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Old
08-22-2012, 01:31 PM
  #76
InfinityIggy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flameshomer View Post
You guys are overrating Stajan's faceoff ability, and totally ignoring the fact that his lack of confidence and speed will lead to an increase in turnovers.

Also, if we're going solely based on FO win % Let's just use Kolanos on the top line. His PPG was almost the same as stajan's and he wins 5 % more faceoffs... Good idea right?!!!?

Wake up guys, Stajan Sucks.
The numbers, and watching Stajan on the top line last year paints a very different picture from what you're trying to say.

Kolanos only ever played on the 4th line, while Stajans FO # on the top line were above 50%.

Completely absurd comparison.

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08-22-2012, 03:36 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
Look at it this way then,

We had Jokinen on the 1st line last year, who also struggled to win faceoffs. In all likelihood Cammy will be slightly worse on the dot.

Do you think Cammy (if he gets 70) scoring 10 more points than Jokinen will be difference in us making the playoffs next year?

Because to me it seems like thats what that plan boils down to.

Also, if we put Cammy on the 1st line C, Stajan has literally no spot on this team so he becomes a wasted asset. Put Cammy on the wing if you want him on the 1st line and use Tangs with Cervenka and Hudler.
I get what your saying, and there is no way to know what will work best until you actually try the combo's in games. I would counter though and say that Tanguay missed significant time last season which affected Iginla's production. Cammy came late in the season. I think that and our lower lines and depth is what cost us the playoffs, whereas this season we have much better depth and I think that will be the difference. If healthy, a line Tangs, Cammy, Iggy looks a lot better than Tangs, Stajan and Iggy to me anyways.

@ Flameshomer, no Stajan doesn't suck. He is useful, personally I just don't see the need for him on this team. I think Stajan is best suited as a 3rd line Center, playing with guys like Stempniak and Comeau. But we have Backlund so I'd rather go with him there.

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08-22-2012, 03:51 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I get what your saying, and there is no way to know what will work best until you actually try the combo's in games. I would counter though and say that Tanguay missed significant time last season which affected Iginla's production. Cammy came late in the season. I think that and our lower lines and depth is what cost us the playoffs, whereas this season we have much better depth and I think that will be the difference. If healthy, a line Tangs, Cammy, Iggy looks a lot better than Tangs, Stajan and Iggy to me anyways.

@ Flameshomer, no Stajan doesn't suck. He is useful, personally I just don't see the need for him on this team. I think Stajan is best suited as a 3rd line Center, playing with guys like Stempniak and Comeau. But we have Backlund so I'd rather go with him there.
Yeah thats true, and who knows Cammy could end up doing really well in the dot. I just think we should give Stajan a fair shot at the start of the season (before his confidence gets ruined again.)

If he isn't helping on the top line, then give it to Cammy or even Cevenka/Backlund if they come flying outta the gate.

I agree that Stajan is best suited to 3rd line type of hockey, but I don't think we can afford to slot him there right now.

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08-22-2012, 03:56 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
Yeah thats true, and who knows Cammy could end up doing really well in the dot. I just think we should give Stajan a fair shot at the start of the season (before his confidence gets ruined again.)

If he isn't helping on the top line, then give it to Cammy or even Cevenka/Backlund if they come flying outta the gate.

I agree that Stajan is best suited to 3rd line type of hockey, but I don't think we can afford to slot him there right now.
I actually feel the same, let them fight it out in training camp and give the spot to the player who is best suited for it. I just think the potential of having Cammy on the top line may be to good to pass up on based on his past history with Iggy. Plus Tangs could feed him the one timer all day long.

If Stajan can carry his play all season, then I think he would be a good option. However after his hot streak, he did really cool down in the final 3-4 weeks of the season. I just do not think he is capable of sustaining that level of play for an entire season.

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08-22-2012, 04:00 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I actually feel the same, let them fight it out in training camp and give the spot to the player who is best suited for it. I just think the potential of having Cammy on the top line may be to good to pass up on based on his past history with Iggy. Plus Tangs could feed him the one timer all day long.

If Stajan can carry his play all season, then I think he would be a good option. However after his hot streak, he did really cool down in the final 3-4 weeks of the season. I just do not think he is capable of sustaining that level of play for an entire season.
I don't doubt that a line of Tangs-Cammy-Iggy would score in bunches, I am just concerned about their possession game, which could ultimately affect their scoring.

True, he did cool off but so did the whole team. You have to remember Stajan is not a goal scorer, and if the goal scorers aren't burying it he looks worse.

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08-22-2012, 07:25 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flameshomer View Post
You guys are overrating Stajan's faceoff ability, and totally ignoring the fact that his lack of confidence and speed will lead to an increase in turnovers.

Also, if we're going solely based on FO win % Let's just use Kolanos on the top line. His PPG was almost the same as stajan's and he wins 5 % more faceoffs... Good idea right?!!!?

Wake up guys, Stajan Sucks.
So wait Kolanos's 30 faceoffs shows he is better

Your argument about him give away the puck can't be right since he had the lowest give away per game of any of the regulars last year, if anything his lack of confidence leads to controlling the puck more.

No one is saying that Stajan>Cammy in terms of skill but by playing our best defensive center who has shown he can put up a ~60 point pace with Tanguay and Iginla who is the best faceoff man on the team could allow for more overall offense because it will give us more control of the puck and Iginla and Tanguay are able to take more risks as Stajan is more capable of covering for them than Cammy is. Not only does this improve our 1st line but it allows Cammy to move to the wing and improve our 2nd leading to more offense.

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08-22-2012, 07:28 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I actually feel the same, let them fight it out in training camp and give the spot to the player who is best suited for it. I just think the potential of having Cammy on the top line may be to good to pass up on based on his past history with Iggy. Plus Tangs could feed him the one timer all day long.

If Stajan can carry his play all season, then I think he would be a good option. However after his hot streak, he did really cool down in the final 3-4 weeks of the season. I just do not think he is capable of sustaining that level of play for an entire season.
He did cool down over the last few weeks but it also has to do with him being played on the third line as Cammy had come back from injure and Jokinen was the second line center and as we know Stajan needs great players around him to perform well.

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08-22-2012, 08:43 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flameshomer View Post
You guys are overrating Stajan's faceoff ability, and totally ignoring the fact that his lack of confidence and speed will lead to an increase in turnovers.

Also, if we're going solely based on FO win % Let's just use Kolanos on the top line. His PPG was almost the same as stajan's and he wins 5 % more faceoffs... Good idea right?!!!?

Wake up guys, Stajan Sucks.
By that logic, Akim Aliu >>>>> Jarome Iginla.


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08-22-2012, 10:20 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
So wait Kolanos's 30 faceoffs shows he is better

Your argument about him give away the puck can't be right since he had the lowest give away per game of any of the regulars last year, if anything his lack of confidence leads to controlling the puck more.

No one is saying that Stajan>Cammy in terms of skill but by playing our best defensive center who has shown he can put up a ~60 point pace with Tanguay and Iginla who is the best faceoff man on the team could allow for more overall offense because it will give us more control of the puck and Iginla and Tanguay are able to take more risks as Stajan is more capable of covering for them than Cammy is. Not only does this improve our 1st line but it allows Cammy to move to the wing and improve our 2nd leading to more offense.
Stajan had the least giveaways per game last season because he was primarily on the 4th line and he never has the puck on his stick. This is all because he's not very good.

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08-22-2012, 10:33 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Stajan had the least giveaways per game last season because he was primarily on the 4th line and he never has the puck on his stick. This is all because he's not very good.
I quoted this one because It was one of the only ones that made a lick of sense. If you can compare Stajan to jokinen in face offs than I can definitely compare kolanos to Stajan. The statistical gap in face offs taken between jokinen and Stajan is actually larger than that between kolanos and Stajan. So if we're going with fo win % comparison, it's actually more valid to compare kolanos and Stajan than jokinen and Stajan. Also, the quality of competition kolanos and Stajan would have faced last year would be much closer than that of Stajan and jokinen, due to jokinen being our go to guy and Stajan being a third liner.

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08-22-2012, 10:34 PM
  #86
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This Stajan debate is always a classic debate. He's either a bum, or a number one centremen for this team. How many players can you say spark that kind of gap in opinions?

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08-22-2012, 10:41 PM
  #87
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Also- for your enjoyment on the turnovers, I broke it down to per minute: Stajan had 21 total turnovers in 793:38 minutes= 0.26 turnovers per minute. Team leader in turnovers bouwmeester had 60 turnovers in 2128:31 minutes= 0.28 turnovers per minute. Also, the quality of competition should again be noted.

In conclusion, Matt Stajan as our number 1 centre would only be detrimental to the success of this team as a whole.


Edit: typed too quickly, there should be an extra 0 after the decimal in both of those haha. Stajan is 0.026 and bouw is 0.028

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08-22-2012, 10:48 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
This Stajan debate is always a classic debate. He's either a bum, or a number one centremen for this team. How many players can you say spark that kind of gap in opinions?
I don't think anyone thinks he is a #1 centerman but that giving him a chance can only help this team as it seems he went from a 50+ point centerman to a bum under Sutter (sounds alot like Jbo) and so people want to write him off.

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08-22-2012, 10:52 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Flameshomer View Post
Also- for your enjoyment on the turnovers, I broke it down to per minute: Stajan had 21 total turnovers in 793:38 minutes= 0.26 turnovers per minute. Team leader in turnovers bouwmeester had 60 turnovers in 2128:31 minutes= 0.28 turnovers per minute. Also, the quality of competition should again be noted.

In conclusion, Matt Stajan as our number 1 centre would only be detrimental to the success of this team as a whole.


Edit: typed too quickly, there should be an extra 0 after the decimal in both of those haha. Stajan is 0.026 and bouw is 0.028
Thats not the same as many turnovers come 5v5 not 5v4 and Stajan got little to no pp time.

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08-22-2012, 10:58 PM
  #90
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Thats not the same as many turnovers come 5v5 not 5v4 and Stajan got little to no pp time.
Because he's not offensively creative enough to use that powerplay time effectively.

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08-22-2012, 11:06 PM
  #91
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Because he's not offensively creative enough to use that powerplay time effectively.
I never once claimed he should be on the pp, I am saying he is the best defensive centerman and best faceoff centerman we have and we should utilize those skills and the fact that he is a ~60 point player with Iginla and Tanguay to maximize this team.

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08-22-2012, 11:34 PM
  #92
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Flameshomer (T/m) - defined as the measure of ice hockey turnover rate, as per international system of units.

Turnover rate really doesn't mean much. Kovalchuk had more give aways than all other players. It simply means you have the puck a lot, or you're usually in charge of bringing the puck into the offensive zone. Or you usually have to give the stretch pass or take the puck up ice. Stuff like that.

When Stajan is the only real hockey player between Kostoplous and Jackman, I think it's fair to say Stajan was probably the guy who should have the puck on his stick. And he did well, as indicated in his Corsi stats

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08-22-2012, 11:36 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flameshomer;53789949[B
]I quoted this one because It was one of the only ones that made a lick of sense. If you can compare Stajan to jokinen[/B] in face offs than I can definitely compare kolanos to Stajan. The statistical gap in face offs taken between jokinen and Stajan is actually larger than that between kolanos and Stajan. So if we're going with fo win % comparison, it's actually more valid to compare kolanos and Stajan than jokinen and Stajan. Also, the quality of competition kolanos and Stajan would have faced last year would be much closer than that of Stajan and jokinen, due to jokinen being our go to guy and Stajan being a third liner.
Except no one did that.

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08-22-2012, 11:47 PM
  #94
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My opinion of Stajan is as follows, generally.

(1) We're weak at face-offs, he's the strongest centre we have.

(2) He's shown to be a top 6 centremen before, but got rocked by Staal and had a very long, difficult recovery. Sutter was a bad coach and burried him between no talent and the only reason he's still be talked about is because he's shown to regain his top 6 ability once given the opportunity. The stats has shown that very well, thanks to this continually arising debate.

(3) Other than Backlund, we have no proven two-way centremen. Period. Cammy, Cervenka, and Hudler haven't been handling the load of palying hockey's most responsible role for 82 games a year. Stajan can play smart centre hockey consistently.

(4) His trade value is at a low, and it would be poor asset management to trade him for nothing when he's capable of at least increasing his trade value

(5) Stajan respectably, and without *****ing, played his checking role. He did some hitting, shot blocking, penalty killing, etc., and out performed his opponents. He was always transparent to the media, and he just did what he was told.

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08-23-2012, 10:44 AM
  #95
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Assuming Stajan is played at center on the top line, these are going to be the line combo's IMO.

Tangs Stajan Iggy
Glencross Cervenka Hudler
Baertschi Backlund Cammy
Stempniak Jones Comeau

I also don't view Backlund's line as a 3rd, I think Baertschi's playmaking ability would be a great asset for Cammy. Although, Glencross and Cammy could be interchanged fairly easily depending on chemistry.

I also quite like that lineup, our 4th line would be the equivalent to some of the poorer teams 2nd's. If Stajan can produce consistently over a sustained period of time I have no problems with him getting lots of minutes. I just have my doubts.

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08-23-2012, 11:48 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
Assuming Stajan is played at center on the top line, these are going to be the line combo's IMO.

Tangs Stajan Iggy
Glencross Cervenka Hudler
Baertschi Backlund Cammy
Stempniak Jones Comeau

I also don't view Backlund's line as a 3rd, I think Baertschi's playmaking ability would be a great asset for Cammy. Although, Glencross and Cammy could be interchanged fairly easily depending on chemistry.

I also quite like that lineup, our 4th line would be the equivalent to some of the poorer teams 2nd's. If Stajan can produce consistently over a sustained period of time I have no problems with him getting lots of minutes. I just have my doubts.
Why do you have Cammy on the 3rd line. He would be on the 2nd line wing.

EDIT: NVM, read the rest.

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08-23-2012, 01:21 PM
  #97
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Man, reading that Beartschi vs Galchenyuk thread on main site really got me excited with all the non Flames fans pulling for Sven

Times are changing

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08-24-2012, 07:53 PM
  #98
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Stajan needs great players around him to perform well.
He was a 50-plus-point first-line center in Toronto. He was on pace for over 60 points (16 goals and 41 points in 55 games) when the Flames picked him up and stuck him in a defensive role buried in the lineup, with his feet in quicksand which would slowly suck him further down the depth chart. He was the best forward on the team his last year and a half in Toronto; which included Phil Kessel's first season (30 goals and 55 points in 70 games).

He's perfectly capable of playing a top-six, scoring role. Whether he belongs on the top two lines in Calgary is arguable, but he's certainly capable of the role.

These are some options for what I might try for the Flames' top six:

Tanguay-Cammalleri-Iginla
Glencross-Cervenka/Stajan-Hudler

Cammalleri/Tanguay-Hudler-Iginla
Cammalleri/Tanguay-Cervenka/Stajan-Glencross


Cammalleri/Tanguay-Stajan-Iginla
Cammalleri/Tanguay-Cervenka-Hudler

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08-24-2012, 11:55 PM
  #99
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Stajan can be a decent player. I don't know if he belongs on a top line, but he can probably be a pretty good 2nd line center, because he can win FO's and play a pretty solid two way game. Only problem is Calgary is chocked full of these 2nd(top dev)/3rd(tons) line centers up and down the lineup and organization.

I just don't see where he fits... I really liked Cammy with Jarome/Tanguay last year for the few games we saw them together. I think they play well of each other. If only we could land a real first line center, this team would be nuts.

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08-25-2012, 09:10 AM
  #100
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The 2008-09 Red Wings are a good comparable for the Flames in this context. The Wings used Samuelsson on the point for the power play, leaving three defensemen; Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Kronwall. That season, the Wings had Marian Hossa on a one-year deal. The first unit was Holmstrom-Datsyuk-Hossa-Lidstrom-Rafalski and the second unit was Franzen-Zetterberg-Hudler-Kronwall-Samuelsson. Samuelsson (40) was the only player on that unit to score under 51 total points.

The Flames have Iginla, Tanguay, Cammalleri, Hudler, Glencross as the top five; Stajan, Stempniak, and Comeau as guys who have shown in the recent past that they are capable of that level over one or more seasons, and finally Cervenka, Backlund and Baertschi as "potential" guys in that range.

That's a pretty solid lineup offensively. There's no reason for Calgary to not field two effective PP units. If it's Wideman/Tanguay and Giordano/Bouwmeester, then Brodie won't be getting points there. If Tangs is up front though, Brodie perhaps plays on the second unit. The first unit would be Iginla, Tanguay, and probably Cammalleri but maybe it ends up as Hudler or Cervenka. The second unit is probably Glencross, Cervenka, and Hudler in that instance. So both units are good enough to be first units, much like the 2008-09 Wings.
The 2008-2009 Red Wings were the 3rd best team in the league that year, led the NHL in scoring, and had the league's most potent power play. Guys like Datsuyk, Zetterberg, Lindstrom, Rafalski and Kronwall were all in their prime.

And you thing they are a good comparable of the Flames?

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