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Off-season Armchair GM Thread Part IX

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Old
08-22-2012, 09:35 PM
  #226
Kitten Mittons
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
It is the playoffs where you need the Lidstrom, Pronger, Orr, Nieds type.
And how many current defensemen in the NHL are future Hall of Famers and one of the best defensemen in the history of the game?

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08-22-2012, 09:36 PM
  #227
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Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but I seem to remember Datsyuk making a statement at the all star game that was along the lines of "He (Couture) is a better hockey player, right now, than I was at his age."
So? Does that mean that Couture's going to be better than Datsyuk in Datsyuk's prime?

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08-22-2012, 09:42 PM
  #228
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So? Does that mean that Couture's going to be better than Datsyuk in Datsyuk's prime?
Not by any means. But I don't think it would be unreasonable to state that he's on the right track, developmentally, to have similar upside.

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08-22-2012, 09:46 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
And how many current defensemen in the NHL are future Hall of Famers and one of the best defensemen in the history of the game?
I already stated it was the narrow definition of #1's. There aren't a lot and almost all will be HOF. Currently Chara, Letang, Pronger, Keith and Doughty. Keith and Doughty only when playing to their potential and not sitting on their laurels (and fat paychecks). Pronger and Lidstrom may be leaving the field, Suter and Weber may take their spots. Look for the guys who are consistently putting up huge + numbers along with 50ish points.

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08-22-2012, 10:12 PM
  #230
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So? Does that mean that Couture's going to be better than Datsyuk in Datsyuk's prime?
It's still too early to say that he'll be a career number 2 center.

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08-23-2012, 12:01 AM
  #231
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On the Boyle topic, if Keith Yandle can be considered for a Norris, than Boyle is certainly Norris caliber. He's just been unlucky to not have the right season at the right time, but he's certainly a better player than Yandle is.

On the Thornton topic, yes, he is one of the best centers all time. He's basically a lock for the hall of fame, especially if he gets a cup. Comparing Couture to him is completely unrealistic. We are not going to have a hall of fame #1 center forever.

The point is simply it is WAY too earlier to predict Coutures development. Some very talented players, and very smart hockey minds, have commented on how impressive he is. Could he be a #1 center, absolutely yes he COULD, will he, that's yet to be seen.

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08-23-2012, 04:26 AM
  #232
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On the Boyle topic, if Keith Yandle can be considered for a Norris, than Boyle is certainly Norris caliber. He's just been unlucky to not have the right season at the right time, but he's certainly a better player than Yandle is.
Right season at the right time is key here... More than a few Dmen had that problem over the last decade that no matter how well they played the norris was a one horse race every year. Lidstrom for my money is the greatest defensman in the history of the sport. It's like trying to win a scoring title back in the 80s when Gretz was with Edmonton. The trophy was engraved before the season started each year.

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08-23-2012, 06:40 AM
  #233
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The point is simply it is WAY too earlier to predict Coutures development. Some very talented players, and very smart hockey minds, have commented on how impressive he is. Could he be a #1 center, absolutely yes he COULD, will he, that's yet to be seen.
Couture has everything going for him except for top tier speed. If he was Marleau fast, he would be a #1 center without a single doubt.

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08-23-2012, 11:33 AM
  #234
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Right season at the right time is key here... More than a few Dmen had that problem over the last decade that no matter how well they played the norris was a one horse race every year. Lidstrom for my money is the greatest defensman in the history of the sport. It's like trying to win a scoring title back in the 80s when Gretz was with Edmonton. The trophy was engraved before the season started each year.
wrong wrong wrong, theres this unknown guy named bobby orr that even in his 12 years did more then lidstrom did in his 20+ years.

8 norris trophy's
art ross winner 2 times
hart trophy winner
conn smyth
lester b pearson

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08-23-2012, 12:16 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
wrong wrong wrong, theres this unknown guy named bobby orr that even in his 12 years did more then lidstrom did in his 20+ years.

8 norris trophy's
art ross winner 2 times
hart trophy winner
conn smyth
lester b pearson
I didn't even comment because it's not relevant to the topic, but yes Bobby Orr was the superior player, by quite a margin. There is a reason he is one of the only 3 players ever in the debate for 'greatest hockey player of all time'.

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08-23-2012, 02:47 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
wrong wrong wrong, theres this unknown guy named bobby orr that even in his 12 years did more then lidstrom did in his 20+ years.

8 norris trophy's
art ross winner 2 times
hart trophy winner
conn smyth
lester b pearson
Ehh, I love Orr as much as the next fan, but the league he played in was radically different than the league Lidstrom played in. Orr was basically a forward who occasionally played a bit of defense. The competition was MUCH weaker overall, the fitness level of the players was less, the physicality was less, and the overall skill level of the players was less.

Orr was massively dominant in his time, but if you had him in the modern NHL I don't he does nearly as well as he did. To me, Lidstrom is the best.

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08-23-2012, 02:57 PM
  #237
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That's like saying Crosby is better because goalies in Gretzky's era sucked.

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08-23-2012, 02:59 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
wrong wrong wrong, theres this unknown guy named bobby orr that even in his 12 years did more then lidstrom did in his 20+ years.

8 norris trophy's
art ross winner 2 times
hart trophy winner
conn smyth
lester b pearson
There's no doubt he was great but it isnt like Orr played against the greatest competition. From what Ive read, the defense was thereto play defense at the time and they weren't great skaters at the time either. It isn't the same as Lidstrom playing successfully in the current era and the deadpuck era.

I'm not discounting Orr, it's just that Lidstrom's success had seem more versatile and it has been easier to quantify considering all the greats he has played against.

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08-23-2012, 03:30 PM
  #239
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so we got to aug 22 before the Bobby Orr discussion came up this off season, really must be a slow time for us, like watching hair grow...

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08-23-2012, 03:56 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by hohosaregood View Post
There's no doubt he was great but it isnt like Orr played against the greatest competition. From what Ive read, the defense was thereto play defense at the time and they weren't great skaters at the time either. It isn't the same as Lidstrom playing successfully in the current era and the deadpuck era.

I'm not discounting Orr, it's just that Lidstrom's success had seem more versatile and it has been easier to quantify considering all the greats he has played against.
You understand that's part of the greatness of Orr right? He came and he changed the game.

And to be fair Lidstrom has as well in the sense that he showed you don't have to be a heavy hitter to be great but still not in the same magnitude. I guess you could say Lidstrom changed the game while Orr revolutionized it.

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08-23-2012, 03:58 PM
  #241
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Murray, Clowe, Nieto + 2nd for Number 4 Bobby Orr

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08-23-2012, 04:06 PM
  #242
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Murray, Clowe, Nieto + 2nd for Number 4 Bobby Orr
No deal. Minn offered him 200M over 37 years. 98M in signing bonuses over the first 12 years.

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08-23-2012, 04:08 PM
  #243
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No deal. Minn offered him 200M over 37 years. 98M in signing bonuses over the first 12 years.
But then Philly offersheeted him a 50 yrs 400M contract.

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08-23-2012, 04:16 PM
  #244
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But then Philly offersheeted him a 50 yrs 400M contract.
I'd be hard pressed not to take 100 first round picks.

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08-23-2012, 04:34 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
That's like saying Crosby is better because goalies in Gretzky's era sucked.
No, it's like saying that there is no such thing as "greatest of all time" because of drastically different era's in sports.

Barry Bonds may be the HR king, but he never had to play at a ballpark where it took around 500 feet for a ball to get out of there (e.g., Polo Grounds to dead center IIRC). Similarly, Babe Ruth never played in the steroid era.

IMHO, you can't really say "greatest of all time," but rather "greatest of an era." To which Orr was the greatest Dman (And perhaps player) of his era.

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08-23-2012, 04:38 PM
  #246
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Given that rollback of salaries and potentially length of contract are likely to come out of a new CBA (whenever they agree to one), and were likely leading up to this point, at what point do the Wild look like geniuses and other GM's don't for signing those massive Suter/Parise deals right before a near-certain rollback of salary and term?

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08-23-2012, 05:16 PM
  #247
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Couture has everything going for him except for top tier speed. If he was Marleau fast, he would be a #1 center without a single doubt.
That's great but Couture is already a better player than Marleau...so there's that. Marleau isn't even a #1 center. He sucks at center.

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08-23-2012, 05:21 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by hohosaregood View Post
There's no doubt he was great but it isnt like Orr played against the greatest competition. From what Ive read, the defense was thereto play defense at the time and they weren't great skaters at the time either. It isn't the same as Lidstrom playing successfully in the current era and the deadpuck era.

I'm not discounting Orr, it's just that Lidstrom's success had seem more versatile and it has been easier to quantify considering all the greats he has played against.
This is the Wilt Chamberlin vs. Jordan debate. It's different. One was more dominant against lesser competition the other was tremendous against very good competition.

For my money Lidstrom is the greatest Hockey player of all time.

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08-23-2012, 06:08 PM
  #249
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This is the Wilt Chamberlin vs. Jordan debate. It's different. One was more dominant against lesser competition the other was tremendous against very good competition.

For my money Lidstrom is the greatest Hockey player of all time.
Ha, I almost wrote that practically word for word this morning... but then I didn't. Oh, and I put defenseman instead of player.

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08-23-2012, 06:29 PM
  #250
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LOL @ anyone who doesn't think Mike Rathje isn't the greatest defenseman of all time... he was clearly held back by inferior teammates his whole career

they should just change it from the Norris to the Rathje trophy

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