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Does Bobby Ryan's value = PK Subban's value ?

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Old
08-24-2012, 04:06 PM
  #201
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Half say Ryan >, the other half say Subban >, so yes =.

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08-24-2012, 04:10 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by AwesomePanthers View Post
Wow.. insult alert.. stop hurting my feelings

Whats up with the sensitive Habs fans? Ryan is a lot more valuable than Subban, I don't understand how thats even debatable.
You are correct. You do not "understand", and that is the problem. Most Habs fans agree that Ryan is worth a little more. What the difference is will vary depending upon team needs and desires.

Here is the problem. Ryan is a top 15 winger in the game. Subban is a top 20 defenceman in the league. There is a perception with some that a top defenceman is harder to develop than a top winger, so that increases Subban's value. On the other side, Ryan has proven to be a 30+ goal scoring power forward which is also incredibly valuable. Both have potential to improve. That is why value should be more subjective based on team needs. Most people will definitely concede Ryan is worth more in a trade, but will disagree on the value of the difference. Personally, I think Subban and a 2nd round pick or equivalent prospect/player should equal Ryan in terms of value. Others will have varying ideas. Habs fans get a little touchy with statements like Rayn is worth Subban, a 1st +++ or other such nonsense. It is an interesting debate, and some people get a bit touchy when they feel their star player is being slighted, but it is fun to watch and engage in, I must admit.

So, as a Habs fan, I can see Subban + a 2nd (or equivalent player/prospect) as being equal value to Ryan. I am not saying this is an actual trade either team's fans will accept, just what I feel is the appropriate value. I see attacks on the horizon, but I look forward to them.

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08-24-2012, 04:15 PM
  #203
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I think Subban is a rarer breed than Ryan. He has unique talents for a defenseman, he can basically do everything above average and do some things exceptionally. I would value having a player of his ilk over a guy like Ryan.

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08-24-2012, 04:15 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
The same guy who's one of only about 6 players that have scored 30+ goals each of the last 4 seasons, which coincidentally were his first 4 season in the NHL.

Players who have NOT scored 30+ in the last 4 seasons include guys like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Crosby, Eric Staal, Jeff Carter, and Rick Nash to name a few.

Of the top10 regular season teams last year, Ryan is a top line forward on all of them. Subban doesn't even make the top4 for some of them.
You were doing well until you posted that. Subban would be in every team's top 4, and many teams' top pairing. He is a top pairing guy, but there are some teams with more than one top pairing defender. I can not think of a single team that would not have Subban in its top 4. Not even the Rangers, and they are stacked!

Cool to know you think Ryan is more valuable than all of those other players, too. You do know there is more to a player's value than just scoring goals, AND that some of those other guys were injured over the last 4 years. Nice to know you think Ryan holds more value than Crosby though. It totally solidifies your credibility in this argument!

Always nice to have people come along and try to slam another team's player for the sake of being controversial and "kewl"... Which team are you a fan of, again??


Last edited by Drydenwasthebest: 08-24-2012 at 04:19 PM. Reason: Needed to add something...
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08-24-2012, 04:30 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
I think Subban is a rarer breed than Ryan. He has unique talents for a defenseman, he can basically do everything above average and do some things exceptionally. I would value having a player of his ilk over a guy like Ryan.
Name me one above average trait about Subban

His offense? No. His defense? No. Leadership? No. Physicality? No.

The only thing above average about Subban is his hype and his ego.

Ryan on the other hand can pass, score, hit, defend, everything you could ask for. It's not even close.

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08-24-2012, 04:32 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Face Of Bear View Post
Name me one above average trait about Subban

His offense? No. His defense? No. Leadership? No. Physicality? No.

The only thing above average about Subban is his hype and his ego.

Ryan on the other hand can pass, score, hit, defend, everything you could ask for. It's not even close.
Yeah, Subban is terrible at everything. It would help to watch him play.

I lost count of the number of posts in this thread that talk about PK and who are completely off base.

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08-24-2012, 04:42 PM
  #207
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Never said he is terrible at anything. Just said he isnt above average like the quoted poster said

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08-24-2012, 04:42 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
You are correct. You do not "understand", and that is the problem. Most Habs fans agree that Ryan is worth a little more. What the difference is will vary depending upon team needs and desires.

Here is the problem. Ryan is a top 15 winger in the game. Subban is a top 20 defenceman in the league. There is a perception with some that a top defenceman is harder to develop than a top winger, so that increases Subban's value. On the other side, Ryan has proven to be a 30+ goal scoring power forward which is also incredibly valuable. Both have potential to improve. That is why value should be more subjective based on team needs. Most people will definitely concede Ryan is worth more in a trade, but will disagree on the value of the difference. Personally, I think Subban and a 2nd round pick or equivalent prospect/player should equal Ryan in terms of value. Others will have varying ideas. Habs fans get a little touchy with statements like Rayn is worth Subban, a 1st +++ or other such nonsense. It is an interesting debate, and some people get a bit touchy when they feel their star player is being slighted, but it is fun to watch and engage in, I must admit.

So, as a Habs fan, I can see Subban + a 2nd (or equivalent player/prospect) as being equal value to Ryan. I am not saying this is an actual trade either team's fans will accept, just what I feel is the appropriate value. I see attacks on the horizon, but I look forward to them.
A top 20 defenceman?????

Even if you ignore his off ice issues... Subban is probably no better than a top 30-40 defenceman in the league... and then you've got those off ice issues which will cause many teams to simply say no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Face Of Bear View Post
Name me one above average trait about Subban

His offense? No. His defense? No. Leadership? No. Physicality? No.

The only thing above average about Subban is his hype and his ego.

Ryan on the other hand can pass, score, hit, defend, everything you could ask for. It's not even close.
Ego? Ability to get away with dirty and dangerous play?

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08-24-2012, 04:54 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
A top 20 defenceman?????

Even if you ignore his off ice issues... Subban is probably no better than a top 30-40 defenceman in the league... and then you've got those off ice issues which will cause many teams to simply say no.



Ego? Ability to get away with dirty and dangerous play?
You are right. A guy who has scored over 30+ points in both of his first two seasons in the NHL, has managed play over 24 minutes per game against the opposing teams' best lines, and is one of only 15 defenders who have shown the ability to play physical, score over 30 points, block shots, and agitate others in order to draw penalties is pretty useless. Who needs that. You are completely ri...sigh...clueless. I may as well argue with, well...


You are actually one of only 3 people in all the hundreds I either know or have seen post, that would argue Subban is not in the top 30! Wow, not even in the top 30. Seriously, you are either clueless (my best guess), have never seen him play (second best guess) or a ... nah, we will stick with option 1 and 2, it is far more obvious based on your supposed arguments.


Last edited by Drydenwasthebest: 08-24-2012 at 05:01 PM.
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08-24-2012, 04:58 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Face Of Bear View Post
Never said he is terrible at anything. Just said he isnt above average like the quoted poster said
The reason he is above average is because he does EVERYTHING WELL. He is not a one dimensional type of player, he is able to do multiple things well on the ice. As I have pointed out, he plays against the top lines of all opposing teams at ES and on the PK. He is one of 15 defenders who have posted over 30 points, 100 hits, 100 blocked shots; he is able to generate over 30 points of offence WHILE shutting down the opposing teams best lines; he is able to throw other teams' player off their game through agitating them out of their minds.

Those are the reasons that Subban is a top 20 defenceman in the NHL. He is not a healthy Mike Green on offence, not a Josh Gorges on defence, but he has solid aspects of them both that allows him to play both roles in a productive manner.

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08-24-2012, 05:03 PM
  #211
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PK Subban, with some above average skills for a defenseman, is not equal in value to the guy that was drafted after Sidney Crosby. [insert goal vs nashville here]

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08-24-2012, 05:08 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by spizzle420 View Post
PK Subban, with some above average skills for a defenseman, is not equal in value to the guy that was drafted after Sidney Crosby. [insert goal vs nashville here]
Fantastic argument. Bravo.

In the 2005 draft alone, these players picked after him all have either more value or it's at least arguable:

Carey Price
Anze Kopitar
James Neal
Paul Stastny
Kristopher Letang
Jonathan Quick

..and I could probably go on. Some of these guys were picked in the third round... yeah, all hail no.2 overall Bobby Ryan.


Last edited by poetryinmotion: 08-24-2012 at 05:14 PM.
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08-24-2012, 05:14 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
You are right. A guy who has scored over 30+ points in both of his first two seasons in the NHL, has managed play over 24 minutes per game against the opposing teams' best lines, and is one of only 15 defenders who have shown the ability to play physical, score over 30 points, block shots, and agitate others in order to draw penalties is pretty useless. Who needs that. You are completely ri...sigh...clueless. I may as well argue with, well...


You are actually one of only 3 people in all the hundreds I either know or have seen post, that would argue Subban is not in the top 30! Wow, not even in the top 30. Seriously, you are either clueless (my best guess), have never seen him play (second best guess) or a ... nah, we will stick with option 1 and 2, it is far more obvious based on your supposed arguments.
30 points is really nothing to write home about for a defenceman who gets top PP time. Heck, there were 43 defencemen in this league with 30 or more points, and 61 with 25 or more....nor is the ability to play 24 minutes against the other team's best when you were on the 3rd worst team in the league last year and had Carey Price in net.

Of course, he shows ability to be a shutdown guy, block shots, and play physical, but that doesn't mean he does it with anywhere near enough regularity to be considered a top defenceman in this league. He needs to learn basic defensive fundamentals and positioning.

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08-24-2012, 05:16 PM
  #214
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Ryan is clearly more valuable, although Subban is a very good all around defenseman.

If Subban were on my team, then I'd probably love him as well, but I'd never pay what it would cost for a guy who has those types of red flags. On the other hand, I would always inquire about a guy like Ryan. PK had better be damned good bc I could see his act wearing out eventually with coaches/teammates (I'm thinking along the lines of a less extreme Sean Avery)...

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08-24-2012, 07:44 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Barnaby View Post
Ryan is clearly more valuable, although Subban is a very good all around defenseman.

If Subban were on my team, then I'd probably love him as well, but I'd never pay what it would cost for a guy who has those types of red flags. On the other hand, I would always inquire about a guy like Ryan. PK had better be damned good bc I could see his act wearing out eventually with coaches/teammates (I'm thinking along the lines of a less extreme Sean Avery)...
Funny enough, Ryan is the one who has said "just trade me" and subban has never said anything of that nature.

I don't think Ryan is a locker room problem or has off ice issues AT ALL. However, one could easily make it out to be like he does. Same with Subban, it really is overstated and overanalyzed.

When you live in montreal and are a fan of the habs you realize how the media is. Subban needs to mature but he's far from a red flag or anything of that nature.

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08-25-2012, 02:13 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
The reason he is above average is because he does EVERYTHING WELL. He is not a one dimensional type of player, he is able to do multiple things well on the ice. As I have pointed out, he plays against the top lines of all opposing teams at ES and on the PK. He is one of 15 defenders who have posted over 30 points, 100 hits, 100 blocked shots; he is able to generate over 30 points of offence WHILE shutting down the opposing teams best lines; he is able to throw other teams' player off their game through agitating them out of their minds.

Those are the reasons that Subban is a top 20 defenceman in the NHL. He is not a healthy Mike Green on offence, not a Josh Gorges on defence, but he has solid aspects of them both that allows him to play both roles in a productive manner.
Jeeze, you must think Phaneuf is a top 15 defender too, because he does all those things and better.

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08-25-2012, 02:28 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Face Of Bear View Post
Jeeze, you must think Phaneuf is a top 15 defender too, because he does all those things and better.
I'd say Phaneuf and Subban have similar impacts all things considered.

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08-25-2012, 02:31 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I'd say Phaneuf and Subban have similar impacts all things considered.
Not many people are drooling over Phaneuf these days, and his numbers are significantly better then Subbans in basically every category.

I agree they are similar style defensemen though, but I dont think you can call Subban top 20 without calling Phaneuf top 10. Which is obviously not the case.

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08-25-2012, 02:32 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Face Of Bear View Post
Not many people are drooling over Phaneuf these days, and his numbers are significantly better then Subbans in basically every category.

I agree they are similar style defensemen though, but I dont think you can call Subban top 20 without calling Phaneuf top 10. Which is obviously not the case.
I think subban is top 25-30 and can be top 15-20 as soon as next year.

HF voting has Phaneuf at 25 and subban at 28. It's not that far off. Top 20 is a reach for sure but it's not as extreme as you make it sound. I don't think Subban being say 20th would make phaneuf 10th. I think whatever subban is, Phaneuf is a few spots ahead at this point.

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08-25-2012, 02:45 AM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Sean Garrity View Post
In his first 2 full seasons the old timer in front of him on the PP units missed a combined 45 games, and that bumped Ryan up to full time PP duties for those games. In the past 2 seasons, where his PP numbers have been cut by more than 50%, the old timer has only missed 9 games. That is an extra ~15 goals you can allocate to his 65 goals the past 2 seasons however you choose. When he gets Perry, Getzlaf and Selanne PP time, which is an increase of over 1 minute/game of PP time, he will score 40 goals. It is simple math really.




Do you have a job? All the man wants is job security with his current employer at his current location, and surely you should be able to understand that.
I can understand that , but he has a contract that is guaranteed . That is his security . He is not in the NFL where he can just be cut . As for location nothing in this world is 100% . Companies move ,get bought out ,cut backs and so on . Also almost every player goes threw rumours in their careers . I am an Oiler fan , On HF, fans of other teams always get on Oilers fan for having Hemsky,s names in trades . The media does it to , have you ever heard Hemsky go on about it ? He wants to be in Edmonton yet there is no crying about it

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08-25-2012, 02:51 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I think subban is top 25-30 and can be top 15-20 as soon as next year.

HF voting has Phaneuf at 25 and subban at 28. It's not that far off. Top 20 is a reach for sure but it's not as extreme as you make it sound. I don't think Subban being say 20th would make phaneuf 10th. I think whatever subban is, Phaneuf is a few spots ahead at this point.
I honestly dont see what makes Subban top 30 right now. He is an "offensive" defenseman who hasnt put up offensive numbers.... he is "alright-decent" defensivly (please dont try to make him seem more then that), and his hits/blocked shots and all that jazz are just average, nothing special.

To look at him and Phaneuf side by side, here:

Points: Phaneuf, 44, Subban 36
Hits: Phaneuf, 214, Subban, 105
Blocked shots: Phaneuf, 127, Subban, 113
Give aways: Phaneuf, 76, Subban, 88
Take aways: Phaneuf, 33, Subban 28
+/-: Phaneuf -10, Subban +9
TOI/game: PHaneuf, 25:17, Subban, 24:18

The only thing Subban has on him is +/- which can easily be contributed to the fact that Montreal actually has a goalie that can stop a puck. Looking at that, if Phaneuf is actually #25 per votes, then I cant see how Subban makes the top 30. The people that regard him so highly are the ones that are looking at potential, not what he has shown to date.

In his young NHL career he has been average. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not deserving of all the hype he's had. To get back on topic... Ryans career to date has not been average. He has been scoring goals more consistently then almost everyone in the league, while being a physical and 2-way player. Subban is not worth anything close to Ryan right now, and he will have to do some major improvements in the future to get to that point.

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08-25-2012, 06:46 AM
  #222
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Subban is a lot better than Phaneuf defensively who is a trainwreck in his own zone, they might play the same physical brand of hockey but the similarities stop there. PK's actually a lot better defensively than he is offensively but people don't know this, he drives possession when he's on the ice. A much better comparison would be Weber, not Phaneuf.

Offensively he starts slow every year and then tears it up in the second half, all he needs is to be consistent and you will see him break out to 40-50 points, and once he starts doing that regularly, I'd say he would easily be a top 10 defenseman in the league and possibly challenge for a Norris or two.

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08-25-2012, 07:16 AM
  #223
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right now Ryan>Subban in terms of value easily.

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08-25-2012, 12:17 PM
  #224
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Sorry, a little off topic from the OP but I was reading comments on Hockey Inside/Out and one post suggested that the Canadiens should trade P.K. Subban for Del Zotto and Kreider. It's very interesting.. Im not supporting this idea but is the value there in that proposal???

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08-25-2012, 02:33 PM
  #225
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Sorry, a little off topic from the OP but I was reading comments on Hockey Inside/Out and one post suggested that the Canadiens should trade P.K. Subban for Del Zotto and Kreider. It's very interesting.. Im not supporting this idea but is the value there in that proposal???
Not at all, Del Zotto is a PMD specialist which we have through the nose and Kreider is severely overhyped.

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