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Old
08-23-2012, 11:41 AM
  #726
BernieParent
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Hopefully, as with questionable hits, if they are serious about punishing divers/embellishers, controversial plays would be reviewable after the game. I agree with 1865 that the more subtle embellishments and dives are difficult to identify on the fly of such a high-speed sport.

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08-23-2012, 11:46 AM
  #727
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This is totally the wrong way to go about things.

The refs are already clearly biased when it comes to reffing certain players. Hell we have even heard from the mouth of one ref how he's going to get another player.

This list will do nothing good for the NHL. Nothing at all. If you are accusing a player of diving then you are accusing him of outright cheating.

While I think that Diving is a terrible act in todays NHL, where do you draw the line. The body's natural reaction to a stick near the face is to snap the head back. Is that considered a dive?

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08-23-2012, 01:18 PM
  #728
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
And crosby
Crosby can fall down from a 2 MPH breeze going by him and the league would never put him on "the list"
I will say its not just Crosby that will be subject to this. there will be a double standard with stars and everyone else.

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08-23-2012, 01:25 PM
  #729
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Who else on our team would make the list besides Briere? Maybe Giroux for that "getting slashed on the bench" act.

To me, this list sounds great. They deserve to be embarrassed.

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08-23-2012, 01:34 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
The list isn't the best way to go about it because diving should be a penalty whether you have a reputation about it or not. First off I think making it a double minor and calling it more often will help. Second, if the new CBA allows for stiffer fines, 2500 is a joke, then you can start hitting these guys in the wallet when they're constantly caught snapping the head back with no contact.
I've been saying for years they need to change to do fines that are a percentage and not a set amount. $2500 is 0.5% for a $500,000 player. You hit a $5 million player with a 0.5% fine and you've got a fine worth a new car. They'll start getting the picture.

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08-23-2012, 01:36 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
This is totally the wrong way to go about things.

The refs are already clearly biased when it comes to reffing certain players. Hell we have even heard from the mouth of one ref how he's going to get another player.

This list will do nothing good for the NHL. Nothing at all. If you are accusing a player of diving then you are accusing him of outright cheating.

While I think that Diving is a terrible act in todays NHL, where do you draw the line. The body's natural reaction to a stick near the face is to snap the head back. Is that considered a dive?
Biased reffing is why they rotate the refs around constantly. Obviously it won't fix the problem 100% of the time but it's the best you can do without straight up firing a ref.

As for the list, it's not a bad idea but it doesn't accomplish things. The refs know who the legitimate divers are, so it adds nothing new.

As Puck Daddy also mentioned, there would be too many biased ways of maintaining the list. What do you have to do to get on it? How do you get off it? Etc.

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08-23-2012, 02:57 PM
  #732
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I think you're talking about Schenn taking the crosscheck from Asham? If so, Pens fans truly believe Brayden is the worst diver in the league after that.
Nope, the one where Giroux is sat on the bench and the stick clips him on the shoulder and the chin.

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08-23-2012, 04:52 PM
  #733
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08-23-2012, 08:27 PM
  #734
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Hey guys I was wondering if there was any news on Pronger? Does it look like he will be back this year or is he done?

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Old
08-23-2012, 08:32 PM
  #735
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No news, which is bad news

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Old
08-23-2012, 10:48 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Hey guys I was wondering if there was any news on Pronger? Does it look like he will be back this year or is he done?
My ex-gf's brother's doctor's dentist's nanny told me that he's only going to play against Calgary this year.

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08-23-2012, 10:56 PM
  #737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
The list isnt so much for the refs as it is to humiliate routine divers. The logic is that if there is a list, and players are put on it for the entire league to see, it will deter diving in the first place.

The intended solution isnt to penalize diving when the refs suspect it-- it's to remove it from the game completely. A list would, I guess, be intended to keep players honest, so the refs wont be expected to do so.

Not sure if it will have the intended effect, but if so many NHL players are for taking action against diving, you have to suspect that the listed players will quickly lose the respect of their peers. Although, I would argue that everyone knows who dives and who doesnt already, so that respect is gone with or without a list...

The only way to eliminate diving is make it ineffective. Period. Public opinion does not incentivize players on the same level as winning. So shaming them whilst allowing it to still be an effective tactic isn't going to diminish diving in the slightest, it's just going to make for a league full of ashamed divers.


A great example is Matt Cooke. Nobody has respected Matt Cooke for a long time, but it took the threat of him losing his career to get him to stop being a ********* becaues that's how he tried to win games. We didn't need a list for the whole damned league to know what that guy was about. It was openly discussed, but it didn't matter to him, he needed his job threatened before it sunk in.

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Old
08-23-2012, 11:51 PM
  #738
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Lol @ the rumors of Kane wanting out of Winnipeg. Not saying he might not like it there, but the reason is the real joke. They are saying he wants to be the face of the franchise(which he pretty much already is), over guess who!!!?? Mark Scheifele. The young guy that hasn't played a game in this league is already the face of that franchise. Absolutely hilarious.

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Old
08-24-2012, 12:06 AM
  #739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
The only way to eliminate diving is make it ineffective. Period. Public opinion does not incentivize players on the same level as winning. So shaming them whilst allowing it to still be an effective tactic isn't going to diminish diving in the slightest, it's just going to make for a league full of ashamed divers.


A great example is Matt Cooke. Nobody has respected Matt Cooke for a long time, but it took the threat of him losing his career to get him to stop being a ********* becaues that's how he tried to win games. We didn't need a list for the whole damned league to know what that guy was about. It was openly discussed, but it didn't matter to him, he needed his job threatened before it sunk in.
While I agree that making diving ineffective would obviously solve the issue, how do you make that happen? It is extremely difficult for refs to judge a dive when they dont have the benefit of replays. If you want video review for dives, I suppose that is a start, but something tells me that would not be feasible. Maybe automatic suspensions for dives? But that is a slippery slope. If you have a borderline dive in a close playoff series, the result could be disastrous. I dont think the league wants more controversy over suspensions.

I think part of the "shaming" thing is for it to be something that is looked down on by your team mates. If, say, Kevin Bieksa openly condemns diving, it would make Burrows or Sedin less likely to take a dive.

Again, I'm not saying it will work-- but there is no easy solution to diving. Whatever action they take will draw criticism. You cant just say, "let's make diving ineffective" because there's no practical way of doing that. Diving is effective, unfortunately, and while I think it's possible to make it less effective, I'm not sure there is a way to make it completely inneffective..

I dont see the harm in making a list. It's a start, and there's no potential for it to go bad. A list will also make refs let calls go if the victim of a supposed penalty is a historic diver. Doesnt that make diving less effective?

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Old
08-24-2012, 12:10 AM
  #740
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Lol

Quote:
According to a source familiar with the NHLPA's proposal, "Part of the PA's proposal allows for Bettman to arbitrarily assign the #1 pick in the draft to a financially distressed team."
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklun...itwhat/1/46225

Either Bettman is trying to ruin the league or Eklind is really trying to get some readers.

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Old
08-24-2012, 12:23 AM
  #741
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Lol


http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklun...itwhat/1/46225

Either Bettman is trying to ruin the league or Eklind is really trying to get some readers.
Um, are you suggesting that Bettman put forth the NHLPA's proposal?

This is what happens when everything is Bettman's fault

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Old
08-24-2012, 12:27 AM
  #742
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I wanted to post this, but wasn't really sure where. I am a rookie poster longtime lurker.

FWIW my cousin and I were vacationing together and we got to talking hockey like always. He works part time at an auto-body shop. We got to talking the past playoff series with the Pens and how Crosby was a punk for slashing Girouxs wrist's during face offs. He goes off about how he works on a car for this female lawyer who just so happens to represent one of the doctors that Crosby saw about his concussion. She apparently met for dinner and drinks with her client and a few drinks later he spills the beans on Crosby. Pretty much said that he told Crosby to "never play hockey again in the NHL." He is one big hit away from being a vegetable to some degree. Crosby of course refuses to give up the game. Just though this was interesting considering he signed a new contract and we will be playing him regularly for some time. I have no reason to doubt my cousin, hes never lied in the past. Two summers ago he got into a fight with Jeff Carter at Shenanigans down in Sea Isle, so lets just say he is familiar with the Flyers. This was verified by others, so he was not lying about the fight.
Bottom line is though that if this is true, you can imagine the protection Crosby will get night in night out. You thought it was bad before, well its going to get real bad once the season starts (if it starts).

That is all...

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Old
08-24-2012, 03:48 AM
  #743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
While I agree that making diving ineffective would obviously solve the issue, how do you make that happen?
I think that's the tough question. If there were really a good answer the league probably would've done it by now. I don't know that I have a great answer, but the peer pressure route is going to be fruitless for reasons I get into below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
It is extremely difficult for refs to judge a dive when they dont have the benefit of replays. If you want video review for dives, I suppose that is a start, but something tells me that would not be feasible. Maybe automatic suspensions for dives? But that is a slippery slope. If you have a borderline dive in a close playoff series, the result could be disastrous. I dont think the league wants more controversy over suspensions.

I think part of the "shaming" thing is for it to be something that is looked down on by your team mates. If, say, Kevin Bieksa openly condemns diving, it would make Burrows or Sedin less likely to take a dive.
The problem is that everybody hates diving...until they're down a goal and need a power play. Then Bieksa is gonna look at his team mate after the game and shrug, as if to say, "screw it, you did what you had to do". The guys who are willing to win at all costs usually do.

Suspensions are one option if someone, shows themselves to be a repeat offender. Dustin Brown could've been sat in the corner for a game long time out last play offs, just my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Again, I'm not saying it will work-- but there is no easy solution to diving. Whatever action they take will draw criticism. You cant just say, "let's make diving ineffective" because there's no practical way of doing that. Diving is effective, unfortunately, and while I think it's possible to make it less effective, I'm not sure there is a way to make it completely ineffective.
We pretty much agree here. Aside from not giving calls to known divers and calling known embellishers, there's not much you can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I dont see the harm in making a list. It's a start, and there's no potential for it to go bad. A list will also make refs let calls go if the victim of a supposed penalty is a historic diver. Doesnt that make diving less effective?
You said yourself the league doesn't need any more reffing controversy. That is exactly where a list can go bad and do a lot of harm. The last thing you need is a document that exists solely for the purpose of highlighting which players to treat differently than other players, even if they've earned it. That is begging for a massive **** storm, and reduces the margin for error to zero in some circumstances for the refs.

So that is the downside in my mind. The upside, (again just my thought) is absolutely zero. The refs aren't idiots, they don't need a list in order to keep track of who's a BS artist and who's playing the game straight-up. it's already public knowledge who's a chronic diver and who isn't. Just give the refs a green light to call embellishment more often and let them take it from there.

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Old
08-24-2012, 04:21 AM
  #744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKpsu330 View Post
I wanted to post this, but wasn't really sure where. I am a rookie poster longtime lurker.

FWIW my cousin and I were vacationing together and we got to talking hockey like always. He works part time at an auto-body shop. We got to talking the past playoff series with the Pens and how Crosby was a punk for slashing Girouxs wrist's during face offs. He goes off about how he works on a car for this female lawyer who just so happens to represent one of the doctors that Crosby saw about his concussion. She apparently met for dinner and drinks with her client and a few drinks later he spills the beans on Crosby. Pretty much said that he told Crosby to "never play hockey again in the NHL." He is one big hit away from being a vegetable to some degree. Crosby of course refuses to give up the game. Just though this was interesting considering he signed a new contract and we will be playing him regularly for some time. I have no reason to doubt my cousin, hes never lied in the past. Two summers ago he got into a fight with Jeff Carter at Shenanigans down in Sea Isle, so lets just say he is familiar with the Flyers. This was verified by others, so he was not lying about the fight.
Bottom line is though that if this is true, you can imagine the protection Crosby will get night in night out. You thought it was bad before, well its going to get real bad once the season starts (if it starts).

That is all...
If what you say is true then Crosby needs to learn how to keep his ****ing mouth shut and stay out of the extra-curricular ******** after the whistle. Rewatching the playoffs and I see the captain of the Penguins starting **** after the whistles on two occasions in the same game. Once during the glove pushing, which turned snowballed into letang jumping kimmo, and he and giroux going toe to toe. Then another incident where he grabs hartnell and tries to take him down. Then just as hartnell has the little puke pinned against the boards, Craig Adams has to bail his ass out big time (which I respect), takes a 3rd man in, gets the hair pulling (which I've decided isn't his fault... afterall hartnell has HAIR).

Here you have arguably the best player in the world. Who is "one big hit away" from having scrambled eggs-for-brains talking **** to guys that have several inches and lbs on him. If the target on his back isn't big enough already, he, or rather his mouth... certainly make it appear larger.

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Old
08-24-2012, 09:08 AM
  #745
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Lol @ the rumors of Kane wanting out of Winnipeg. Not saying he might not like it there, but the reason is the real joke. They are saying he wants to be the face of the franchise(which he pretty much already is), over guess who!!!?? Mark Scheifele. The young guy that hasn't played a game in this league is already the face of that franchise. Absolutely hilarious.
scheifele has played some nhl games

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Old
08-24-2012, 09:19 AM
  #746
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scheifele has played some nhl games
Well yea you know what I meant

Some one who has played more than 10 games in this league. Forgot about his little stint there at the beginning of the season.

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Old
08-24-2012, 09:22 AM
  #747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
If what you say is true then Crosby needs to learn how to keep his ****ing mouth shut and stay out of the extra-curricular ******** after the whistle. Rewatching the playoffs and I see the captain of the Penguins starting **** after the whistles on two occasions in the same game. Once during the glove pushing, which turned snowballed into letang jumping kimmo, and he and giroux going toe to toe. Then another incident where he grabs hartnell and tries to take him down. Then just as hartnell has the little puke pinned against the boards, Craig Adams has to bail his ass out big time (which I respect), takes a 3rd man in, gets the hair pulling (which I've decided isn't his fault... afterall hartnell has HAIR).

Here you have arguably the best player in the world. Who is "one big hit away" from having scrambled eggs-for-brains talking **** to guys that have several inches and lbs on him. If the target on his back isn't big enough already, he, or rather his mouth... certainly make it appear larger.

I agree. While Crosby's concussions have come about by some flukey things, in order to mitigate any non flukey things he really needs to tone down his temperament. While I like the chippyness he plays with ( same with giroux) he goes too far sometimes and is able to get away with it. I've never seen a player hit him in a dirty fashion to get back at him but that doesn't rule it out.


To add in one more discussion about the poster whose cousin is a mechanic who overheard stuff about crosby's concussion issues. All hockey players are a hit away from experiencing a career threatening injury regardless of past injuries ( Pronger) The only way to stay safe in hockey is to not play.


Last edited by Jtown: 08-24-2012 at 09:32 AM.
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Old
08-24-2012, 09:23 AM
  #748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Lol @ the rumors of Kane wanting out of Winnipeg. Not saying he might not like it there, but the reason is the real joke. They are saying he wants to be the face of the franchise(which he pretty much already is), over guess who!!!?? Mark Scheifele. The young guy that hasn't played a game in this league is already the face of that franchise. Absolutely hilarious.
I laughed so hard when I read that. It would be like saying Giroux wants out because Cousins will be the face of the franchise. Scheifele is decent, but he's nowhere near that level.

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08-24-2012, 09:54 AM
  #749
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Nope, the one where Giroux is sat on the bench and the stick clips him on the shoulder and the chin.
Oh ok, I confused the two. Yea you're right, I've read many Pens fans that use that as eveidence that G is a diver. Sure, it looked like he overreacted but Ive never seen him dive on the ice, to use that in your argument just shows how silly they are, especially having two of the biggest floppers in the league. They also use Gs stumbling after Neal's elbow as proof of him diving. What a bunch of maroons.

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08-24-2012, 10:03 AM
  #750
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I agree. While Crosby's concussions have come about by some flukey things, in order to mitigate any non flukey things he really needs to tone down his temperament. While I like the chippyness he plays with ( same with giroux) he goes too far sometimes and is able to get away with it. I've never seen a player hit him in a dirty fashion to get back at him but that doesn't rule it out.


To add in one more discussion about the poster whose cousin is a mechanic who overheard stuff about crosby's concussion issues. All hockey players are a hit away from experiencing a career threatening injury regardless of past injuries ( Pronger) The only way to stay safe in hockey is to not play.
I realize the cold hard facts about the dangers players face. In crosbys case it is worse. Missing that kind of time means it was considerable damage with a dose of precaution. His brain is not like most 20 somethings. One hit and he could need help doing basic things.

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