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08-21-2012, 10:55 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Dion should never have been name captain....as he totally lacks leadership. We would be a better team without him as we would then have an opportunity to become a team....currently we are not.
I love Dion on our team, have absolutely no problem with his salary or him as player. To me he's part of the solution rather than a problem.

Just noticed my above post was edited for Hijacking? More truth I would say. Well with a raise to 5.5M as the highest paid fwd on the team now, let's see if my post makes more sense in a few months, when blame seems to find it's way to the higher paid players on the team.

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08-21-2012, 11:11 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Christ View Post
Agreed. What I don't get is where the hate originates as it is irrational in nature. Is it just his contract? His looks? Does he remind some of us of a bully who picked on us at school?

The expectations placed on this guy's shoulders are impossible for a mere human to manage. Not Chara, nor Pronger, nor Weber can be perfect all the time, yet somehow Dion needs to be or we will have crazy fans calling him out on it. I don't know any other fanbase that is so hard on their star defensemen as Leaf fans...we did it to Murphy, then McCabe and now Phaneuf.
I don't disagree that we are hard on players (sometimes undeservedly), but saying that we (or I in this instance) expect to get perfection from Dion is not reality. I will reiterate, that I like the vast majority of Dion's game. His hitting, his offense, even his leadership (which I've questioned at times) is hard to harp on given we aren't in the room. Where I take issue is his defensive play. At times he looks capable, but as a Maple Leaf he has been beaten too routinely along the boards and in front of the net. Like all our D, I expect a more structured gameplan will help him find some consistency in our end, but that still remains to be seen. I am however optomistic.

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08-21-2012, 11:15 AM
  #128
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There's a difference between irrational hate of a player, and just saying we need an upgrade...

If you say "Phaneuf is really more of a #2 D, we could use a better rounded #1 guy", I dont see how that can be construed as hateful... Its just an honest assessment. Phaneuf can definitely be a key contributer on a top calibre team, but he's not a #1 guy IMO.

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08-21-2012, 12:59 PM
  #129
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On the Fan earlier this year they were discussing defenders and someone was saying in their opinion Gardiner reminded him of Letang and believed at the same age Gardiner may be ahead of Letang's development.

2011-2012 Norris Trophy Voting

Pts. 1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th
1. Erik Karlsson, OTT 1,069 (66-31-32-9-5)
2. Shea Weber, NSH 1,057 (49-54-32-9-2)
3. Zdeno Chara, BOS 950 (32-48-47-19-2)
4. Alex Pietrangelo, STL 381 (0-7-20-68-28)
5. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 132 (0-5-4-16-29)
6. Dan Girardi, NYR 70 (2-0-4-6-12)
7. Brian Campbell, FLA 58 (0-2-2-6-16)
8. Ryan Suter, NSH 57 (0-1-3-5-20)
9. Kris Letang, PIT 40 (0-0-4-3-11)
10. Dan Hamhuis, VAN 21 (0-1-0-3-5)
11. Ryan McDonagh, NYR 13 (0-0-1-2-2)
12. Michael Del Zotto, NYR 5 (0-0-0-1-2)
13. Duncan Keith, CHI 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
Keith Yandle, PHX 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
15. Dustin Byfuglien, WPG 4 (0-0-0-0-4)
Alexander Edler, VAN 4 (0-0-0-0-4)
17. Dan Boyle, S.J. 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
18. Kevin Bieksa, VAN 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Willie Mitchell, L.A. 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Kevin Shattenkirk, STL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

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08-21-2012, 01:01 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Sypher04 View Post
I don't disagree that we are hard on players (sometimes undeservedly), but saying that we (or I in this instance) expect to get perfection from Dion is not reality. I will reiterate, that I like the vast majority of Dion's game. His hitting, his offense, even his leadership (which I've questioned at times) is hard to harp on given we aren't in the room. Where I take issue is his defensive play. At times he looks capable, but as a Maple Leaf he has been beaten too routinely along the boards and in front of the net. Like all our D, I expect a more structured gameplan will help him find some consistency in our end, but that still remains to be seen. I am however optomistic.
Fair post, he does get beaten at times, even the best ones do. To me this has more to do with the Ron Wilson system and our fwds not playing a defensive 1st system.. Is Dion perfect? No, but not too many star Dmen would have looked like a Norris winner given the same set of challenges Dion faced the past 2 years.

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08-21-2012, 01:43 PM
  #131
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08-21-2012, 01:48 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
On the Fan earlier this year they were discussing defenders and someone was saying in their opinion Gardiner reminded him of Letang and believed at the same age Gardiner may be ahead of Letang's development.
I see some similarities, but I don't personally think they are that strong. One of the major differences between Letang and Gardiner is the edge Kris plays with. He's a tank. Beyond that, they are both very smooth skaters (I'd give the edge to Gards), while I believe positionally/defensively Letang had him beat. I think Gardiner could end up the better offensive defenseman, while Letang plays a stronger two-way game than I expect him to develop.

One thing of interest is that Letang didn't use his shot much when younger. He worked hard on it, and while it's not the greatest by any means, it's still pretty strong. This is an area I'd like to see Jake develop more as he matures.

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08-21-2012, 02:02 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Sypher04 View Post
I don't disagree that we are hard on players (sometimes undeservedly), but saying that we (or I in this instance) expect to get perfection from Dion is not reality. I will reiterate, that I like the vast majority of Dion's game. His hitting, his offense, even his leadership (which I've questioned at times) is hard to harp on given we aren't in the room. Where I take issue is his defensive play. At times he looks capable, but as a Maple Leaf he has been beaten too routinely along the boards and in front of the net. Like all our D, I expect a more structured gameplan will help him find some consistency in our end, but that still remains to be seen. I am however optomistic.
So he is above average to excellent in nearly every category but his defensive play in your opinion. Would you say he is a number one defenseman?

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08-21-2012, 02:47 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
So he is above average to excellent in nearly every category but his defensive play in your opinion. Would you say he is a number one defenseman?
I see him as a good #2. It's really a vague qualification though.

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08-22-2012, 10:29 AM
  #135
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Lettuce be reality, if Dion had a good partner he would be a #1. Thats what tends to make #1s.

You think Girardi would be successful playing with Gunnarsson instead of McDonagh? Hell no, they complement each other perfectly to make an excellent pairing. Neither one of them are "#1s" by HFs definition. Girardi just started making his name in that elite company last year, Ill tell you right now he hasnt become a much different player, but his skills are used properly and his downfalls are supported by his partner. Now he is perceived as a #1, even though he has the same skill set he had as a #2 and 3 and 4.

Look at Vancouver at Pheonix as well. OEL and Yandle are both no better than Phaneuf, but the fact its 2 guys of that caliber teaming up, makes it a great duo. Same deal with Edler and Bieksa. Im citing some of the best defensive teams from last year - that dont have the 8million dollar man on the blue line, because you dont need it.

Thats not how defense works. Its not about displaying you individual ability to shut down the opposition, rather to work as a unit, follow a good system while collaborating with your d partner to anticipate the offences movements. Dion is not a quick witted person - evident through interviews, media exposure and playing style. He needs someone quick enough (mentally most of all, need that defensive mindset, but physically is big too) to be where he isnt.

The term #1D is a redundant one. It should be synonymous with Superstar defenseman (Weber, Chara, Doughty, Peitr, Karlsson) which is not a necessity to success. You need atleast 1 or 2 superstars to compete for the cup, but they dont have to be on D. Kessel is our only current 'Superstar'. What you need is a good 1st pairing. Comprised of "1st pair quality defencemen" not a #1D -_-. You need a good second pairing, comprised of second pair quality defencemen. And a third pairing.

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08-22-2012, 01:59 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Crabovski View Post
Lettuce be reality, if Dion had a good partner he would be a #1. Thats what tends to make #1s.

You think Girardi would be successful playing with Gunnarsson instead of McDonagh? Hell no, they complement each other perfectly to make an excellent pairing. Neither one of them are "#1s" by HFs definition. Girardi just started making his name in that elite company last year, Ill tell you right now he hasnt become a much different player, but his skills are used properly and his downfalls are supported by his partner. Now he is perceived as a #1, even though he has the same skill set he had as a #2 and 3 and 4.

Look at Vancouver at Pheonix as well. OEL and Yandle are both no better than Phaneuf, but the fact its 2 guys of that caliber teaming up, makes it a great duo. Same deal with Edler and Bieksa. Im citing some of the best defensive teams from last year - that dont have the 8million dollar man on the blue line, because you dont need it.

Thats not how defense works. Its not about displaying you individual ability to shut down the opposition, rather to work as a unit, follow a good system while collaborating with your d partner to anticipate the offences movements. Dion is not a quick witted person - evident through interviews, media exposure and playing style. He needs someone quick enough (mentally most of all, need that defensive mindset, but physically is big too) to be where he isnt.

The term #1D is a redundant one. It should be synonymous with Superstar defenseman (Weber, Chara, Doughty, Peitr, Karlsson) which is not a necessity to success. You need atleast 1 or 2 superstars to compete for the cup, but they dont have to be on D. Kessel is our only current 'Superstar'. What you need is a good 1st pairing. Comprised of "1st pair quality defencemen" not a #1D -_-. You need a good second pairing, comprised of second pair quality defencemen. And a third pairing.
I don't disagree with your post overall. Particularly the last paragraph. However, I'd take Yandle and OEL over Phaneuf. Quite easily.

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08-22-2012, 02:17 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Crabovski View Post
Lettuce be reality, if Dion had a good partner he would be a #1. Thats what tends to make #1s.

You think Girardi would be successful playing with Gunnarsson instead of McDonagh? Hell no, they complement each other perfectly to make an excellent pairing. Neither one of them are "#1s" by HFs definition. Girardi just started making his name in that elite company last year, Ill tell you right now he hasnt become a much different player, but his skills are used properly and his downfalls are supported by his partner. Now he is perceived as a #1, even though he has the same skill set he had as a #2 and 3 and 4.

Look at Vancouver at Pheonix as well. OEL and Yandle are both no better than Phaneuf, but the fact its 2 guys of that caliber teaming up, makes it a great duo. Same deal with Edler and Bieksa. Im citing some of the best defensive teams from last year - that dont have the 8million dollar man on the blue line, because you dont need it.

Thats not how defense works. Its not about displaying you individual ability to shut down the opposition, rather to work as a unit, follow a good system while collaborating with your d partner to anticipate the offences movements. Dion is not a quick witted person - evident through interviews, media exposure and playing style. He needs someone quick enough (mentally most of all, need that defensive mindset, but physically is big too) to be where he isnt.

The term #1D is a redundant one. It should be synonymous with Superstar defenseman (Weber, Chara, Doughty, Peitr, Karlsson) which is not a necessity to success. You need atleast 1 or 2 superstars to compete for the cup, but they dont have to be on D. Kessel is our only current 'Superstar'. What you need is a good 1st pairing. Comprised of "1st pair quality defencemen" not a #1D -_-. You need a good second pairing, comprised of second pair quality defencemen. And a third pairing.
I disagree, it shouldn't be. Here in Leaf Nation it is however. Just as 1c, 1g, 1w hell even 2c are. We expect every player that plays here to be the best at everything.

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08-22-2012, 02:19 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Sypher04 View Post
I don't disagree with your post overall. Particularly the last paragraph. However, I'd take Yandle and OEL over Phaneuf. Quite easily.
And that's your opinion, and one you're entitled to. Seems kinda flavor of the week to me though.

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08-22-2012, 02:27 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
And that's your opinion, and one you're entitled to. Seems kinda flavor of the week to me though.
OEL was my choice for selection his draft year. He was gone before Leafs' pick anyway.

Watching him last year, he looks like he's headed for beast mode, and he just turned 21 this summer. Looks a lot bigger on the ice than his stats show.

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08-22-2012, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
OEL was my choice for selection his draft year. He was gone before Leafs' pick anyway.

Watching him last year, he looks like he's headed for beast mode, and he just turned 21 this summer. Looks a lot bigger on the ice than his stats show.
Sounds like someone that currently plays for the Leafs, I'll let you guess who.

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08-22-2012, 06:57 PM
  #141
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OEL was my choice for selection his draft year. He was gone before Leafs' pick anyway.

Watching him last year, he looks like he's headed for beast mode, and he just turned 21 this summer. Looks a lot bigger on the ice than his stats show.
Watching OEL in the playoffs especially was something else. He looked amazing.

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