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Lance Armstrong will admit to doping (1/11 report)

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Old
08-24-2012, 11:58 AM
  #51
IslesRock4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasilevski View Post
Its hard to give in this case the Tour to the 2nd rider, as much as I like Ullrich, there was evidence he doped, same for Ivan Basso, who would win 2005 Tour. (both in Operacion Puerto)

Then you're already giving in some cases the tour to the 3rd rider or even 4th or 5th... woah
This is what I don't get about stripping his titles. It's pointless, since the new winners will also be riders found guilty of doping or riders that were obviously doping as well.

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08-24-2012, 12:15 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Correct thing to do if he's unable to prove his innocence. Admire the guy for fighting cancer but cheats shouldn't win at anything.
How CAN he prove his innocence for something like this?

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08-24-2012, 12:29 PM
  #53
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Oh Lance...

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08-24-2012, 12:31 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasilevski View Post
2003 Tour...

Armstrong
Ullrich
Vinokourov
Hamilton


Zubeldia could be the winner lmao, I doubt it happens but I'd laugh
Zubeldia was probably doped too, I mean, he was a Basque rider on Euskatel. It's not hard to connect the dots.

Has Vinokourov been implicated in doping that early on? I know he was suspended a few years ago but I think that was for "recent" (at the time of the suspension) violations. He could pick up a TdF "win" to go with his Olympic gold if this nonsense progresses.

Vino, the new face of clean cycling!

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08-24-2012, 12:50 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasilevski View Post
not surprised
The "USADA - Armstrong" thread has 10,419 replies and 1.25 million views.

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08-24-2012, 12:59 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Zubeldia was probably doped too, I mean, he was a Basque rider on Euskatel. It's not hard to connect the dots.

Has Vinokourov been implicated in doping that early on? I know he was suspended a few years ago but I think that was for "recent" (at the time of the suspension) violations. He could pick up a TdF "win" to go with his Olympic gold if this nonsense progresses.

Vino, the new face of clean cycling!
Vino along with Kloden was part of the Ullrich lead Tmobile team. It is highly likely he wasn't clean even then. He like Kloden have escaped relatively easy because they haven't won anything worth noting in TdF. They almost always have been uber domestiques in most of TdFs they contested. IMO they could be found guilty if somebody went after them hard.

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08-24-2012, 01:02 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by RedBaronIndian View Post
Vino along with Kloden was part of the Ullrich lead Tmobile team. It is highly likely he wasn't clean even then. He like Kloden have escaped relatively easy because they haven't won anything worth noting in TdF. They almost always have been uber domestiques in most of TdFs they contested. IMO they could be found guilty if somebody went after them hard.
Good point, T-Mob was always a doping **** show (especially when Bjarne Riis was the team leader).

I've heard unsubstantiated rumors that Kloden paid to make a doping violation go away at some point. No idea how serious of one it was alleged to have been though.

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08-24-2012, 01:21 PM
  #58
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Here are the Top 5 finishers in every TdF that Armstrong won:

First victory - 1999:
1. Lance Armstrong - USA - US Postal
2. Alex Zülle - Schweiz - Banesto
3. Fernando Escartin - Spanien - Kelme
4. Laurent Dufaux - Schweiz - Saeco
5. Ángel Casero - Spanien - Vitalicio Seguros

Second victory - 2000:
1. Lance Armstrong - USA - US Postal
2. Jan Ullrich - Tyskland - Telekom
3. Joseba Beloki - Spanien - Festina
4. Christophe Moreau - Frankrig - Festina
5. Roberto Heras - Spanien - Kelme

Third victory - 2001:
1. Lance Armstrong - USA - US Postal
2. Jan Ullrich - Tyskland - Telekom
3. Joseba Beloki - Spanien - ONCE
4. Andrei Kivilev - Kazakhstan - Cofidis
5. Igor González Galdeano - Spanien - ONCE

Fourth victory - 2002:
1. Lance Armstrong - USA - US Postal
2. Joseba Beloki - Spanien - ONCE
3. Raimondas Rumsas - Litauen - Lampre
4. Santiago Botero - Colombia - Kelme
5. Igor González Galdeano - Spanien - ONCE

Fifth victory - 2003:
1. Lance Armstrong - USA - US Postal
2. Jan Ullrich - Tyskland - Team Bianchi
3. Alexandre Vinokourov - Kazakhstan - Telekom
4. Tyler Hamilton - USA - Team CSC
5. Haimar Zubeldia - Spanien - Euskaltel

Sixth victory - 2004:
1. Lance Armstrong - USA - US Postal
2. Andreas Klöden - Tyskland - T-Mobile
3. Ivan Basso - Italien - Team CSC
4. Jan Ullrich - Tyskland - T-Mobile
5. José Azevedo - Portugal - US Postal

Seventh victory - 2005:
1. Lance Armstrong - USA - Discovery Channel
2. Ivan Basso - Italien - Team CSC
3. Jan Ullrich - Tyskland - T-Mobile
4. Fancisco Mancebo - Spanien - Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne
5. Aleandre Vinokourov - Kazakhstan - T-Mobile

I am having a hard time finding a single rider I would believe is clean on those lists. Look at the freaking teams! USPS, T-Mobile/Telekom, Festina, Banesto, ONCE, Euskaltel, CSC; it's a doper's paradise.

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Old
08-24-2012, 01:23 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
Don't let baseball see what cycling did or titles and awards are going to be stripped. Roger Clemens? There goes his rings and his Cy Youngs. Barry Bonds? Bye bye trophies!
They should be stripped if you have 100% proof there was use of PED

Jason Giambi for example should be stripped of his MVP and runner up Frank Thomas deserves the award

Thomas has never under come scrutiny ,, Infact Thomas was one of the few players trying to get testing in game. The MLBPA/Owners both ignored him

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08-24-2012, 01:23 PM
  #60
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Good, I'm glad he's getting stripped of the titles.

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08-24-2012, 01:28 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
If it is unsubstantiated, why did he stop challenging? If you are truly innocent, why do you stop "because you are tired of all the accusations". You fight until you can fight no more, if you're innocent. If someone accused me of cheating, I'd fight till the end. He still had support. This is implicitly saying, I give up, I did it, I'm a fraud.
It's got to be exhausting both monetarily as well as personally to fight the good fight for so long.. Sometimes you just have to take a dive.

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Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
He's a sham for cheating his way through Tour titles and pretending he didn't. He was as slick as they came. "I didn't do anything wrong! I'm clean! I've been tested so many times!"

If you're going to vehemently deny these allegations, then at least don't lie about it. Because it just makes you look silly. Others came clean. Lance never did. His ego was too big for him to confess to any wrongdoing.
You can't lose if you don't play - Marla Daniels The Wire.........

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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
He's been fighting these allegations since 1999. After 14 years of this crap, I don't blame him for saying to hell with it, regardless of his innocence.
Agreed

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Originally Posted by jaems View Post
Disappointing.

But not wanting to deal with a witchhunt shouldn't allude to guilt.
Seconded


Last edited by FrozenFloor: 08-24-2012 at 04:41 PM.
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08-24-2012, 01:33 PM
  #62
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Nice Marla Daniels reference

"All in the game, yo."

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Old
08-24-2012, 03:45 PM
  #63
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Fact is he likely doped, but I would also bet that most competitive cyclists do. Tests for blood doping had not been effective till 2004, even still there are question marks to its effectiveness. Do I think less of him? No, if he hadn't doped then he never would have been on even ground with his competition. Doping is very common in cycling and people get caught every season, Frank Schleck was caught this year. To call Lance a cheater we have to call all of them cheaters IMO. Heck, even Eddy Merckx tested positive for banned substances back in the day, mind you I believe two of the three substances are no longer banned in competition.
Am I saying it is right? No, but there seems to be little that can be done about it. New variations always come out, new ways to hide it in your system. I will say this though, if Lance and his competition all doped. Then it was Lance's physiology that won him those victories, level the field (everyone dopes theory) and doping advantages become moot. Just my 2 cents.

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08-24-2012, 03:48 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
I know Evilo is going to have a catharsis in this thread when he sees it
Haha, not really, I, for one, don't think this statement changes much.

If he's innocent (and you know I don't think he's innocent AT ALL), I fully understand how he could throw a "whatever" because of the time and energy it takes to fight over that cause.
So I don't think it proves his guilt.

Other elements OTOH...

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08-24-2012, 03:48 PM
  #65
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I'm okay with calling all of them cheaters.

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08-24-2012, 06:06 PM
  #66
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I've always thought the stripping of the titles is a bad idea. Wanna implement that? Do it point forward... But, I bet you could go back in time and strip Bernard Hinault of a few...Fausto Coppi admitted to using amphetamines.... Where do you stop?

Did Lance dope? of course he did. he just had the resources to hide it well. When you have testimony from 15 teammates that all essentially say the same thing, how can you deny?

then again, I thought Floyd Landis got screwed...

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08-24-2012, 06:18 PM
  #67
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The thing that irks me the most about him though, like I said, is him basically being the head of the little clycling dope mafia, and destroying the guys who spoke out on it.
How'd he destroy them? called them liars? Sued them?

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08-24-2012, 07:39 PM
  #68
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This is a joke after years of not being able to prove anything they wait until he is tried of having his name dragged through the mud and take away his titles.

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08-24-2012, 09:05 PM
  #69
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I don't blame him. Years and years of getting attacked because people believed it was too good to be true. He passed 100's and 100's of drug tests and yet the "witch hunt" continued. Had he continued fighting a non-winnable battle (By which I mean the USADA would continue refusing evidence and wouldn't stop until they got what they wanted whether it was right or not), he would continue having his image tainted and having to pay a ton of money for court and legal fees.

There is zero indisputable, physical evidence that Lance Armstrong doped. But that won't stop people from believing he did.

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08-24-2012, 09:40 PM
  #70
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When you have testimony from 15 teammates that all essentially say the same thing, how can you deny?
Well what physical evidence have they found to prove his guilt?

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08-24-2012, 09:44 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
He was one of the most vehement deniers of any drug use at all. He said, you can test me, I've been tested so many times before, I'm clean. And then he just gives up like this, when his legacy is potentially at stake? He won't fight back?

An innocent man would fight until the end. He clearly did it.
There are a few theories out there as to what happened

1) The cancer is back and does not want to spend his energy fighting
2) They got him redhanded ie--someone from his inner circle flipped on him
3) He is tired of the debate
4) He has made his money and does not care


But as you said--he made it clear with his statements if you want test me as much as you like. Either he thought he had real good drugs or he pulled the Ben Johnson rutine. I know here in Europe there was some speculation that US governing body has the smoking gun and have told him either do this or we will publically shame you. If the Tour de france strips him of his wins that could be interesting

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08-24-2012, 09:44 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by gojacketsgo61 View Post
I don't blame him. Years and years of getting attacked because people believed it was too good to be true. He passed 100's and 100's of drug tests and yet the "witch hunt" continued. Had he continued fighting a non-winnable battle (By which I mean the USADA would continue refusing evidence and wouldn't stop until they got what they wanted whether it was right or not), he would continue having his image tainted and having to pay a ton of money for court and legal fees.

There is zero indisputable, physical evidence that Lance Armstrong doped. But that won't stop people from believing he did.
10 eyewitness testimonies is pretty indisputable. And yeah, the motives of guys like Hamilton and Landis might be suspect, but Hincapie and Vaughters have *massive* credibility.

Basically pretty near everyone close to Armstrong at his peak is claiming that there was a massive organized doping plot spearheaded by Armstrong, and that they've physically seen Armstrong dope on multiple occasions.

And the 'never tested positive' thing is rubbish. He tested positive in 1999 and 2001 and the results were swept under the rug by the UCI, who decided that his story was too good for cycling to be ruined by facts.

In in any case they have his samples from 2009 and 2010 which show he blood doped as well.

And let's make something else clear - it isn't like he's being 'witch hunted' by some Euro organization, and the USADA didn't choose to go after an American hero for no reason. It's because he's guilty as sin, everyone involved in the sport knows it, and justice needed to be done.

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08-24-2012, 09:49 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
Lance would destroy the careers of people who dared to even imply he was cheating. He viciously protected copyright of his term "Livestrong". He was a bully.

Funny how the bully now has no more fight left in him. He did a lot of good for cancer research, and you can't deny that. I've read on a lot of forums today inspirational stories of people he has inspired. In that aspect, he was a great man. But he was also a vindictive and bitter individual who frequently denied allegations and destroyed reputations of those challenging his assertions. He made threats whenever people would even imply he was cheating, and they had to back off. For a guy who had so much zeal in destroying and verbally abusing those who dared to question his accomplishments, he feebly rode off into the sunset, today, his legacy in question.

ChChChChimo, it's well known everyone was cheating. But no one was as adamant at innocence as Armstrong. Nobody. That's why it's so surprising that he just gave up.
Really? No one? I suggest that you were not following cycling very closely if you think he was more adamant about his innocence then any other rider. Contador, Vinokourov, Valverde, just to name a few who were actually caught but still are adamant that they are innocent.

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Originally Posted by MS View Post
Anyone defending this guy is quite simply unfamiliar with the evidence.

He is 100%, undisputedly, one of the biggest cheats and biggest frauds in the history of sports. And got exactly what was coming to him, even if it was a decade late.
I love the hyperbole that gets used when discussing Armstrong, it cracks me up.

Quote:
=Epsilon]The Clinic (doping-related discussion board on the CyclingNews Forums) is going absolutely wild today.
That place is the biggest cesspool on the internet. I am surprised those guys are posting and not staring at the walls unsure of what to do with their lives.


Last edited by Live in the Now: 08-24-2012 at 11:59 PM. Reason: cool the messages
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08-24-2012, 09:52 PM
  #74
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I think the fact it was "his own people " who went after him caught some of us off guard.

A few years ago one of the Olympic US Athletes who passed all tests and that failed the first one after they tweeked the rules pointed out that when he got nailed they also had a lot of evidance of how long he had been doping for and found out that the drugm manufacturers keep detailed records and that all sales are tracked and they were able to give him not only the dates he received the drugs but how much he paid for them and how he paid for them.

For me, for him to give up now, tells me that he was doing sometrhing and thought he had all his bases covered

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08-24-2012, 11:21 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
I think the fact it was "his own people " who went after him caught some of us off guard.

A few years ago one of the Olympic US Athletes who passed all tests and that failed the first one after they tweeked the rules pointed out that when he got nailed they also had a lot of evidance of how long he had been doping for and found out that the drugm manufacturers keep detailed records and that all sales are tracked and they were able to give him not only the dates he received the drugs but how much he paid for them and how he paid for them.

For me, for him to give up now, tells me that he was doing sometrhing and thought he had all his bases covered
I absolutely agree with this. It seems awfully suspicious that he would give up now, after being the most zealous of all cyclists who defended themselves.

A lot of his teammates threw him under the bus, too. Very suspicious. If he hadn't appealed, I don't think he would have won. The USADA was prepared.

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