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[EDM] Taylor Hall signs seven year extension, $6m per
John Tavares is better than Taylor Hall right now. Fact. Could change in the future though?
However, Hall literally is the fire/life/drive/heart/leader/whatever you wanna call it of the Oilers. He sets the tone when he plays. He's probably our 3rd best player (Ebs and Nuge), but he is the emotional tempo setter. He leads by example, and the team follows.
I just don't think it's as black and white as saying one is better than the other. They are very comparable in skill, but each brings something different to the table.
It's fair to point out. Heck it may be fair to add that Hall was playing injured for most of that sophomore year whereas I don't recall anything like that for Tavares.
If you're comparing Hall to Skinner, he significantly outproduced Skinner as a sophomore.
Skinner was improving on his rookie season when he went down with a concussion and unsurprisingly he wasn't quite the same player for awhile after he came back. Hall also played on a significantly better powerplay, and even if he played mostly with Gange and Hesmky, that's still better than Chad Larose and whoever his centre was (Usually not Staal). If we're going to assume Hall would have kept his pace similar to what he had without injuries, than you must also assume Skinner would have aswell if he didn't get a concussion.
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Originally Posted by Soundwave
Hall played much of the season with Gagner and Hemsky though.
RNH and Eberle were usually on a separate line, often with Smyth.
RNH and Hall actually didn't really click too much last year, maybe watch for that to emerge this year.
I remember something I said in a thread (Don't remember what it was about, probably about RNH) that RNH played with Eberle and Smyth last season and I got called out for "not watching the Oilers" because "Hall played with RNH and Eberle, not Smyth". And this wasn't at the start of the season either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy
I just don't think it's as black and white as saying one is better than the other. They are very comparable in skill, but each brings something different to the table.
So Tavares had the same ppg average in his second year as Hall and played more minutes. That makes him better how?
Hall is also the emotional leader of his team and puts up points.
Basically the only thing that is legitimate in what you are saying is that Tavares has not had the injuries Hall has and he plays center instead of wing which granted is a more premium position. But your arguement that JT is much better is pretty weak.
Again, citing ppg is not the same as comparing actual production. Also, comparing Hall's 2nd year to Tavares' 3rd year would be very unfair to Hall, right? I'm sure you don't get the chance to watch Tavares play regularly just as I don't have the chance to watch Hall and Co.
Tavares is an absolute beast. If it weren't for him, the Isles would have a hard time beating an AHL affiliate. It's no secret either as he accounted for some stupid percentage of the team's offense - something close to 40% or so. The kid put on a Herculean display getting run constantly throughout his whole career with very little deterrent. Teams know that you shut him down, you're very likely to win the game. His line was the only truly effective line drawing the top defensive assignments from the opposing team. At this time, Tavares is the better player. I think ranking Hall above him is a no contest.
Could Hall become better, it could happen. But, it's not as if JT isn't working his butt off right now to make sure something like that doesn't happen.
Bruin fans everywhere want to thank Tamby for over paying. Now Chiarelli has to do the same for Seguin. Nothing like a moronic GM setting the bar for the rest of the league.
I just don't think it's as black and white as saying one is better than the other. They are very comparable in skill, but each brings something different to the table.
Tavares is also a year further ahead in his development. I would say that Tavares will likely always be the better overall player but it's closer than HF seems to think.
That's fine though, Hall will just have to prove the haters wrong which i'm extremely confident that he will.
It would be if Hall was actually playing with them. As has been pointed out several times now, Hall spent a large chunk of the season playing with Gagner/Hemsky.
The injury he had in Juniors was a torn labrum. This is a very common injury in hockey. Once the labrum is torn generally it stays that way unless repeaired by surgery. But it is also the type of injury that you can play with but if it it tends to become more painful. Most players will leave the surgery, if they have it, until the offseason if they are in a playoff hunt. For a team like the Oilers the better move was to shut down Hall early to give him longer to rehab. If it was up to Hall he would have played through the year and in that case would have played 74 games last year. Given the probable lockout he likely could have done so and still be fine for when the season starts.
Surgery generally fixes the injury and while it may never be 100% normal in most cases there are no long term issues. Hall himself said that he now feels better than he has since he first hurt it in juniors. So as far as his NHL career is concerned there is a far better chance than not that Hall is ahead of the game from where he actually started his career. Probably the only major downside of this surgery is that players tend to have a bit of a slow start after the surgery.
Other players who have had the same surgery...Kesler, Gaborik, Beauchemin, Roy this year, Hemsky twice, Kreijci, Chara, Tanquay, JVR, Okposo....
I agree with everything but the bolded.. are you sure those guys didn't have torn labrum in their hip, instead of shoulder?
So many misinformed fans in here. FYI, the contract doesn't kick in until 2013-2014.
Hall has injury issues yes, but he scored 27 goals in 61 games last year and was at a near PPG despite playing with a wonky shoulder after the November injury in Colorado. The labrum has been an issue since early in his junior career and if he plays half a season this year (provided that there is a season) then I'll start to get worried about this deal.
As far as Tavares goes, when he signed that deal it was thought that he gave the Islanders a bargain. If you account for the inflation of the cap the Hall deal is the same.
Anyway, Eberle is expected to sign the same deal as Hall. The term might be shorter.
Again, citing ppg is not the same as comparing actual production. Also, comparing Hall's 2nd year to Tavares' 3rd year would be very unfair to Hall, right? I'm sure you don't get the chance to watch Tavares play regularly just as I don't have the chance to watch Hall and Co.
Tavares is an absolute beast. If it weren't for him, the Isles would have a hard time beating an AHL affiliate. It's no secret either as he accounted for some stupid percentage of the team's offense - something close to 40% or so. The kid put on a Herculean display getting run constantly throughout his whole career with very little deterrent. Teams know that you shut him down, you're very likely to win the game. His line was the only truly effective line drawing the top defensive assignments from the opposing team. At this time, Tavares is the better player. I think ranking Hall above him is a no contest.
Could Hall become better, it could happen. But, it's not as if JT isn't working his butt off right now to make sure something like that doesn't happen.
I dont disagree that JT is better at the moment. I just dont think the gap is as large as you think when you say he is much better. I have watched him play several times and was obviously very impressed. I suggest you try to catch the Oil on tv once in a while. You will see how good Hall really is. As good as JT is I think if he can stay mostly healthy Hall will be better. But I am not trying to argue that Hall is better now.
For those claiming this is a "huge" overpayment think about this:
Lets say he signs a 4-year extension at 5 Mil per season. (he could likely have gotten 5.5 like tavares, but lets say 5.
Lets say during this time, he becomes an 80pt player (that would put him as basically one of the best forwards in hockey) (only Malkin was over 100 this year). If that happens, and they sign Hall to another 3 years, it could easily cost the team 7.5 mil per year (and again, this would be a discount) - The best players in hockey can make 8+
Also look at the comparable players, he likely won't sign for 5 even, its more like 5.5,
the 6 mil is a fine deal because quite honestly, I enjoy the thought of a Canadian team locking up some Canadian talent. No more of this "all the FA's go to DRW, NYR, Phi, Bos, LA etc etc" bullcrap.
I hope EDM wins some cups, and locking up these players works.
The downside??? Hall becomes Stastny, and he isn't THAT bad for 6 mil a season! He still has trade value, even with that contract.
I dont disagree that JT is better at the moment. I just dont think the gap is as large as you think when you say he is much better. I have watched him play several times and was obviously very impressed. I suggest you try to catch the Oil on tv once in a while. You will see how good Hall really is. As good as JT is I think if he can stay mostly healthy Hall will be better. But I am not trying to argue that Hall is better now.
While I may be an Isles fan, I do try and catch some Oilers game as I get the Center Ice package every year. I am a hockey fan in general and I enjoy watching Hall, Eberle, and RNH play. Oilers fans undoubtedly have much to be proud of.
It's always easy to fall into 'my player is better than your player', etc., etc. I try hard to avoid that as it's usually an exercise in futility, but it's hard to resist, isn't it. Tavares and Hall are at different points in their careers. Considering they have 3 and 2 seasons under their belts, it's a pretty small sample size. That one year difference right now is the size of the Grand Canyon so it's really difficult to compare them objectively.
Tavares had a breakout season and is now receiving the praise that Isles fans have thought he deserved way before now. Hall is on his way, but again - he's not there yet IMO. His projection numbers may be on par after 2 seasons, but the durability and games played can't be ignored. We'll just have to wait and see. From what I've seen though, I wouldn't doubt Hall. I really admire his game, but he really does need to start caring for himself better. He's a little too reckless, but it's a double edged sword - it's what makes him so damn special in the first place. I'm sure he'll make the necessary adjustments because it would be a shame if he continues to put himself in vulnerable positions because you know people will light him up every chance they get.
I think it's pretty clear that Tavares is the better player because he is more advanced in his career and is producing at the expected star level. I'm just enjoying watching him play and progress, but the temptation to defend him is just too great sometimes as evidenced by my posts in this thread. His style of play is also completely different than Hall's so it's difficult to truly compare the two. Just so many damn variables. Hall's a goal scoring winger. JT is a 2-way center (his strides in this department have been remarkable btw). Like I said earlier, it's comparing apples to oranges.
In any case, let's not sidetrack this thread anymore. It's about Hall's signing which I completely understand and think is a good move. I wish him the best and look forward to seeing how things go.
Are oilers fans using the argument that Hall has had a chronic, lingering injury that he's been dealing with since junior to say he's not injury prone?
Translation: "He's been dealing with a recurring injury for years, ergo, he's not injury prone."
Again, citing ppg is not the same as comparing actual production. Also, comparing Hall's 2nd year to Tavares' 3rd year would be very unfair to Hall, right? I'm sure you don't get the chance to watch Tavares play regularly just as I don't have the chance to watch Hall and Co.
Could Hall become better, it could happen. But, it's not as if JT isn't working his butt off right now to make sure something like that doesn't happen.
Well, Hall's first couple of seasons are equal to, if not superior to, John Tavares'. At least give Hall another season to see how he stacks up. Regardless, JT was supposed to be a generational player. Hall is equal to the #2 pick in his draft year.
Hall's real calling card is the playoffs - we won't be able to judge him there until the Oilers improve and make the second season. Hall will be a perennial 35 goal scorer, akin to Kessel, except he has leadership and really turns it up in the playoffs. Don't expect more, I am happy with that - A Nash with heart.
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Originally Posted by Freaky Styley
From Ivan on the Colorado board:
"The dumbest part is that they didn't need to offer him an extension this offseason.
Imagine if Colorado and Duchene (whose first two seasons in the NHL were better than Hall's) agreed on that kind of an extension last offseason."
Couldn't have said it better myself. Now Duchene looks like a steal at 3.5M for the next 3 years - like the 2nd contract is supposed to be.
And when Duchene average 30G and 35A for the next three seasons, and the cap is $100 million, and he is asking for (a duly warranted) $9-10 million per year pay day in 2015 - I'll come over to the Avs board to personally laugh.
Many of those people who criticize the Oilers for paying for potential are probably the same ones who were convinced that our big 4 would jump at the first offer sheet thrown to them if we hadn't signed our young stars in the first place. After all, don't offer sheets pay for potential in the case of young stars?
If Hall really breaks out next year playing 70+ games and the Oilers signed him after his ELC ran out to a 6.5+ contract, people would be saying how dumb Edmonton was.
The Skinner contract set this one up. That one was also overpaying the guy.
Hall, barring injury will be great, no doubt. But even if he has a 100 point season next year, no one would touch 6 million a year for 7 years.
It wasn't too long ago that you had to prove you could be consistent. Now they hand out lifetime contracts based on potential.
Dumb, dumb, dumb...
Please tell me the dumb, dumb, dumb part was self-referential. Hall still wouldn't be worth 6mil if he had a 100pt season? Stamkos makes 7 and has never cracked 100, only putting up a meager 90+ pts the last 3 years
Also, didn't your boy Spezza land a 7 yr 7 per deal? Sure it was coming off a 92 pt season, but he has failed to produce at that clip since (last year was close though). I'm sure you are still happy with that deal though, much like Oil fans are happy with this one.
Are oilers fans using the argument that Hall has had a chronic, lingering injury that he's been dealing with since junior to say he's not injury prone?
Translation: "He's been dealing with a recurring injury for years, ergo, he's not injury prone."
What?
So Pittsburgh and New York should not have signed Crosby and Gaborik to contracts because they had injury problems in the past? That seems to be the message you're implying.
You know, not every player is going to become the next Doug Jarvis.
This is pretty hilarious were 30 pages in and were still just going around in circles.....Hall is a good player so are tavares,seguin,Skinner,eberle,RNH,etc....point is there all going to be stars in this league.....Who really cares what other fans think as long as Oiler fans are Happy and I know they are because Hallsy is a great player and is very exiting.
