A 5 min PK instead of a 2 min PP is kind of a game changer ...
I like the idea of 2 for the dive plus a short misconduct of some kind. Being shorthanded for two minutes as well as losing the offender for an extra 2-5 should get the point across. EDIT: The more I think about this the more I like it. A diver gets a harsh enough penalty to make it not worth it, and those who embellish (perhaps seeing matching penalties with better players as a win) will be reasonably deterred by the added on misconduct.
I never understood the matching penalty call. If it was a dive than the other player never committed a penalty in the first place.
I see this sentiment a lot, and I don't understand it. Someone else here said that it happens, but is very rare. Actually, I think it's the opposite.
The "high stick that never actually makes contact but the guy flings his head back and acts like he was shot" is dramatic, and sticks in your mind, but is relatively rare. The slash that is light but does make contact and the guy acts like a guillotine came down on him is a lot more common.
That's why the actual penalty is called Diving/Embellishment. Embellishment means there was a penalty but the "victim" oversold it. I see that a lot more than the "no penalty ever happened" pure dive.
And to Doji, I disagree completely about the Salo incident. There was no dive or embellishment there at all.
The problem is that it's very hard on the ice, during the action to determine if a play is embellishment or not. Heck we have 100 people here who after viewing a play close up in high def, slo mo, multiple xs still can't agree on what happened.
The solution: keep the in game penalty as is. Try to call it more but don't go crazy. I don't want to see hooks, holds, slashes and trips NOT called because of some crackdown on embellishment. BUT the league should review plays after the fact and fine and suspend offenders.
Add to that that we've actually seen some players get hurt embellishing (see Sami Salo last year against Marchand), and there's really no justification for it. This needs to be taken out of the league.
He suffered a concussion on the play, and there was absolutely no embellishment, I dislike the Nucks like everyone here, see any/every Kesler/Sedin/Burrows vid for true examples of embellishment/embarrassment
He suffered a concussion on the play, and there was absolutely no embellishment, I dislike the Nucks like everyone here, see any/every Kesler/Sedin/Burrows vid for true examples of embellishment/embarrassment
We need signs here "don't feed the dojii"
I don't know how you embellish getting taken out at the knees...unless of course its either a. never happened to you b. you listened to it on the radio or c. all of the above
The problem is that it's very hard on the ice, during the action to determine if a play is embellishment or not. Heck we have 100 people here who after viewing a play close up in high def, slo mo, multiple xs still can't agree on what happened.
The solution: keep the in game penalty as is. Try to call it more but don't go crazy. I don't want to see hooks, holds, slashes and trips NOT called because of some crackdown on embellishment. BUT the league should review plays after the fact and fine and suspend offenders.
By adding another option for the refs to call, you at least give them an extra tool to work with. They don't have to call the embellishment if they aren't certain that it's warranted, but the knowledge that the ref can call it would help as a deterrent to your Subban/Burrows types.
I don't know how you embellish getting taken out at the knees...unless of course its either a. never happened to you b. you listened to it on the radio or c. all of the above
Haha, poor Dojji, one of my favourite posters, takes a lickin and keeps on tickin
My first reaction to the hit was like everyone else`s, one of those "yeah baby" kind of reactions, then, as the days went on, and I kept seeing the hit, watching it being constantly played on the tube, I said to myself, if the jersey`s were reversed, and this was a Bruin who took that "hit", and whether he was concussed or not, I`d be livid and screaming for a 20 game suspension.
I like Marchand, like him alot, when he walks that line but doesn`t cross it, that play was cheap, it was calculated (please nobody give me the "he was defending himself BS"), he could have completely avoided any and all contact, but he stood there, bent down, and sent Sami flying to the quiet room and beyond
At the end of the day folks, we all know what happens after the usual pre season talk has been given about the refs "cracking down" on things, initially, the refs overdue it, call everything, then that subsides to a reasonable level, then the calls disappear totally, who we kiddin
The problem is that it's very hard on the ice, during the action to determine if a play is embellishment or not. Heck we have 100 people here who after viewing a play close up in high def, slo mo, multiple xs still can't agree on what happened.
The solution: keep the in game penalty as is. Try to call it more but don't go crazy. I don't want to see hooks, holds, slashes and trips NOT called because of some crackdown on embellishment. BUT the league should review plays after the fact and fine and suspend offenders.
I agree, but I'll go you one better. I think you'd see a decrease in the embellishing of calls when the refs actually call the rulebook. One of the reasons embellishing has gotten so bad the last couple of seasons is that it seems it's sometimes the only way to actually get a penalty to be called. If the refs would call the penalties when they happen, and I'm talking obvious ones too, then some of the embellishing would go away. And calling the rulebook includes calling the unsportsmanlike for embellishing. If they called that when it happened too, then it would also decrease.
I guess what I'm saying is that it starts with the refs, not some list.
If it's a legitimate penalty that should be called and a guy wants to act like a jackwagon and flop around, then more power to him. Have fun looking like an *******, it was going to be called anyways and has no real effect on the outcome of the game.
If someone flops and gets a call that SHOULDN'T have been called? That has an impact on the outcome of the game, and THAT I care about.
I agree 100%.
I was just responding to someone who said that if there's a dive, there's no way there could also have been an original penalty in the first place.
In other words, If I'm hooked, the guy should get called, but if I'm hooked and I flop around like a Ribiero out of water, both calls are legitimate.
By adding another option for the refs to call, you at least give them an extra tool to work with. They don't have to call the embellishment if they aren't certain that it's warranted, but the knowledge that the ref can call it would help as a deterrent to your Subban/Burrows types.
I'm not sure I understand. There already is a penalty for embellishment, what option are you asking them to add?
You can argue it should be 5:00 (not sure I agree with that) or a blatant one should result in ejection (not a bad idea), or ask for fines or suspensions after the fact (fine with me), but the problem still comes down to calling it on the ice.
I'm not sure where refs should err when it comes to this. They see a stick lifted high in a motion near a guy's face and they see the guy react to it. Should they err on letting it go? Should they err on calling the embellishment if there's no blood? No matter what you are going to have blown calls. Call embellishment often and you'll see guys hitting each other with sticks in the face and not getting called (or hooking on scoring opportunities etc). Don't call it and you'll see guys faking it begging for pp's. On ice, live speed, moving players, moving refs, different angles.... there are going to be mistakes.
I'd rather err on the side of letting skilled players play with skill. I'd rather deter guys DURING THE GAME from hooking, slashing, highsticking because those are going to effect scoring chances, which the game needs. Does it mean sometimes a team will benefit from a pp it didn't deserve? Yup.
That's why AFTER the fact, the league reviews the plays and hammers the divers with fines and suspensions. It may not change that 1 pp a game that shouldn't have been called but if serious enough it will deter the guy from doing it again.
Glad it's being addressed, but a list isn't severe enough, IMO.
Solution: Make diving a 5 minute major.
No player is going to risk a 5 minute major for a 2 minute PP. No coach is going to want to be put in that situation either. Even if they continue to call diving as infrequently as they do, the threat of a major penalty should be severe enough to make players think twice.
The problem won't be solved until the punishment is harsher than the reward.
This X 100. When I brought this up regarding how this was ruining the sport I was mocked. Apparently the players agree with me. It's turning Hockey into Soccer. Nobody here wants a playoff series decided by better acting skills. The Habs and Canucks made an art-form out of this.
There should also be a list and repeat offenders need to be tracked. Once it hits a threshold suspensions need to enter the picture.
I'm not sure I understand. There already is a penalty for embellishment, what option are you asking them to add?
You can argue it should be 5:00 (not sure I agree with that) or a blatant one should result in ejection (not a bad idea), or ask for fines or suspensions after the fact (fine with me), but the problem still comes down to calling it on the ice.
I'm not sure where refs should err when it comes to this. They see a stick lifted high in a motion near a guy's face and they see the guy react to it. Should they err on letting it go? Should they err on calling the embellishment if there's no blood? No matter what you are going to have blown calls. Call embellishment often and you'll see guys hitting each other with sticks in the face and not getting called (or hooking on scoring opportunities etc). Don't call it and you'll see guys faking it begging for pp's. On ice, live speed, moving players, moving refs, different angles.... there are going to be mistakes.
I'd rather err on the side of letting skilled players play with skill. I'd rather deter guys DURING THE GAME from hooking, slashing, highsticking because those are going to effect scoring chances, which the game needs. Does it mean sometimes a team will benefit from a pp it didn't deserve? Yup.
That's why AFTER the fact, the league reviews the plays and hammers the divers with fines and suspensions. It may not change that 1 pp a game that shouldn't have been called but if serious enough it will deter the guy from doing it again.
They players are trained now on reacting to stuff that is not happening, just to draw a penalty. This is wrong and hurts the integrity of the sport (look at what happened to Bergy in the playoffs when his stick was high but didn't touch the guy and he dropped like he was shot.) This needs to be stopped. Post game reviews need to take place and give the team a penalty to start the next game if you have to. Whatever it takes. Montreal would not have won a single game in that series without their PP and diving to generate PP attempts. It almost cost the Bruins the Cup in 2 series.
Bruins fan bias aside- it's slowly ruining the game.
I'm not sure I understand. There already is a penalty for embellishment, what option are you asking them to add?
You can argue it should be 5:00 (not sure I agree with that) or a blatant one should result in ejection (not a bad idea), or ask for fines or suspensions after the fact (fine with me), but the problem still comes down to calling it on the ice.
I'm not sure where refs should err when it comes to this. They see a stick lifted high in a motion near a guy's face and they see the guy react to it. Should they err on letting it go? Should they err on calling the embellishment if there's no blood? No matter what you are going to have blown calls. Call embellishment often and you'll see guys hitting each other with sticks in the face and not getting called (or hooking on scoring opportunities etc). Don't call it and you'll see guys faking it begging for pp's. On ice, live speed, moving players, moving refs, different angles.... there are going to be mistakes.
I'd rather err on the side of letting skilled players play with skill. I'd rather deter guys DURING THE GAME from hooking, slashing, highsticking because those are going to effect scoring chances, which the game needs. Does it mean sometimes a team will benefit from a pp it didn't deserve? Yup.
That's why AFTER the fact, the league reviews the plays and hammers the divers with fines and suspensions. It may not change that 1 pp a game that shouldn't have been called but if serious enough it will deter the guy from doing it again.
Most refs have played the game at some point, doc. When a player is somehow thrown backwards, as if shot by Lee Harvey jr. from a skybox, and on a simple stick lift on a contested puck. Yeah, to call that a penalty, and during game 7, is an absolute joke. Plekancs did exactly that, and if I remember correctly, they converted.
What I see a lot of is ; the closest ref to the play seeing a dive, shaking head, letting play continue, only to have a trailing ref further from the play blow it down, and call a penalty.
As it is now, the call by the ref who was duped, is going to stand, and no matter how stupid. The ref who saw it as a dive is simply going to back up the ref who called a penalty. The exact opposite has to happen here. Team that caused the stoppage via diving simply receives a penalty.
Embellishing injuries??? Then playing the PP? 5 minute major followed by water boarding.
A 5 min PK instead of a 2 min PP is kind of a game changer ...
Call diving a 2+10 and get them out of the game. Second time a player gets that called against him, suspend him for a game. Third time, two games. And so on.
