvals are nothing but bumps in the road, not roadblocks. If he had the money and he had serious investors this would have been accomplished. Ask yourself, who would buy a team at premium price that is years, if ever, from making a profit while showcasing their product in an inaccessible location? Answer: nobody
You do like to bang the same drum don't you mesamonster. We will see I guess. Cheers.

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08-22-2012, 12:34 PM
  #749
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I find it difficult to understand why you keep repeating the same song despite having been tuned out. Do you believe you are going to convince Coyotes fans that all hope is lost and there never was any to begin with? Get serious.

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08-22-2012, 12:36 PM
  #750
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FYI, only $25 million has been sent from Glendale to the NHL (2010-2011 season). $20 million is still in escrow, unless I am wrong, and the other $5 million pledge is still in limbo from my understanding (and might not be due if the playoff revenues were enough as speculated for the 2011-2012 season). I know people throw the $50 million figure around but that depends on what is actually collected----end rant.

April 28
Quote:
NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said this week the total amount Glendale owes could be reduced "to the extent additional playoff revenue continues to be generated," as the city's bill is tied to costs the league incurs to operate the arena and related businesses.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...#ixzz24IZMxfhQ

As of July 26:
Quote:
@LisaHalverstadt
#Glendale spokeswoman: #NHL has yet to send $25M arena management bill. There also haven't been any negotiations to extend the agreement.
July 31:
Quote:
@LisaHalverstadt
#NHL, #Glendale confirm they have agreed to extend their arena management agreement. City Council will meet this afternoon to discuss.


Last edited by Rebranded Fan: 08-22-2012 at 12:50 PM. Reason: added sources
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