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Does Bobby Ryan's value = PK Subban's value ?

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Old
08-23-2012, 05:07 PM
  #176
Sojourn
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
I don't think he could post a 70 point season, Him and Karlsson are too huge talent, but Karlsson has way more smarts. But you're right, P.K. Has been used on a shutdown pair all year. With a better defense this year, he should rise to top 10 in points. Look for 40-55 production, while still being a 26-28 minutes D.


You guy's don't get my point on Teemu/Ryan. I know Teemu is one of the best to actually play the game on the PP.. (FYI, I was on strike at school(If you ever heard of a strike in canada's college that's me..) and I watched atleast 2 games a day, I've catched most of Anaheim's game, since I love Perry's play.)

Ryan is a good Winger, very good. But much like Nash he's been overrated with all those non-sense rumours. Still an asset to have. I just don't think he could be the go to guy.. Maybe it's just because I don't like the kid.. I don't know. I'm just not feeling it.. He has superb hands, Nice shot, Nice passes... I don't know..
You certainly haven't given a strong argument for why he's overrated. He puts up very impressive even strength numbers, and would likely see a nice bump with 1st unit PP time that would, in all probability, take his goal total into the 40's, and allow him to approach a point per game rate. The Ducks are looking to build an offensive line around his capabilities, and a lot of Anaheim fans can attest to the fact that Ryan seems to be more effective when he has the puck on his stick more(which won't happen with Getzlaf and Perry). This contradicts your claim that he can't be a go-to guy.

Finally, Teemu Selanne, by your own admission, is one of the best on the power play. That effectiveness on the PP, combined a little with his own legend, would all but guarantee him the spot ahead of Ryan. Your insinuation that if Ryan could be a 40-40 player he'd have that spot is completely without merit. We're talking about a sure thing soon to be Hall of Fame player in Teemu Selanne. The guy is magic on the PP. Why in the world would Ryan bump him, when Selanne can still do so much on the PP? Anaheim would only be hurting themselves by not taking advantage of what Teemu brings.

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08-23-2012, 05:35 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Slick Eller View Post
Hahaha... I'd like to hear how in this world Staal is a better 1 on 1 dman than Subban. I won't speak for McDonagh because I'm too much uninformed about his game, aside the last playoffs, which he was good, but not as good as a I thought while reading HFboards.

Staal gets beat 1 on 1 by several occasion only in games against the Habs. He gets caught flat footed a lot.


Posts like yours show how uninformed you are and how you underrated Subban.

The poster you quote was right, in 1 on 1 situation, P.K is up there among the best player in the league.

And he has been great at it since his first playoffs in 2009-2010,

He is still prone to mistakes, like bad pass, odd clearing zone attempt which lead to turnover and goals.

But in odd man rush, 1 on 1, or along the board, down low in the corner, he is among the greatest in the league.

And how often I've seen breakaway or 2 on 1 broken by Subban with his great skating skills and abilities to catch up the play and pokecheck dive,

Get a clue Jonathan.

And there are *beep beep* people in this thread like CB Joe, saying there isn't enough substance from Subban. Kid, stop hating and get a clue, Subban since he's the league has been better than any dman you had on your team for the last 2 years.

Anyone remember Subban in the 2010 playoffs or 2011 ? How he shutdown Crosby and Ovechkin and how he was used heavily on last year in the 2nd half, always ahead of his opponent defensively?

Not enough substance...When I'm clueless on a subject or a player, I don't post anything, you know why? Because I don't have enough knowledge to form a proper opinion, an intelligent one...

You should do same, because you obviously don't know jack when you say Subban is all flash and no substance.
I will admit to being a Ranger fan. I will also admit that I think PK is currently the better player overall. Staal is a beast defensively though. His game was a touch off for most of the season last year after his major concussion, and I still feel that he was better defensively than Subban. Staal is a shutdown defenseman - a VERY good one - where I feel PK is more of an all around player.

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08-23-2012, 05:48 PM
  #178
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IMO the best way to determine their value is on a team by team basis, like Vancouver they could use a right handed shot on the point badly however with their current talent on D and their lack of a real power forward in their top6 i would place more value on Ryan for the canucks. i would love to see PK in vancouver though.

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08-23-2012, 09:20 PM
  #179
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I just don't get how people are saying this is close. Not close at all

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08-23-2012, 09:27 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
As title states ?
At this point... not even close.

Ryan doesn't really have anything "wrong" with him per se. He just needs to find a consistent role and a decent centre. Move him to a team where he'll be the #1 winger, and he'll prove the investment worthwhile. At the very least, he'll be a 1-man productivity generator for the line he's on, and not cause any problems. There's no real knocks on his game. He's also a highly proven (and remarkably consistent) offensive player in this league, having scored over 120 goals over the past 4 seasons, combined with a decent physical presence.

Subban is a flashy player without a doubt, but he's got way too many holes in his game to be a guy that a team would want as a top defenceman. He's also got a massively overinflated ego and as a result seems to be going down the Dion Phaneuf path of things where he needs to get a whole lot worse before he gets better and starts to fix the holes in his game. Subban hasn't gone through that reality check, and I think it's a really tough sell for a team to give up substantial value on him when there's a pretty good chance he's going to be worth less next year.

Furthermore, look around the league at any of the big market teams that have $5m+ in cap space. Most of them would absolutely love to add Bobby Ryan to their lineup and give up a fairly substantial ransom to do so. 30+ goals, size, 25 years old, a reasonable defensive game, and 3 years left on his contract at $5.1m. Now ask yourself how many of those want the headache that Subban is going to bring?


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08-23-2012, 09:36 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
At this point... not even close.

Ryan doesn't really have anything "wrong" with him per se. He just needs to find a consistent role and a decent centre. Move him to a team where he'll be the #1 winger, and he'll prove the investment worthwhile. At the very least, he'll be a 1-man productivity generator for the line he's on, and not cause any problems. There's no real knocks on his game. He's also a highly proven (and remarkably consistent) offensive player in this league, having scored over 120 goals over the past 4 seasons, combined with a decent physical presence.

Subban is a flashy player without a doubt, but he's got way too many holes in his game to be a guy that a team would want as a top defenceman. He's also got a massively overinflated ego and as a result seems to be going down the Dion Phaneuf path of things where he needs to get a whole lot worse before he gets better and starts to fix the holes in his game. Subban hasn't gone through that reality check, and I think it's a really tough sell for a team to give up substantial value on him when there's a pretty good chance he's going to be worth less next year.

Furthermore, look around the league at any of the big market teams that have $5m+ in cap space. Most of them would absolutely love to add Bobby Ryan to their lineup and give up a fairly substantial ransom to do so. 30+ goals, size, 25 years old, a reasonable defensive game, and 3 years left on his contract at $5.1m. Now ask yourself how many of those want the headache that Subban is going to bring?
I would say almost every team in the league would drool at the thought of getting P.K.

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08-23-2012, 10:04 PM
  #182
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As of today ryan > Subban

In a couple of years who knows

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08-23-2012, 10:40 PM
  #183
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I would say almost every team in the league would drool at the thought of getting P.K.
And laugh at getting Bobby Ryan amiright?

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Old
08-23-2012, 10:43 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
At this point... not even close.

Ryan doesn't really have anything "wrong" with him per se. He just needs to find a consistent role and a decent centre. Move him to a team where he'll be the #1 winger, and he'll prove the investment worthwhile. At the very least, he'll be a 1-man productivity generator for the line he's on, and not cause any problems. There's no real knocks on his game. He's also a highly proven (and remarkably consistent) offensive player in this league, having scored over 120 goals over the past 4 seasons, combined with a decent physical presence.

Subban is a flashy player without a doubt, but he's got way too many holes in his game to be a guy that a team would want as a top defenceman. He's also got a massively overinflated ego and as a result seems to be going down the Dion Phaneuf path of things where he needs to get a whole lot worse before he gets better and starts to fix the holes in his game. Subban hasn't gone through that reality check, and I think it's a really tough sell for a team to give up substantial value on him when there's a pretty good chance he's going to be worth less next year.

Furthermore, look around the league at any of the big market teams that have $5m+ in cap space. Most of them would absolutely love to add Bobby Ryan to their lineup and give up a fairly substantial ransom to do so. 30+ goals, size, 25 years old, a reasonable defensive game, and 3 years left on his contract at $5.1m. Now ask yourself how many of those want the headache that Subban is going to bring?
Wait Subban has holes in his game ?

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08-23-2012, 10:44 PM
  #185
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No but it's pretty close. I'd say Subban + mid pick or mid prospect is fair.

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08-23-2012, 10:57 PM
  #186
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I have to say that I'm still a little lost as to the purpose of this thread. Is this supposed to be a proposal? If it is, we need Ryan more than we need PK. I assume the situation is similar for Montreal.

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08-23-2012, 11:36 PM
  #187
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I have to say that I'm still a little lost as to the purpose of this thread. Is this supposed to be a proposal? If it is, we need Ryan more than we need PK. I assume the situation is similar for Montreal.
The horse has been beaten, eaten, digested and it has rotten.

For the majority we all agreed on Ryan and Subban have similar value (Same ball park..),

I'd see Anaheim, Calgary, Colombus, Florida, NJD, NYI, NYR, Ottawa, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, San Jose, Saint Louis, Tampa, Vancouver and the Caps taking Ryan and Boston, Buffalo, Carolina, Chicago, Colorado, Dallas, Detroit, LA, Minny, MTL, Nashville, Philly and Toronto taking Subban.. So that make's it kinda even.

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08-23-2012, 11:43 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
At this point... not even close.

Ryan doesn't really have anything "wrong" with him per se. He just needs to find a consistent role and a decent centre. Move him to a team where he'll be the #1 winger, and he'll prove the investment worthwhile. At the very least, he'll be a 1-man productivity generator for the line he's on, and not cause any problems. There's no real knocks on his game. He's also a highly proven (and remarkably consistent) offensive player in this league, having scored over 120 goals over the past 4 seasons, combined with a decent physical presence.

Subban is a flashy player without a doubt, but he's got way too many holes in his game to be a guy that a team would want as a top defenceman. He's also got a massively overinflated ego and as a result seems to be going down the Dion Phaneuf path of things where he needs to get a whole lot worse before he gets better and starts to fix the holes in his game. Subban hasn't gone through that reality check, and I think it's a really tough sell for a team to give up substantial value on him when there's a pretty good chance he's going to be worth less next year.

Furthermore, look around the league at any of the big market teams that have $5m+ in cap space.
Most of them would absolutely love to add Bobby Ryan to their lineup and give up a fairly substantial ransom to do so. 30+ goals, size, 25 years old, a reasonable defensive game, and 3 years left on his contract at $5.1m. Now ask yourself how many of those want the headache that Subban is going to bring?
Talk about a biased analysis. Subban "not even close" , "seems to be going the Dion Phaneuf path"...you don't have a clue of who Subban is.

At this point, I agree that Ryan's value is SLIGHTLY higher than Subban's, and I will not go down the path of inventing weaknesses for Ryan to back that up. But Subban has a hell of a lot more upside, and we also need him more at this point than we need Ryan. so no trade.

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08-24-2012, 01:05 AM
  #189
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Subban hasnt even hit 40 points as an "offensive" defenseman. Ryan has scored several +30g seasons and is due for many more over the rest of his career.

How could anyone say this is even close?

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08-24-2012, 03:17 AM
  #190
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IMHO, Ryan today is worth more then Subban, that is for the ducks. I would be really surprised if they'd trade Ryan for Subban straight up. But potential wise, I think that Subban has what it takes to be another Karlsson.

Keep in mind that the Habs management is not letting Subban play as the Sens let Karlsson play. Habs are trying to make him better defensively as the Sens seem to let Karlsson play as he wants. Therefore, Subban is probably better then Karlsson defensively, but isn't given the opportunity as much as Karlsson to play offensively. But only time will tell if Subban is as good or better then Karlsson and if he is as good or better, then he is definitely worth more then Ryan.
while i agree with your general sentiment, and i will always wonder what subban would do under a coach that would use him to his strengths - whatever those are... And against all expectations, jacques martin turned a player who was supposed to be at best average defensively into very solid shutdown guy. the offensive instincts are still there though. can't wait to see what therrien does with him.

that said, i don't think there is a universe where subban puts up the same amount of points erik did. offensive vision is one reason why, and the lack of a center of spezza's caliber is another one

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08-24-2012, 03:22 AM
  #191
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I don't think PK is worth Bobby... at least yet. They probably have comparable potential, but Bobby has proven much more to this point. Given, he has a year or two on PK, but still. This will be in interesting question in a year or so.
8 pages deep and this still sums it up perfectly.

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08-24-2012, 04:20 AM
  #192
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Ryan has a much much higher value than PK Subban. Jeez, how the hell is this even in question?

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08-24-2012, 04:22 AM
  #193
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while i agree with your general sentiment, and i will always wonder what subban would do under a coach that would use him to his strengths - whatever those are... And against all expectations, jacques martin turned a player who was supposed to be at best average defensively into very solid shutdown guy. the offensive instincts are still there though. can't wait to see what therrien does with him.

that said, i don't think there is a universe where subban puts up the same amount of points erik did. offensive vision is one reason why, and the lack of a center of spezza's caliber is another one
Therrien has no patience for guys with the ego the size of PK's. It's well documented, PK's spats with the coaching staff and well, he seemed to rub his team mates the wrong way too. MT is a disciplinarian.

Good luck with that, if he hated Martin, Slewfoot is in a world of hurt next season.

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08-24-2012, 05:01 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Therrien has no patience for guys with the ego the size of PK's. It's well documented, PK's spats with the coaching staff and well, he seemed to rub his team mates the wrong way too. MT is a disciplinarian.

Good luck with that, if he hated Martin, Slewfoot is in a world of hurt next season.
what the hell are you talking about? been drinking the HF kool-aid?

and by the way, it's: slewban

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08-24-2012, 06:19 AM
  #195
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I would say almost every team in the league would drool at the thought of getting P.K.
:Laugh:

There's very few organizations that would want a headache like him anywhere near their locker room.

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Originally Posted by Habsrback View Post
Talk about a biased analysis. Subban "not even close" , "seems to be going the Dion Phaneuf path"...you don't have a clue of who Subban is.

At this point, I agree that Ryan's value is SLIGHTLY higher than Subban's, and I will not go down the path of inventing weaknesses for Ryan to back that up. But Subban has a hell of a lot more upside, and we also need him more at this point than we need Ryan. so no trade.
Actually, I've got a very good view of who Subban is -- a better view than biased habs fans it seems. Both him and Phaneuf came into the league as highly hyped, big hitting, big shooting, big producing defencemen who have massive egos. Both have highly questionable hockey sense and get excused for that because of their youth and flash.

As both get older (and off their ELCs), they'll be asked to mature and become much more reliable defencemen. As they try and do that, they'll become much less effective overall and it'll take a few years to learn. Subban is just embarking on that stage of his career. Phaneuf as the older guy is obviously past it. Don't believe me? Dig up this thread in a year when we're comparing Subban's value to a couple of middle-of-the-road NHLers.

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08-24-2012, 06:39 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
At this point... not even close.

Ryan doesn't really have anything "wrong" with him per se. He just needs to find a consistent role and a decent centre. Move him to a team where he'll be the #1 winger, and he'll prove the investment worthwhile. At the very least, he'll be a 1-man productivity generator for the line he's on, and not cause any problems. There's no real knocks on his game. He's also a highly proven (and remarkably consistent) offensive player in this league, having scored over 120 goals over the past 4 seasons, combined with a decent physical presence.

Subban is a flashy player without a doubt, but he's got way too many holes in his game to be a guy that a team would want as a top defenceman. He's also got a massively overinflated ego and as a result seems to be going down the Dion Phaneuf path of things where he needs to get a whole lot worse before he gets better and starts to fix the holes in his game. Subban hasn't gone through that reality check, and I think it's a really tough sell for a team to give up substantial value on him when there's a pretty good chance he's going to be worth less next year.

Furthermore, look around the league at any of the big market teams that have $5m+ in cap space. Most of them would absolutely love to add Bobby Ryan to their lineup and give up a fairly substantial ransom to do so. 30+ goals, size, 25 years old, a reasonable defensive game, and 3 years left on his contract at $5.1m. Now ask yourself how many of those want the headache that Subban is going to bring?
Wow, maybe you should know what you're talking about perhaps before posting this abortion of a post?

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08-24-2012, 07:35 AM
  #197
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[Ducks]
Ryan
Allen

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08-24-2012, 10:12 AM
  #198
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dmen that arent chris pronger with a 10 year plus history of being difference makers for a cup run... tend to have less value then forwards.

its just the way the NHL works. You have to look long and hard to find any examples of teams throwing everything and the kitchen sink into a trade offer for a dman.

on the other hand overpayments for young powerforwards with a moderate amount of success seem to happen every other year or two. The modifyer lately is the contract/cap situation.

Ryan's contract status at the moment doesnt suck. Pk is a rfa. so advantage Ryan on contract as well as position.

Even if PK was a much better dman then Ryan is a forward... and even if PK's attitude was better too.. he still wouldnt have as much trade value given all the factors that go on with real nhl decesion making.

but that said, it only takes one freak to upset the apple court. One stupid gm acting alone on his own jusgement system can easily overpay for a player that evryone else agrees to be untradable even.

Look what Montreal gave up for Gomez as a pefect example of this. So at the end of the day, none of us 'experts' here know who has more trade value to the real NHL GMs that would ultimately make the real trade for one of these guys.

But smart betting money is that Ryan would fetch a much better return. Id need at least 1000-1 odds to bet on Subban getting the better return

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08-24-2012, 10:55 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by NickRash61 View Post
I'll take the big two-way consistent 30 goal scoring power forward
The same guy who's one of only about 6 players that have scored 30+ goals each of the last 4 seasons, which coincidentally were his first 4 season in the NHL.

Players who have NOT scored 30+ in the last 4 seasons include guys like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Crosby, Eric Staal, Jeff Carter, and Rick Nash to name a few.

Of the top10 regular season teams last year, Ryan is a top line forward on all of them. Subban doesn't even make the top4 for some of them.

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08-24-2012, 12:02 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
The horse has been beaten, eaten, digested and it has rotten.

For the majority we all agreed on Ryan and Subban have similar value (Same ball park..),

I'd see Anaheim, Calgary, Colombus, Florida, NJD, NYI, NYR, Ottawa, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, San Jose, Saint Louis, Tampa, Vancouver and the Caps taking Ryan and Boston, Buffalo, Carolina, Chicago, Colorado, Dallas, Detroit, LA, Minny, MTL, Nashville, Philly and Toronto taking Subban.. So that make's it kinda even.
vancouver need a top6 gritty 220 power forward more than they need subban , of course the canucks would love to have subban but they have a need for size and grit up front. Other than the right handed shot vancouver has a very good D. and dont need subban. The need for ryan in vancouver is greater.

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