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Old
08-23-2012, 05:32 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninetynine View Post
He's a .900+ goalie in the AHL and

in the NHL has had off and on years

08-09 with the Canes = .901 Acceptable

next year with canes = .850 Horrible, but small sample size [7 games]

after trade to much better team in Philly = improved to .920

2010-2011 with Phantoms = .926

Also, his 1 game with the Flyers that year is too small of a sample size to even count.

Last year he was a .916 in the AHL as a starting netminder and played 56 of 76 games in that AHL season.

I think he's proven he can play an NHL back-up role, although the 2010 playoffs was a product of the incredible D corps we had at the time.
All he's proven in recent years, going back to the lockout, is that he gets sent to the AHL. Because he isn't a very good backup. Outside of the one fluke season where he was babysat by a great defense, he's averaged about 7 starts per year since the lockout. And it's not because he was sitting on the bench, it's because he was in the AHL; he was in the AHL because he sucks in the NHL.

Edit: To put it in perspective, Leighton has played 35 games since 06-07 outside of his fluke year which was fueled by extraordinary and unique circumstances. Bob, in only two years, has played 86 while putting up better career numbers than Leighton...after definitively stealing Leighton's job.

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Old
08-23-2012, 05:40 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
What ARE backup stats to you? I'm not sure you even realize what is normal for a backup.

Here is a list of some of the backups in the league last year and their career save percentages.


Schneider - .928
Rask - .926
Harding - .916
Lindback .914
Giguere - .913
Enroth - .913
Biron - .911
Greiss - .911
Bachman - .911
Reimer - .911
Dubnyk - .910
Bernier - .910
Clemmensen - .910
C. Mason - .910
Neuvirth - .909
Bobrovsky - .909
Elliott - .909
Ellis .908
LaBarbera - .907
Emery - .907
Montoya - .906
Karlsson - .905
Sanford - .904
Auld - .904
Johnson - .904
Garon - .904
MacDonald - .903


That's 27 names that have better career save percentages than Leighton. At best, he is a bottom of the barrel backup.
I never said he was a great backup. Bob was the backup last year. He was bad. The Flyers were fine. I would not have been comfortable with Bob heading into the playoffs as the #1 if Bryz was benched or injured. If Leighton puts up similar numbers, what is the difference? I said it earlier in the off season and I'll say it again. He'll probably play 20-25 games, win 12-15 of them, have a GAA around 3, and a save % around .900 for the year. Is that good? No. But he's the backup. If Bryz gets hurt for the year, Marty Boron wasn't going to lead us to a Cup anyway. He'll be fine, and if not, he's the backup goalie. Not exactly a crippling handicap if your backup sucks (remember last year?).

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08-23-2012, 05:43 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
All he's proven in recent years, going back to the lockout, is that he gets sent to the AHL. Because he isn't a very good backup. Outside of the one fluke season where he was babysat by a great defense, he's averaged about 7 starts per year since the lockout. And it's not because he was sitting on the bench, it's because he was in the AHL; he was in the AHL because he sucks in the NHL.

Edit: To put it in perspective, Leighton has played 35 games since 06-07 outside of his fluke year which was fueled by extraordinary and unique circumstances. Bob, in only two years, has played 86 while putting up better career numbers than Leighton...after definitively stealing Leighton's job.
Why is it being called a fluke year again? As I pointed put earlier, 92 games or something of his 100 game career is save percentage is above .900. Wouldn't the other ten games be considered the fluke, not the majority of his career?

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08-23-2012, 05:59 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Why is it being called a fluke year again? As I pointed put earlier, 92 games or something of his 100 game career is save percentage is above .900. Wouldn't the other ten games be considered the fluke, not the majority of his career?
What? I just went through his game logs. He has 53 games out of 120 total (including playoffs) where his save percentage is below .900. One of us is clearly very bad at counting.

...Well, it's not me. I just recounted, and got 53 games below .900 once again.

I consider the 09-10 season a fluke because it simply is. He was part of a unique situation where, despite clearly lacking the skill to put up the numbers he did (anybody watching could see that), he did anyways because of the exceptional defense in front of him. That's an extremely unusual and rare occurrence. It's one year that's very unlike the others.

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08-23-2012, 06:37 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
What? I just went through his game logs. He has 53 games out of 120 total (including playoffs) where his save percentage is below .900. One of us is clearly very bad at counting.

...Well, it's not me. I just recounted, and got 53 games below .900 once again.

I consider the 09-10 season a fluke because it simply is. He was part of a unique situation where, despite clearly lacking the skill to put up the numbers he did (anybody watching could see that), he did anyways because of the exceptional defense in front of him. That's an extremely unusual and rare occurrence. It's one year that's very unlike the others.
I'm talking averages not individual games. Look at my post on the last page. Essentially says he has had three seasons of sustained play (19, 34, and 34 games). Throw in his eight game campaign his first year and that is 90+ games of over .900 save percentage. His other seasons of sparse play have not been that nice. If you look at his averages, there is no fluke season. He's a + .900 save percentage goalie. No fluke anywhere.

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08-23-2012, 06:41 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm talking averages not individual games. Look at my post on the last page. Essentially says he has had three seasons of sustained play (19, 34, and 34 games). Throw in his eight game campaign his first year and that is 90+ games of over .900 save percentage. His other seasons of sparse play have not been that nice. If you look at his averages, there is no fluke season. He's a + .900 save percentage goalie. No fluke anywhere.
I literally have no idea what you're trying to prove. Your average shows that in his 104ish games he has a .900 or above in 90 games. Your math must be way off, because the reality is that flat out didn't occur.

Edit:If 53 of his games are below .900, he would need to have played 140+ games for your statement to be true. He hasn't done that. At the rate he generally plays (under 10 a year), it would take 3-5 seasons for him to even hit that mark.

It's also worth noting that, per Haute Couturier's post, those numbers still sorta suck for a backup.

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08-23-2012, 07:24 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm talking averages not individual games. Look at my post on the last page. Essentially says he has had three seasons of sustained play (19, 34, and 34 games). Throw in his eight game campaign his first year and that is 90+ games of over .900 save percentage. His other seasons of sparse play have not been that nice. If you look at his averages, there is no fluke season. He's a + .900 save percentage goalie. No fluke anywhere.
When that season is completely unlike any other it is a fluke.

27 games in 09-10: .918sv%
77 games during rest of career: .896 sv%

There's also a world of difference between the .900 and the .901 save percentage he posted early in his career and the .918 he posted with the Flyers. In today's NHL a .900sv% is barely NHL caliber. A .918 is well above league average. To illustrate the tremendous difference: The Flyers gave up roughly 2330 shots last season. A .900 save percentage over a full season would let in 42 more goals than a .918 save percentage. A 42 goal difference is about the equivalent of a 14 point swing in the standings.

You can't lump in his .900, .901, and .918 save percentages as if they are the same when they aren't in the same stratosphere. Face facts. All evidence points to that season being a fluke just like all evidence points to him being a 3rd string goalie.

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08-23-2012, 07:29 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I literally have no idea what you're trying to prove. Your average shows that in his 104ish games he has a .900 or above in 90 games. Your math must be way off, because the reality is that flat out didn't occur.

Edit:If 53 of his games are below .900, he would need to have played 140+ games for your statement to be true. He hasn't done that. At the rate he generally plays (under 10 a year), it would take 3-5 seasons for him to even hit that mark.

It's also worth noting that, per Haute Couturier's post, those numbers still sorta suck for a backup.
Look at his stats again. This isn't that hard.

2002-03 he played in 8 games and had +.900
2003-04 he played 34 games and was at .900
2008-09 he played in 19 games and was +.900
2008-10 he played in 34 games and was +.900

Overall he has played in 104 games and he is over .900 for his career. Being over .900 is not a fluke.

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08-23-2012, 07:35 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I never said he was a great backup. Bob was the backup last year. He was bad. The Flyers were fine. I would not have been comfortable with Bob heading into the playoffs as the #1 if Bryz was benched or injured. If Leighton puts up similar numbers, what is the difference? I said it earlier in the off season and I'll say it again. He'll probably play 20-25 games, win 12-15 of them, have a GAA around 3, and a save % around .900 for the year. Is that good? No. But he's the backup. If Bryz gets hurt for the year, Marty Boron wasn't going to lead us to a Cup anyway. He'll be fine, and if not, he's the backup goalie. Not exactly a crippling handicap if your backup sucks (remember last year?).
You keep pointing out that his numbers are backup numbers except they aren't. That's the difference. When you play in a competitive division as the Atlantic you need every point possible. It doesn't make sense for the Flyers to jump at the opportunity to sign an AHL goalie when the league is full of competent backups. The Flyers are a good enough team that he probably won't be the difference in making the playoffs, but he could be the difference in home ice and better match ups.

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08-23-2012, 09:28 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
You keep pointing out that his numbers are backup numbers except they aren't. That's the difference. When you play in a competitive division as the Atlantic you need every point possible. It doesn't make sense for the Flyers to jump at the opportunity to sign an AHL goalie when the league is full of competent backups. The Flyers are a good enough team that he probably won't be the difference in making the playoffs, but he could be the difference in home ice and better match ups.
I doubt it comes down to Leighton. Who did you want? Biron? Bob? The other choices weren't much better. Biron put up similar numbers on a much better defensive team but everyone was chomping at the bit to get him here. His .904 is OK, but Leighton's is unfathomable.

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08-23-2012, 09:41 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Slap Happy View Post
yep, youre right about that. All of those teams jumped all over him for half the price when he went through waivers. good call
Entirely different circumstances between a mid season pickup and off season signing as a UFA. Nice try though.

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08-23-2012, 09:59 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I doubt it comes down to Leighton. Who did you want? Biron? Bob? The other choices weren't much better. Biron put up similar numbers on a much better defensive team but everyone was chomping at the bit to get him here. His .904 is OK, but Leighton's is unfathomable.
Yes.

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08-23-2012, 10:22 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Entirely different circumstances between a mid season pickup and off season signing as a UFA. Nice try though.
At this point you're throwing mud at the wall just to see what'll stick.

The point remains: If he was the goalie you think he is, he would've been claimed. There's a reason he wasn't.

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08-24-2012, 09:38 AM
  #89
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The facts are there. If you don't see them you're blind which is why I ignore all these Leighton supporters. He has far, far more AHL games played then NHL at the age of 31. Last season he was in the AHL because nobody wanted him. Last season in the AHL he has more games played (30) then all his NHL seasons except for 03-04 (back when people were still giving him a shot and didn't realize how bad of an NHL goalie he was/is). He's responsible for the most atrocious SC clinching goal in the history of the sport. Aside from one season where fans of the team themselves claim he played behind a terrific defense that covered for him (I'm one of those people) he has posted horrible NHL stats in every season of his. Nobody wanted him besides us and that's because we traded our backup goalie, had little FA options, and our organization is kind to former Flyers.

He's an AHL all-star, but a horrible, horrible NHL goalie. All the facts support that and even just watching him supports that. Hell, the vast majority of people (or in other words, popular opinion) support that.

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08-24-2012, 09:50 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I doubt it comes down to Leighton. Who did you want? Biron? Bob? The other choices weren't much better. Biron put up similar numbers on a much better defensive team but everyone was chomping at the bit to get him here. His .904 is OK, but Leighton's is unfathomable.
Biron has a career .911 save percentage. I think he is more likely to be competent next year although he is getting older. I also think Bobs would have been more likely to perform well on the Flyers than Leighton. Leighton has been out of the league for two years at the age of 31. I'm not even sure he can handle the speed of the game at this point. Heck I'd even rather give Hovinen a shot.

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08-24-2012, 10:07 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
Biron has a career .911 save percentage. I think he is more likely to be competent next year although he is getting older. I also think Bobs would have been more likely to perform well on the Flyers than Leighton. Leighton has been out of the league for two years at the age of 31. I'm not even sure he can handle the speed of the game at this point. Heck I'd even rather give Hovinen a shot.
Well said. Not to mention that Biron even has successful bouts as a starter. With us even. Even Bob has one successful season as a starter and he only has two seasons in the league lol and he's a hell of a lot younger with a lot more potential.

Agreed on Hovinen. I'd rather give the untested prospect with potential a shot then the tested 31 year old AHL fodder...that says a lot about Leighton.

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08-24-2012, 10:32 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
Biron has a career .911 save percentage. I think he is more likely to be competent next year although he is getting older. I also think Bobs would have been more likely to perform well on the Flyers than Leighton. Leighton has been out of the league for two years at the age of 31. I'm not even sure he can handle the speed of the game at this point. Heck I'd even rather give Hovinen a shot.
I'm not saying Leighton was the best or will be the best backup in the league, but Biron's .904 save percentage at age 34 on a far superior defensive team should not be acceptable if Leighton's numbers are not. Biron is a better goalie. That is not a question, but Leighton has shown he can put up those numbers (don't say he can't because the fact that he has unequivocally shows that he can). He'll be fine. Give it a rest, there will be plenty to complain about when Leighton loses his first game and plenty of bogus excuses to be made when Leighton gets his first shutout.

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08-24-2012, 11:34 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm not saying Leighton was the best or will be the best backup in the league, but Biron's .904 save percentage at age 34 on a far superior defensive team should not be acceptable if Leighton's numbers are not. Biron is a better goalie. That is not a question, but Leighton has shown he can put up those numbers (don't say he can't because the fact that he has unequivocally shows that he can). He'll be fine. Give it a rest, there will be plenty to complain about when Leighton loses his first game and plenty of bogus excuses to be made when Leighton gets his first shutout.
No one said his numbers were acceptable. The difference is that a .904 is below Biron's standards. People prefer Biron because he has the ability to be much better. Which goalie will more likely have a good season? The goalie with a .911 career sv% or the goalie with the .902% ? It's not rocket science. I think you need to give it a rest since all evidence refutes your claims.

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08-24-2012, 11:50 AM
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Anyone get the feeling that Leighton will not be dressed as the backup when the season starts? I have to think they are either going with one of our prospects as the backup, or that Leighton is just waming the seat until said prospect is ready to go in the minors.

I'm not that in tune with our organizational depth at goalie. Who do we have in the system? And is there any chance someone moves up to the NHL this season?

For the record I'm a Leighton supporter, he hasn't had the best luck in his career, and I just think he is a good guy and is capable of backing up Bryz for 15 games or so (yes that would mean Bryz plays high 70's, which I think he might this year).

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08-24-2012, 12:19 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
No one said his numbers were acceptable. The difference is that a .904 is below Biron's standards. People prefer Biron because he has the ability to be much better. Which goalie will more likely have a good season? The goalie with a .911 career sv% or the goalie with the .902% ? It's not rocket science. I think you need to give it a rest since all evidence refutes your claims.
Lol. What evidence? Leighton is a backup goalie with backup goalie numbers. That is the evidence. Biron is backup goalie with slightly better backup goalie numbers. Leighton is not better than Biron and I never said he was. I would prefer Biron over Leighton. I would prefer a lot of goalies over Leighton. But the difference between Leighton and Biron is not playoffs/no playoffs or whatever scenario you are cooking up. If Leighton wins 12 games with a .900 save percentage, which is a pretty safe bet, he will have fulfilled his role as the backup goalie. If Bryzgalov is injured for the year and Leighton has to be the starter, that would be terrible and the season would be in jeopardy, just like if 90% of the league's starting goalies got injured for the year and the backup had to start. Once again, he's the backup. Get over it. He's not the starter, and no one is claiming he is or should be. He's a backup with backup numbers. End of discussion (until you say NU-UH! Biron's save percentage is .009 points higher!).

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08-24-2012, 12:35 PM
  #96
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Lol. What evidence? Leighton is a backup goalie with backup goalie numbers. That is the evidence. Biron is backup goalie with slightly better backup goalie numbers. Leighton is not better than Biron and I never said he was. I would prefer Biron over Leighton. I would prefer a lot of goalies over Leighton. But the difference between Leighton and Biron is not playoffs/no playoffs or whatever scenario you are cooking up. If Leighton wins 12 games with a .900 save percentage, which is a pretty safe bet, he will have fulfilled his role as the backup goalie. If Bryzgalov is injured for the year and Leighton has to be the starter, that would be terrible and the season would be in jeopardy, just like if 90% of the league's starting goalies got injured for the year and the backup had to start. Once again, he's the backup. Get over it. He's not the starter, and no one is claiming he is or should be. He's a backup with backup numbers. End of discussion (until you say NU-UH! Biron's save percentage is .009 points higher!).
You simply fail to understand that there is a significant difference between the two. A .900 goalie would average 3 goals a game if he faces 30 shots a game. A .911 goalie would average 2.67 goals per game on those same 30 shots. The Flyers would need to score 4 goals a game to win with Leighton. They would need to score 3 goals a game to win with Biron. The best offense in the league would have a hard time winning most Leighton starts considering the top ranked offense averaged 3.33 goals last season.

In case you haven't noticed, the standings tend to be close. There was a 1 point difference between finishing 5th or 6th last year in the East. There was a 2 point difference in finishing 1st or 2nd in the West. There was a 3 point gap between the 4th and 6th seeds in the West. Leighton isn't going to start a ton of games, but wasting starts on him can make a difference in seeding when the gap can be tiny.

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08-24-2012, 06:15 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
You simply fail to understand that there is a significant difference between the two. A .900 goalie would average 3 goals a game if he faces 30 shots a game. A .911 goalie would average 2.67 goals per game on those same 30 shots. The Flyers would need to score 4 goals a game to win with Leighton. They would need to score 3 goals a game to win with Biron. The best offense in the league would have a hard time winning most Leighton starts considering the top ranked offense averaged 3.33 goals last season.

In case you haven't noticed, the standings tend to be close. There was a 1 point difference between finishing 5th or 6th last year in the East. There was a 2 point difference in finishing 1st or 2nd in the West. There was a 3 point gap between the 4th and 6th seeds in the West. Leighton isn't going to start a ton of games, but wasting starts on him can make a difference in seeding when the gap can be tiny.
Leighton would actually let in 2.96 goals per 30. If you're rounding that to 3, shouldn't you also round up 2.67? Or does that not get rounded up because it is not Leighton?

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08-24-2012, 07:05 PM
  #98
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Leighton would actually let in 2.96 goals per 30. If you're rounding that to 3, shouldn't you also round up 2.67? Or does that not get rounded up because it is not Leighton?
over a small sample size of say 20 games the rounding of 2.96 to 3 makes no difference.


i really hope his signing has little to no affect on the team. i want him to play as little as possible and to be honest i wish they would've given robo-hip Niitty a shot at the back-up position but his playing career is most likely done anyway.


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Old
08-24-2012, 08:08 PM
  #99
35NW8ING
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
At this point you're throwing mud at the wall just to see what'll stick.

The point remains: If he was the goalie you think he is, he would've been claimed. There's a reason he wasn't.
Wrong again. I said nothing about waiver claims, you brought that to the discussion. I'm talking about this off season when we signed him, not when he was waived. Nice straw man. I'll post it again, so try not to change the circumstances or change the meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
If Leighton wasn't signed here, another team would have surely picked him up, meanwhile less than 1% of todays D1 goalies will ever play in 1 NHL game, let alone have a career as a professional in the US.
So for the second time it should be clear for you, nothing about the time ML was placed on waivers. Have a waiver debate with someone else. Different time, different circumstances, not even close.

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Old
08-24-2012, 08:36 PM
  #100
flyersguy33*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Entirely different circumstances between a mid season pickup and off season signing as a UFA. Nice try though.
in no way whatsoever is it different. If a team wanted to have him on their team, for less than what he is making with his current contract, they would have picked him up.

Here's an easy fact: He ****ing sucks, no team wants him, and if no team wanted him at less than what he is making now, no one wants him at all.

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