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Shane Doan II... Doan you forget about me....

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Old
08-24-2012, 03:26 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
My opinion on Doan hasn't changed -- nice player, would be good to have at the right price. I don't view the reported $7.5M/4yr deal as the right price.
my thoughts as well

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08-24-2012, 03:32 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
When has Doan ever led a domino effect that turned a team into a winner?
anything i say will just be countered with "Dave Tippett... system... etc"

so i'll pass...

i think the real issue... is having players to emulate.

I'd rather have players emulate Shane Doan, as the highest paid player on the team, wearing a letter, and playing every shift like it's his last... over Thomas Vanek....

it still amazes me that Sabres fans don't get what made the 05-07 teams so good... it wasn't the talent of the players.

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08-24-2012, 03:33 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Just like if the Sabres won it would be Miller, Vanek, and Pominville. This team needs a player like Doan in the worst way.
I don't believe they will win with those guys pulling the wagon.

I don't believe Doan has enough left in the tank to contribute enough to put this crew over the top.

I don't believe that Doan is so great of a mentor for the kids that he's worth overpaying a ton for.

If Doan would sign for 3yrs/$4.5M per, it would be a more interesting conversation for me. But, that's not the contract the Sabres have offered.

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08-24-2012, 03:34 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
anything i say will just be countered with "Dave Tippett... system... etc"

so i'll pass...
So it takes over a decade for the Shane Doan domino effect to yield results?

Awesome!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i think the real issue... is having players to emulate.

I'd rather have players emulate Shane Doan, as the highest paid player on the team, wearing a letter, and playing every shift like it's his last... over Thomas Vanek....

it still amazes me that Sabres fans don't get what made the 05-07 teams so good... it wasn't the talent of the players.
I don't see Doan having that effect. At all.

The Yotes have had troubles developing guys when Doan has been mentoring them over the years.

Turris is just the latest example.

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08-24-2012, 03:35 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
I don't believe they will win with those guys pulling the wagon.

I don't believe Doan has enough left in the tank to contribute enough to put this crew over the top.

I don't believe that Doan is so great of a mentor for the kids that he's worth overpaying a ton for.

If Doan would sign for 3yrs/$4.5M per, it would be a more interesting conversation for me. But, that's not the contract the Sabres have offered.
Which is the main problem. Considering those guys will more than likely be around for some/most of Doan's 4 year contract, him signing might not make a difference either way.

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08-24-2012, 03:45 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
I don't believe they will win with those guys pulling the wagon.

I don't believe Doan has enough left in the tank to contribute enough to put this crew over the top.

I don't believe that Doan is so great of a mentor for the kids that he's worth overpaying a ton for.

If Doan would sign for 3yrs/$4.5M per, it would be a more interesting conversation for me. But, that's not the contract the Sabres have offered.
If Vanek, Miller, and Poms arent good enough then your in rebuild mode.

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08-24-2012, 04:00 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
I don't believe they will win with those guys pulling the wagon.
Agreed (which means you don't expect them to be a contender over the next 2 years). So we should be focused on building a contender "post rochester core"

It also insinuates that we should let those guys go when their contract expires... and doing so would negate any negative impact Doan's contract had on the roster, as letting those guys go would indicate a transitioning to a new core and a few years away from contending

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I don't believe Doan has enough left in the tank to contribute enough to put this crew over the top.
again, we Agree

Quote:
I don't believe that Doan is so great of a mentor for the kids that he's worth overpaying a ton for.
I believe he would be a good mentor


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
So it takes over a decade for the Shane Doan domino effect to yield results?

Awesome!



I don't see Doan having that effect. At all.

The Yotes have had troubles developing guys when Doan has been mentoring them over the years.

Turris is just the latest example.
So you believe Turris lack of development is related to Doan... and not Turris?

You either value character, leadership, lead by example, etc types... or you don't

The Sabres have lacked it for 5 years...

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08-24-2012, 04:08 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
I think it all matters how well Doan handles being 36. I mean Teppo Numminen was huge for us at age 37 and 38, and RUff used him on the PP and PK units.
By all accounts from the Phoenix media, Doan has consistently trained and taken care of his body to stay in shape from year to year. All one has to do is look at similar players with the same kind of conditioning habits that are the same age or older (i.e. Selanne, Recchi) and have been effective contributors and some of the fears of Doan being a decrepit, overpaid 4th liner 1 year into the contract start to go away IMO.

I'm still on the fence on the subject - there are obviously pros and cons to him signing with Buffalo.

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08-24-2012, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
So it takes over a decade for the Shane Doan domino effect to yield results?

Awesome!





I don't see Doan having that effect. At all.

The Yotes have had troubles developing guys when Doan has been mentoring them over the years.

Turris is just the latest example.
Since when is it only one person's responsibility, Doan's or Tippett's, for the team to be successful? I doubt Mike Babcock, Dave Tippett or whatever coach you hold in the highest esteem would have made the Blue Jackets a playoff team. At the same rate, just because Rick Nash, for example was part of a horrific team doesn't make him a bad player or bad leader. There is only so much you can do at times.

I do not put the full blame of the Coyotes prior failure on Doan's shoulder's just because he was the captain. I also don't credit their rise to significance solely to Dave Tippett. Evaluate Doan idividually and you'll find a player that can provide offense, defense and leadership. There is of course a debate as to how much of each he will/does contribute, but team success is not a great indicator. Using a team's record and playoff success to evaluate a player is possibly worse than +/-.

IMO, this team needs a player like Doan. Someone who can contribute at both ends and be a positive veteran influence. The price is more than I'd like at his advanced age, but we can make room under the cap and have very few ways to improve the team this severely without giving up valuable assets in return.

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08-24-2012, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
By all accounts from the Phoenix media, Doan has consistently trained and taken care of his body to stay in shape from year to year. All one has to do is look at similar players with the same kind of conditioning habits that are the same age or older (i.e. Selanne, Recchi) and have been effective contributors and some of the fears of Doan being a decrepit, overpaid 4th liner 1 year into the contract start to go away IMO.

I'm still on the fence on the subject - there are obviously pros and cons to him signing with Buffalo.
I'm in... because I don't think the cap space matters much.

Year 1 : Doesn't matter we have the space
Year 2 : It's tight
Year 3 : Bye to atleast 2 of the 3 remaining rochester core
Year 4 : CONTENDER...Plenty of cap space, potential Andreychuk, Recchi, Weight, Brindamour affect... "win one for the old guy"

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08-24-2012, 04:43 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
When has Doan ever led a domino effect that turned a team into a winner?
I have to agree with Jame. Sometimes there's a time/place/fit for a player. Much like Drury was an MVP with Buffalo before disappearing on the Rags. Doan just seems like the type of veteran who could have a real impact on the roster in the vein of a Cory Stillman or Ray Whitney.

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08-24-2012, 05:13 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I'm in... because I don't think the cap space matters much.

Year 1 : Doesn't matter we have the space
Year 2 : It's tight
Year 3 : Bye to atleast 2 of the 3 remaining rochester core, ERGO
Year 4 : Rebuild
Fixed.

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08-24-2012, 05:16 PM
  #38
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Fixed.
What do you think Foligno/Ennis/Hodgson/Girgs/Grigs/Armia/Myers/Pysyk is the beginning of?

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08-24-2012, 05:26 PM
  #39
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What do you think Foligno/Ennis/Hodgson/Girgs/Grigs/Armia/Myers/Pysyk is the beginning of?
Well, half of them haven't made the NHL, so I think they're the beginning of nothing right now.

If Darcy Regier is making his team plan, handing out contracts and such, on the assumption that a group of prospects, half of whom haven't played in the NHL and the other half of whom haven't proven much of anything yet, are going to turn into such gamechangers that he can plan his budget around letting go of his most established stars within two years, he's an idiot.

Ask yourself this: for 7.5 million dollars in two years, who do you think you'd be better off with, a 38 year old Shane Doan, or a 30 year old Thomas Vanek? Hell, you can have Vanek for less if you're proactive with him. How people are justifying signing Doan because we'll just go all Briere-Drury with our best players ina couple years is stupefying. You never let your best players walk for nothing, unless you're trying to tank. At least sign them and then trade them if they're replaceable for cheaper. That way at least you don't get nothing for assets that you spent a decade trying to build. And my bet is, no, Armia is not going to be better than Thomas Vanek in two years. Vanek will still be the #1 LW on this team, Pommers will still be our best RW. If you keep them and let kids develop around them and fill out 4 scoring lines, then maybe you're a contender (or at least close, close enough that you could spend that Doan money on somebody to push you over the top). If you let him walk and throw a bunch of 20 year olds into our top 6, with Shane ****ing Doan riding the third line, you're rebuilding.


Last edited by haseoke39: 08-24-2012 at 05:34 PM.
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08-24-2012, 05:34 PM
  #40
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Fixed.
not really... see, i think the rebuild started already.

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08-24-2012, 05:38 PM
  #41
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not really... see, i think the rebuild started already.
Haven't the Bills taught you? You can start rebuilds indefinitely!

Seriously, suppose Vanek and Pommer walk. Your plan for cup contention is filling the top 6 with 20 year old kids who currently aren't in the NHL, a couple who are and sure aint Sidney Crosby, and Shane Doan on the third line.

Unless the brilliant plan is to let Vanek and Pommer walk only to try and sign back some different scorers to fill out the top 6. In which case, good luck. You're going to be paying 7.5M for the next 50 point guy, if he'll even consider coming after watching you let your best forwards walk.

How this is not ****ing gospel (especially in Buffalo) is beyond me: you never let your best players walk away for nothing and expect to get better. Not unless Vanek and Pommer are some kind of cancer we have to kill.

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08-24-2012, 05:47 PM
  #42
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Well, half of them haven't made the NHL, so I think they're the beginning of nothing right now.

If Darcy Regier is making his team plan, handing out contracts and such, on the assumption that a group of prospects, half of whom haven't played in the NHL and the other half of whom haven't proven much of anything yet, are going to turn into such gamechangers that he can plan his budget around letting go of his most established stars within two years, he's an idiot.

Ask yourself this: for 7.5 million dollars in two years, who do you think you'd be better off with, a 38 year old Shane Doan, or a 30 year old Thomas Vanek? Hell, you can have Vanek for less if you're proactive with him. How people are justifying signing Doan because we'll just go all Briere-Drury with our best players ina couple years is stupefying. You never let your best players walk for nothing, unless you're trying to tank. At least sign them and then trade them if they're replaceable for cheaper. That way at least you don't get nothing for assets that you spent a decade trying to build. And my bet is, no, Armia is not going to be better than Thomas Vanek in two years. Vanek will still be the #1 LW on this team, Pommers will still be our best RW. If you keep them and let kids develop around them and fill out 4 scoring lines, then maybe you're a contender (or at least close, close enough that you could spend that Doan money on somebody to push you over the top). If you let him walk and throw a bunch of 20 year olds into our top 6, with Shane ****ing Doan riding the third line, you're rebuilding.
you just happen to be someone who delusionally believes in players who have failed for so long.

I think 30 yr old vanek will be as effective as a guy near retirement. vanek doesn't keep himself in good shape... the wear on his body will show very quickly... his skating is garbage, and he already has a history of getting dinged up and losing his effectiveness late in seasons

re-signing vanek is not an option

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08-24-2012, 05:49 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Haven't the Bills taught you? You can start rebuilds indefinitely!

Seriously, suppose Vanek and Pommer walk. Your plan for cup contention is filling the top 6 with 20 year old kids who currently aren't in the NHL, a couple who are and sure aint Sidney Crosby, and Shane Doan on the third line.

Unless the brilliant plan is to let Vanek and Pommer walk only to try and sign back some different scorers to fill out the top 6. In which case, good luck. You're going to be paying 7.5M for the next 50 point guy, if he'll even consider coming after watching you let your best forwards walk.

How this is not ****ing gospel (especially in Buffalo) is beyond me: you never let your best players walk away for nothing and expect to get better. Not unless Vanek and Pommer are some kind of cancer we have to kill.
yes, i think it's possible to develop a contender via youth.. and not just hang on to players indefinitely

you clearly dont get it... since you think there is a correlation between letting briere/drury go... and potentially letting 2 guys who have led us nowhere go... good comparison

my plan for cup contention is all about developing : grigs, girgs, ennis, armia, foligno, myers, sekera, pysyk, mcnabb... and putting the best possible players around them over the next 2-3 years, so that by year 4 they are ready to lead the team... bringing in doan assists that goal imo

vanek doesn't even enter the picture in terms of a player on the team imo... he's a trade asset to get more pieces to assist the development of the aforementioned... that's his value to building a contender

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08-24-2012, 06:04 PM
  #44
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I also don't see it hindering the franchise in keeping their own, as long as they rightfully let Vanek walk in 2 years.

The biggest risk the Sabres face is the youth movement not developing properly... anything that aids that development is a good move IMO.

dont over think it


Yeah the Sabres should just let one of the best goal scorers in the league walk for nothing and replace him with a better player who will be begging to sign in Buffalo right?

Not re-signing Vanek will hold this franchise back, unless your banking on Matt Ellis to replace a consistent 30-30 winger.

Who's next on the list after Vanek? First it was Roy, I'm sure Ennis is next

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08-24-2012, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I'm in... because I don't think the cap space matters much.

Year 1 : Doesn't matter we have the space
Year 2 : It's tight
Year 3 : Bye to atleast 2 of the 3 remaining rochester core
Year 4 : CONTENDER...Plenty of cap space, potential Andreychuk, Recchi, Weight, Brindamour affect... "win one for the old guy"
Knowing your views of Ruff, is that 4 year forecast predicted with him as coach each year?

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I think 30 yr old vanek will be as effective as a guy near retirement. vanek doesn't keep himself in good shape... the wear on his body will show very quickly... his skating is garbage, and he already has a history of getting dinged up and losing his effectiveness late in seasons
One of the greatest myths being perpetuated without justification on this board.....

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08-24-2012, 06:06 PM
  #46
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yes, i think it's possible to develop a contender via youth.. and not just hang on to players indefinitely

you clearly dont get it... since you think there is a correlation between letting briere/drury go... and potentially letting 2 guys who have led us nowhere go... good comparison

my plan for cup contention is all about developing : grigs, girgs, ennis, armia, foligno, myers, sekera, pysyk, mcnabb... and putting the best possible players around them over the next 2-3 years, so that by year 4 they are ready to lead the team... bringing in doan assists that goal imo

vanek doesn't even enter the picture in terms of a player on the team imo... he's a trade asset to get more pieces to assist the development of the aforementioned... that's his value to building a contender
So your plan is:

1. Turn over the keys to kids who've never played int he NHL
2. Trade your current best forwards (for what? Presumably for something much cheaper than them, since you describe letting them go as a salary problem fix. Presumably not top 6 players, I have to assume, or else you're just moving laterally.)
3. Let Shane Doan be the mentor that turns Grigorenko, Girgensons, Armia etc into a cup winning core at age 20.

Confirm or deny this, and try to talk substance and not tone.

If this is true, why not start moving Vanek and Pommer now, while their value is high? And what would you look for in return for them that would, in your mind, be the complementary pieces that would allow our prospects to form a cup-winning core?

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08-24-2012, 06:10 PM
  #47
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Yeah the Sabres should just let one of the best goal scorers in the league walk for nothing and replace him with a better player who will be begging to sign in Buffalo right?

Not re-signing Vanek will hold this franchise back, unless your banking on Matt Ellis to replace a consistent 30-30 winger.

Who's next on the list after Vanek? First it was Roy, I'm sure Ennis is next
ruff is next

re-signing talent doesn't make you a contender... ask calgary

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08-24-2012, 06:17 PM
  #48
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So your plan is:

1. Turn over the keys to kids who've never played int he NHL
2. Trade your current best forwards (for what? Presumably for something much cheaper than them, since you describe letting them go as a salary problem fix. Presumably not top 6 players, I have to assume, or else you're just moving laterally.)
3. Let Shane Doan be the mentor that turns Grigorenko, Girgensons, Armia etc into a cup winning core at age 20.

Confirm or deny this, and try to talk substance and not tone.

If this is true, why not start moving Vanek and Pommer now, while their value is high? And what would you look for in return for them that would, in your mind, be the complementary pieces that would allow our prospects to form a cup-winning core?
cup CONTENDING core... in 2016

Myers 26
Hodgson 26
Ennis 26
McNabb 25
Foligno 25
Pysyk 24
Armia 23
Grigs 22
Girgs 22

not all of that talent will work out...
do you believe that they wont balance the core out with veteran talent?

i would let vanek walk (prefer trade at 2014 deadline) because i believe the talent in the pipe will be showing promise by then...

i cant confirm or deny the way you selectively try to frame my opinion... an opinion that you dont seem to grasp

i was all for moving ALL of the rochester core 2 years ago, and last year... when it was clear that this core was never going to contend... but at this point, we've added hodgson, girgs, and grigs... to ennis, foligno, and mcnabb... id rather see those guys win some with some decent talent around them.. and get that experience.

its a phased rebuild


Last edited by Jame: 08-24-2012 at 06:23 PM.
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08-24-2012, 06:22 PM
  #49
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ruff is next

re-signing talent doesn't make you a contender... ask calgary
I mean, this is what I don't get. Vanek and Pommer don't carry teams on their backs through the playoffs. But they're high talent players who, on a contender, wouldn't have to. You surround them with more talent. If the prospects have it in them, they can make a nice supporting cast that spreads the scoring out. But it's wildly, blindly optimistic to assume that the prospects are going to - in two years time! - be so much better than our current best forwards that the best thing they can do is get out of the way and let the opposition train their top pairing against the kids.

I mean, I don't even know how to argue with that. It's nonsense. Why don't we let everybody walk and just assume the whole group down in Rochester, plus Shane Doan, would turn into cup winners. It makes as much sense.

I definitely grasp your opinion. I think the easiest thing to do is to bank on promising kids that haven't let you down yet. But your argument is just to jettison talent for the sake of jettisoning talent. Then plug a few scrappy veterans around whatever's left. If I was so confident that our fresh draft picks would be cup contenders within two years, ****, I'd never worry about anything with this team.

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08-24-2012, 06:40 PM
  #50
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Knowing your views of Ruff, is that 4 year forecast predicted with him as coach each year?



One of the greatest myths being perpetuated without justification on this board.....
His skating is good at best, it's very average compared to the players that put up similar point totals.

I agree with Jame that Vanek would be a good asset to trade, he would bring back a solid return and if the young pieces can replace Vanek's scoring, which let's be honest is 60-70 points these days, then there's no problem.

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