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Off-season Armchair GM Thread Part IX

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Old
08-23-2012, 10:21 PM
  #276
dwood16
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
Who was Marleau playing with? Was he playing on a cup contender? Was he playing with Allstars? Marleau came into the league at 18. Couture came into the league at 21 and was playing with Allstars on a playoff team. Who do you think would have more points in their first 3 seasons?

It is not closer than you think. Marleau was bumped from center because we got Joe Thornton and he had good Chemistry with Jumbo.

Your last sentence is completely false. He isn't the best passer in the league but he is good at. I've seen him make quite a few great passes. He doesn't get eaten alive by elite fowards in big games. He averages just below .70PPG in the playoffs, which is pretty good. He was our only player scoring for us in the WCF the last two years. Those are big games.
You are asking a lot of questions... probably because you aren't old enough to remember Marleau's first few seasons.

Also you are off on the ages a bit. Couture was barely 20 his first season and first playoffs. Marleau 18. If you compare their stats at 20-22 Couture still absolutely crushes Marleau.

He also broke into the league playing with Owen ****ing Nolan, Damphousse, Ricci, Freisen, Bernie Nicholls ,Sturm, Joe Murphy, Korolyuk, tony Granato, etc. Those aren't chumps.

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08-23-2012, 10:22 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Hmmm Couture has played 184 games so far and has 130 points
Marleau in 236 games (first 3 seasons) had 117 lol. 52 more games 13 less points.

"Marleau better than Couture will ever be" It's closer than you think.
Also, there is a reason Marleau was the one who got bumped from center. He can't pass and he get's eatin alive by elite forwards... especially in big games.
Come on, really. Couture was 22 his rookie season. Marleau was 17 during the pre-season of his rookie season. Couture has played with the likes of Joe Thornton, Ryane Clowe, Dany Heatley, Joe Pavelski, Marty Havlat, and Marleau himself. Who did Marleau play with? Marleau completed three full seasons before the age that Couture entered the league.

Marleau was bumped from center by Joe freakin' Thornton, and that he has the natural talents of a winger that made him the obvious choice over Pavelski.

And come on, Marleau can pass. He's not an elite passer, but he's just as good or better than Couture. Marleau had a season of 52 assists, playing between Michalek and Bernier. Couture will never hit 50 assists, I'd be surprised if he ever hit 40.

And lastly, Marleau plays against top forwards every single night. In fact, using quality of competition metrics based on the premise that the best forwards on a team get the most ice time, Marleau plays against the 7th toughest forward competition in the league. Couture is pretty sheltered at this point. When teams put their best forwards against Couture, his production nose-dives, whereas Marleau puts up numbers no matter the competition.

So sit the **** down. This is what I mean by some Sharks fans overrating Couture.

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08-23-2012, 10:28 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
i don't think you'll convince him to change his opinion, though i agree. it's a pov that always comes from older sports fan - my favorite player growing up is way better than your favorite player growing up (or something like that). probably driven more by nostalgia and emotions than actual logic. the '92 olympic "dream team" vs the 2012 olympic team was another one of those discussions. in the last 20/30 years athletes have gotten so much stronger, faster, better prepared at younger ages. the better conditioning, training, and new developments in nutrition, sports equipment are enough to turn a 60s/70s superstar into just another star in the 2000s - if not worse.
Two in a row missed my point.

Let me re-iterate since reading comprehension appears to be low.

Had Bobby Orr played against 'better' competition he likely would have simply been a 'better' player for it. He would have likely adapted. Also, the weak competition argument doesn't hold a lot of weight offensively given that other great scorers should have equally cleaned up, yet a defensemen was regularly beating forwards regardless. Unless you think Bobby Orr was the only 'great' player in the game at the time...

You guys sound like you just want to have a different opinion to be 'cool', but the fact is you would have a very tough time finding any respected hockey expert who would give any answer besides "Bobby Orr" to the question of the greatest d-man of all time. Lidstrom was incredibly good, and amazingly consistent (and healthy) but Orr was the most talented d-man to ever play the game.

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08-23-2012, 10:34 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Also you are off on the ages a bit. Couture was barely 20 his first season and first playoffs. Marleau 18. If you compare their stats at 20-22 Couture still absolutely crushes Marleau.

He also broke into the league playing with Owen ****ing Nolan, Damphousse, Ricci, Freisen, Bernie Nicholls ,Sturm, Joe Murphy, Korolyuk, tony Granato, etc. Those aren't chumps.
No, you're actually wrong on the ages. Couture turned 21 in March when he was called up. He was 21 by the playoffs.

Yeah, Couture's numbers are better because he played on a much better team, got much more icetime, and played with better players. But it's not like he put up hugely better numbers from ages 21 to 22.

Couture put up 56 points in his first full season (21), Marleau put up 52 points in his 21-year-old season. But if you look closer, Couture got almost 2 more minutes of ice time in that season than Marleau did. And in Couture's 22 year old season, he got almost 5 more minutes per game than Marleau did. And then you look at the fact that Couture got 10 PP goals in both of his seasons. And then you consider ice time, an Marleau was more impressive. Plus, it was harder to put up big numbers directly before the lockout, when Marleau was 21-24, so you can't even compare raw numbers anyway.

And then you consider that Couture got to marinate and develop for three years, and Marleau was thrown to the wolves when it's almost consensus that he should have been sent back to juniors (or the AHL, if that had been possible) and that that would have helped his development greatly. Marleau is and always has been the superior hockey player, and I don't see how that's arguable.

And I'm sorry, but are you really trying to compare Nolan, 34-year-old Damphousse, Ricci, and the rest to the forwards the Sharks have now? Please, there's a reason that those teams didn't make as much noise.

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08-23-2012, 10:35 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
You are asking a lot of questions... probably because you aren't old enough to remember Marleau's first few seasons.

Also you are off on the ages a bit. Couture was barely 20 his first season and first playoffs. Marleau 18. If you compare their stats at 20-22 Couture still absolutely crushes Marleau.

He also broke into the league playing with Owen ****ing Nolan, Damphousse, Ricci, Freisen, Bernie Nicholls ,Sturm, Joe Murphy, Korolyuk, tony Granato, etc. Those aren't chumps.
Player+-QoCCorsi QoCCorsi Rel QoC
Marleau.0791.0401.497
Couture.023.8501.048

End of discussion. Couture has a long way to go to carry Marleau's jock.

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08-23-2012, 10:37 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Couture will never hit 50 assists, I'd be surprised if he ever hit 40.
I only disagree with this...

He was only 6 away from 40 last season. I actually expect Logan to revert back into a playmaker in maybe 2-3 seasons. He's a coach's player now, and he will shoot it all day if that's what coach says. But when those top talent players finally earn their respect, they go back to the way they like to play. Just like Jumbo after Boston.

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08-23-2012, 10:39 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
I only disagree with this...

He was only 6 away from 40 last season. I actually expect Logan to revert back into a playmaker in maybe 2-3 seasons. He's a coach's player now, and he will shoot it all day if that's what coach says. But when those top talent players finally earn their respect, they go back to the way they like to play. Just like Jumbo after Boston.
I'll consider the possibility. I just don't see Couture as having great on-ice vision. He certainly has the talent and hands to make the passes, but he doesn't have the elite vision that would make him a top-notch playmaker, considering his size.

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08-23-2012, 10:43 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
I only disagree with this...

He was only 6 away from 40 last season. I actually expect Logan to revert back into a playmaker in maybe 2-3 seasons. He's a coach's player now, and he will shoot it all day if that's what coach says. But when those top talent players finally earn their respect, they go back to the way they like to play. Just like Jumbo after Boston.
Jumbo's change was because Lindros broke his face.

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08-23-2012, 10:46 PM
  #284
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[QUOTE=dwood16;53815331]Hmmm Couture has played 184 games so far and has 130 points
Marleau in 236 games (first 3 seasons) had 117 lol. 52 more games 13 less points.QUOTE]

Couture wasn't even able to make the big team by the age that Marleau was when he had already scored the majority of the points you referenced.

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08-23-2012, 10:46 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Anyone care to weigh in? Everyone said DW was smart for not giving Suter/Parise 13 years at ridiculous cost, but when it's rolled back and cut down to a 5 year contract or something, DW will look stupid because you think these GM's knew these kind of rollbacks on term and salary were coming with a new CBA given league dynamics so this offseason in fact this was the ideal time to hand out big contracts, not the worst (starting to become MHO).
ill avoid the couture debates (couture will not be the #1 center on a cup contending team), and the old hockey vs new hockey (being good today is harder then before, but those other players would of also trained and likely have been better because of it) and focus on this.

The contracts this year or any year prior to new CBA, WILL NOT be reduced in length.

Also with most of the money in the weber/parise/suter contracts being signing bonus's, they will not be hit with the reduction %, which is why so much is salary bonus's. They get that not matter what happens with the CBA.

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08-23-2012, 10:47 PM
  #286
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So Marleau entered the league playing on an inferior team than Couture did, but got less ice time. Hm................

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08-23-2012, 10:50 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I'll consider the possibility. I just don't see Couture as having great on-ice vision. He certainly has the talent and hands to make the passes, but he doesn't have the elite vision that would make him a top-notch playmaker, considering his size.
Juicy anticipates and sees the ice quite well. What are you basing your assumption on??

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08-23-2012, 10:52 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
Jumbo's change was because Lindros broke his face.
If only a broken face would improve my career that much....

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08-23-2012, 10:56 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by FeedingFrenzy View Post
Juicy anticipates and sees the ice quite well. What are you basing your assumption on??
I just don't see it. It's an opinion.

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08-23-2012, 11:01 PM
  #290
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It's not even meant to argue a point, but the talk reminded of this beauty…



Please make season happen.... please?

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08-23-2012, 11:05 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
It's not even meant to argue a point, but the talk reminded of this beauty…



Please make season happen.... please?
That was gorgeous.

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08-23-2012, 11:21 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Anyone care to weigh in? Everyone said DW was smart for not giving Suter/Parise 13 years at ridiculous cost, but when it's rolled back and cut down to a 5 year contract or something, DW will look stupid because you think these GM's knew these kind of rollbacks on term and salary were coming with a new CBA given league dynamics so this offseason in fact this was the ideal time to hand out big contracts, not the worst (starting to become MHO).
Just to make you happy, I'll respond. There's no way that rollbacks and term limits will include retroactively limiting contracts signed under a previous CBA. It would be illegal. Suter and Parise and everyone else that got a ridiculous term is going to keep those terms. The most that will be done is cutting the salary back whatever negotiated percentage but the years signed for won't be altered.

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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
So Marleau entered the league playing on an inferior team than Couture did, but got less ice time. Hm................
I wouldn't be so quick as to use that as a way to pass judgment on the two players. That particular aspect speaks more to the coaching differences between then and now. Younger players now are given far more and far better opportunities to thrive and succeed than they did back then...at least on this team.

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08-23-2012, 11:24 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
No, you're actually wrong on the ages. Couture turned 21 in March when he was called up. He was 21 by the playoffs.

Yeah, Couture's numbers are better because he played on a much better team, got much more icetime, and played with better players. But it's not like he put up hugely better numbers from ages 21 to 22.

Couture put up 56 points in his first full season (21), Marleau put up 52 points in his 21-year-old season. But if you look closer, Couture got almost 2 more minutes of ice time in that season than Marleau did. And in Couture's 22 year old season, he got almost 5 more minutes per game than Marleau did. And then you look at the fact that Couture got 10 PP goals in both of his seasons. And then you consider ice time, an Marleau was more impressive. Plus, it was harder to put up big numbers directly before the lockout, when Marleau was 21-24, so you can't even compare raw numbers anyway.

And then you consider that Couture got to marinate and develop for three years, and Marleau was thrown to the wolves when it's almost consensus that he should have been sent back to juniors (or the AHL, if that had been possible) and that that would have helped his development greatly. Marleau is and always has been the superior hockey player, and I don't see how that's arguable.

And I'm sorry, but are you really trying to compare Nolan, 34-year-old Damphousse, Ricci, and the rest to the forwards the Sharks have now? Please, there's a reason that those teams didn't make as much noise.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...coutulo01.html

Is this wrong then. Says Couture was 20 through his entire rookie season and playoffs.

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08-23-2012, 11:28 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
That was gorgeous.
He is a natural playmaker playing as a sniper because its a team need..and he's owning at it.

Someone cue up the powerplay assist to Clowe from last year. That was also nice.

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08-23-2012, 11:39 PM
  #295
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http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...coutulo01.html

Is this wrong then. Says Couture was 20 through his entire rookie season and playoffs.
No, he was 20 in the year that he played those 25 games. He was 21 in his Calder Nomination season. Check again.

And secondly, it's interesting that that's the qualm you had with my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
He is a natural playmaker playing as a sniper because its a team need..and he's owning at it.

Someone cue up the powerplay assist to Clowe from last year. That was also nice.
No, he's equal parts playmaker and sniper, and he's more of a shoot-first player. That doesn't preclude him from making nice passes, but those passes don't make him a playmaker (I'm starting to question whether you define the term "playmaker" correctly, because 'playmaker=/=passer'.)

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08-23-2012, 11:40 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
He is a natural playmaker playing as a sniper because its a team need..and he's owning at it.

Someone cue up the powerplay assist to Clowe from last year. That was also nice.
He turned 21 on March 28, 2010. He turned 23 on March 28, 2012. March 28, 2010 of course falls at the tail end of the 2009-2010 season, the year he entered the league. His Rookie season was 2010-2011, officially.

Good lord, who cares?

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08-24-2012, 12:08 AM
  #297
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
No, he was 20 in the year that he played those 25 games. He was 21 in his Calder Nomination season. Check again.

And secondly, it's interesting that that's the qualm you had with my post.



No, he's equal parts playmaker and sniper, and he's more of a shoot-first player. That doesn't preclude him from making nice passes, but those passes don't make him a playmaker (I'm starting to question whether you define the term "playmaker" correctly, because 'playmaker=/=passer'.)
No he was a playmaker his entire career until he played for SJ... and yes he was 20 when he entered the league. Like I said. Doesn't matter that he only played 25 games. He was basically 2 years older than Marleau but much more effective in his first 3 seasons. It took Marleau 6 seasons to crack 52 points lol.

As for qualms. My qualm is that you can't see that couture's defensive game is better than Marleau's and the passing ability thing is just too ridiculous for me to respond to.

I hate the fact that I'm in ANOTHER arrguement over Marleau with a Marleau fanboy or girl. There's no winning these because you always have an excuse for him no matter how glaring the flaw. The questions of his heart, the fact that he almost never battles for loose pucks, his being absolutely terrible defensively and costing us 2 playoff series against the Wings, his always being injured in the playoffs when he looks like he doesn't give a **** out there. It goes on and on.

I'm not even saying all those above things are legitimate but some of them are... and I don't have anything against him. I think he's become a good player, albeit a little later than I thought but still damn good. I even defended him in the playoffs last year because he was hitting people and skating hard. Also, I'm not a big Couture guy. I'm unbiased.

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08-24-2012, 12:32 AM
  #298
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No he was a playmaker his entire career until he played for SJ... and yes he was 20 when he entered the league. Like I said. Doesn't matter that he only played 25 games. He was basically 2 years older than Marleau but much more effective in his first 3 seasons. It took Marleau 6 seasons to crack 52 points lol.

As for qualms. My qualm is that you can't see that couture's defensive game is better than Marleau's and the passing ability thing is just too ridiculous for me to respond to.

I hate the fact that I'm in ANOTHER arrguement over Marleau with a Marleau fanboy or girl. There's no winning these because you always have an excuse for him no matter how glaring the flaw. The questions of his heart, the fact that he almost never battles for loose pucks, his being absolutely terrible defensively and costing us 2 playoff series against the Wings, his always being injured in the playoffs when he looks like he doesn't give a **** out there. It goes on and on.

I'm not even saying all those above things are legitimate but some of them are... and I don't have anything against him. I think he's become a good player, albeit a little later than I thought but still damn good. I even defended him in the playoffs last year because he was hitting people and skating hard. Also, I'm not a big Couture guy. I'm unbiased.
And while I'm not going to pretend Marleau's not my favorite Shark, I'm also not blind to his flaws, as you claim. I question is intensity levels, of course. I get that he doesn't always look engaged.

But calling him worse defensively than Couture is just simply untrue. Marleau, as I mentioned in the post you chose not to quote, faced the 7th toughest forward competition in the entire league. And he pushed the play. Couture was very sheltered. Not as much as Eberle or Skinner, but still relatively sheltered. And Marleau has a history of strong defensive play.

Don't you see? Couture is sheltered, Marleau is not, and yet their point totals are the same. At this point I'll probably say that Couture and Marleau are about even in offensive play (goalscoring and playmaking, if you're specific), but Marleau has leaps and bounds over Couture in defensive play, size, physicality, and being able to take a hit.

If you're basing your assessment of Couture's playmaking roots on junior assist totals, it might do you some good to also look at Marleau's junior assist totals. Saying an argument is too ridiculous to respond to is code for "I don't know how to defend myself".

You can poke at Marleau for many things that I'll overlook, but defensive play is not one of them.

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08-24-2012, 01:23 AM
  #299
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
And while I'm not going to pretend Marleau's not my favorite Shark, I'm also not blind to his flaws, as you claim. I question is intensity levels, of course. I get that he doesn't always look engaged.

But calling him worse defensively than Couture is just simply untrue. Marleau, as I mentioned in the post you chose not to quote, faced the 7th toughest forward competition in the entire league. And he pushed the play. Couture was very sheltered. Not as much as Eberle or Skinner, but still relatively sheltered. And Marleau has a history of strong defensive play.

Don't you see? Couture is sheltered, Marleau is not, and yet their point totals are the same. At this point I'll probably say that Couture and Marleau are about even in offensive play (goalscoring and playmaking, if you're specific), but Marleau has leaps and bounds over Couture in defensive play, size, physicality, and being able to take a hit.

If you're basing your assessment of Couture's playmaking roots on junior assist totals, it might do you some good to also look at Marleau's junior assist totals. Saying an argument is too ridiculous to respond to is code for "I don't know how to defend myself".

You can poke at Marleau for many things that I'll overlook, but defensive play is not one of them.
Ok, I'll acknowledge your strength of competition argument that you think is so golden. It's great that he faces that competition and does well in the regular season but that still doesn't take back the 2 times he looked like junior hockey player in the playoffs versus the wings. Also, it's a little early Coutures career for this comparison but I'm sure he'll start facing the top guys too... and I bet he doesn't ***** himself defensively in the playoffs.

The thing is... my idea of defensive play is obviously different than yours. Things like not passing it directly to the other team and being tough on loose pucks go a long way towards being good defensively.

Couture is a fighter and hard to win the puck from, despite his size and lack of speed (which isn't that bad and getting better it seems).

Size, physicality, and being able to take a hit??? What does any of that have to do with being good defensively. What's the point of having size if you won't go anywhere near the boards or loose pucks? Couture will dive in head first if he has to and just engaging gives you a better chance than none. Also if Marleau is so tough and good at taking hits why does everyone keep saying he's playing hurt the last few pathetic playoff performances of his?

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08-24-2012, 02:23 AM
  #300
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Right, which is why players like Raymond Bourque and Teemu Selanne have only achieved success in a single era. And why when Mario Lemieux came back to the clutch-and-grab NHL, he struggled to put up a decent season.
Was there supposed to be a sarcasm smiley on the end of this? Lemieux struggled to put up a decent season? If you're not kidding you better go look at his stats. When he came back he dominated as he's always done. His last healthy season he scored 91 points.

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