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Old
08-25-2012, 10:52 AM
  #26
kingdok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victor View Post
FYI, Petry is arguably Edmonton's best defenseman.

Most minutes, hard minutes with Smid (2nd highest QoC next to Smid,) positive CORSI (shots for vs shots against.)
Yes he's been important for Oils, but by lack of better dman that plays like him. Not saying Kaberle's better then him, not at all. But again, when you don't have a true #1, better have at least some backup plans. He did the job for the Habs and surely can do it for Oils.

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08-25-2012, 10:57 AM
  #27
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I hOnestly bielieve Kaberle will have a good season I just think he wasn't right for Carolina, like he said he loves playing in Montréal under the scope....I bieleve he plays better under pressure in a Big Market like Montreal.

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08-25-2012, 11:11 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the gazur voit View Post
Yes he's been important for Oils, but by lack of better dman that plays like him. Not saying Kaberle's better then him, not at all. But again, when you don't have a true #1, better have at least some backup plans. He did the job for the Habs and surely can do it for Oils.
Kaberle didnt do the job for the Habs last season. They had a brutal power play with him leading the way. He plays below average ES time and pretty much does not touch the ice short handed.

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08-25-2012, 11:15 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Homesick View Post
Kaberle didnt do the job for the Habs last season. They had a brutal power play with him leading the way. He plays below average ES time and pretty much does not touch the ice short handed.
Habs were bad overall last year. If you think Kaberle's had anything to do with it, well, you're wrong.

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08-25-2012, 11:28 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by the gazur voit View Post
Habs were bad overall last year. If you think Kaberle's had anything to do with it, well, you're wrong.
If you don't think that Kaberle had anything to do with it, well, you're wrong. His lack of production on the PP, and his lack of actual defensive play is the last thing the Oilers need. This thread also didnt need you coming in with "why would the Oilers want to get better?" comment. Kaberle might play the position of "defense" but he doesnt know how to play "defense". He's old, broken, overpaid, and flat out sucks at ES and PK.

Josh Jorges would be a player that the Oilers(and 28 other teams) would love to acquire but would be far to expensive.

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08-25-2012, 11:34 AM
  #31
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Kaberle isn't as bad as people think. He'd likely outscore all of Edmonton's D anyway. That isn't a shot at edmonton's D. It just means kaberle is a poin producing d-man. In his time in montreal he was on pace to outscore subban and everyone else as well.

He's slightly overpaid, boo hoo.

The reason I don't want kaberle has nothing to do with his contract, it's the fact montreal's D is super soft. If it weren't for that, no problem with kaberle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homesick View Post
If you don't think that Kaberle had anything to do with it, well, you're wrong. His lack of production on the PP, and his lack of actual defensive play is the last thing the Oilers need. This thread also didnt need you coming in with "why would the Oilers want to get better?" comment. Kaberle might play the position of "defense" but he doesnt know how to play "defense". He's old, broken, overpaid, and flat out sucks at ES and PK.

Josh Jorges would be a player that the Oilers(and 28 other teams) would love to acquire but would be far to expensive.
He improved habs PP. 55% of his points in MTL came on the PP.

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Old
08-25-2012, 11:38 AM
  #32
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I'd do it, however I don't really see how the club could use Bélanger. Nokelainen is a right handed center, Bélanger is left handed. That does make a difference. Unless we're planning on moving Eller, which I don't foresee, he would be as redundant as Kaberle. Cheaper though that I concede.

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08-25-2012, 11:40 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Homesick View Post
His lack of production on the PP, and his lack of actual defensive play is the last thing the Oilers need. This thread also didnt need you coming in with "why would the Oilers want to get better?" comment. Kaberle might play the position of "defense" but he doesnt know how to play "defense". He's old, broken, overpaid, and flat out sucks at ES and PK.

Josh Jorges would be a player that the Oilers(and 28 other teams) would love to acquire but would be far to expensive.
Why not trying to stay realistic too?

I know you guys are comfy at bottom dwelling since you get these nice picks, but seriously, the Oilers are ready to start kicking some arses. Making the right little trades could work great.

1- Kaberle brings more to a team then what Belanger brings. This is a matter of opinion but I'm sure I would be in the majority thinking that. Belanger has been sucking for a while, well before playing for Edm.
2- You guys don't have depth at D + they're young + they have history with injuries (like a lot of other teams including MTL)
3- It cost more to get more. Little fixes can help get you far.
4- Kaberle's might not work out. But you'd be a fool not to try for free (or almost for free)
5- You have the cap space.

Be upset at my "why would the Oilers want to get better?" comment as much as you want, but this is the feeling I get everytime I read an Oilers trade thread involving them getting a more experienced player. And this one isn't even giving up something of value or a young guy.

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08-25-2012, 12:03 PM
  #34
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Would be a step backward for the Oilers, have no interest in Kaberle. Kaberle has lost more then a couple of steps and it's debatable if he would make the top 6 on the Oilers squad. He's not going to beat out Smid, N.Schultz, Whitney, Petry, and J.Schultz and he's not physical enough to fill out the other position.

Face it this proposal is a salary dump, Oilers pass.

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Old
08-25-2012, 12:03 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the gazur voit View Post
Why not trying to stay realistic too?

I know you guys are comfy at bottom dwelling since you get these nice picks, but seriously, the Oilers are ready to start kicking some arses. Making the right little trades could work great.

1- Kaberle brings more to a team then what Belanger brings. This is a matter of opinion but I'm sure I would be in the majority thinking that. Belanger has been sucking for a while, well before playing for Edm.
2- You guys don't have depth at D + they're young + they have history with injuries (like a lot of other teams including MTL)
3- It cost more to get more. Little fixes can help get you far.
4- Kaberle's might not work out. But you'd be a fool not to try for free (or almost for free)
5- You have the cap space.

Be upset at my "why would the Oilers want to get better?" comment as much as you want, but this is the feeling I get everytime I read an Oilers trade thread involving them getting a more experienced player. And this one isn't even giving up something of value or a young guy.
Edmonton had the 3rd best power play last season - and have added Yakupov and J.Shultz for the upcoming season. Belanger is a good face-off guy, and plays on the PK. Edmonton has a defensive centre in the minors (Anton Lander) and would like to have him develop.

If there is an injury to the defense, they can bring up Marincin, Tuebert, Fedun, etc. They expect that Klefbom will be leaving Fjarstad next season, anyway, and he'll be pressing for a slot. Edmonton has more use for Belanger right now than Kaberle.

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08-25-2012, 12:07 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the gazur voit View Post
Why not trying to stay realistic too?

I know you guys are comfy at bottom dwelling since you get these nice picks, but seriously, the Oilers are ready to start kicking some arses. Making the right little trades could work great.

1- Kaberle brings more to a team then what Belanger brings. This is a matter of opinion but I'm sure I would be in the majority thinking that. Belanger has been sucking for a while, well before playing for Edm.
2- You guys don't have depth at D + they're young + they have history with injuries (like a lot of other teams including MTL)
3- It cost more to get more. Little fixes can help get you far.
4- Kaberle's might not work out. But you'd be a fool not to try for free (or almost for free)
5- You have the cap space.

Be upset at my "why would the Oilers want to get better?" comment as much as you want, but this is the feeling I get everytime I read an Oilers trade thread involving them getting a more experienced player. And this one isn't even giving up something of value or a young guy.
I doubt you'd be in the majority. At this point Kaberle is a PP specialist, something the Oil don't need help in. Belanger is a faceoff and PK specialist, something that does fill a need. Plus he's cheaper.

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Old
08-25-2012, 12:14 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Kaberle isn't as bad as people think. He'd likely outscore all of Edmonton's D anyway. That isn't a shot at edmonton's D. It just means kaberle is a poin producing d-man. In his time in montreal he was on pace to outscore subban and everyone else as well.
I wouldn't say "likely".

He wouldn't outscore a healthy Whitney and Petry was on pace for 40 points(with only a few minutes on the PP) while playing with Smid in the second half of the season.

Our D isn't near as bad as people think.

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08-25-2012, 12:20 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the gazur voit View Post
Why not trying to stay realistic too?

I know you guys are comfy at bottom dwelling since you get these nice picks, but seriously, the Oilers are ready to start kicking some arses. Making the right little trades could work great.

1- Kaberle brings more to a team then what Belanger brings. This is a matter of opinion but I'm sure I would be in the majority thinking that. Belanger has been sucking for a while, well before playing for Edm.
2- You guys don't have depth at D + they're young + they have history with injuries (like a lot of other teams including MTL)
3- It cost more to get more. Little fixes can help get you far.
4- Kaberle's might not work out. But you'd be a fool not to try for free (or almost for free)
5- You have the cap space.

Be upset at my "why would the Oilers want to get better?" comment as much as you want, but this is the feeling I get everytime I read an Oilers trade thread involving them getting a more experienced player. And this one isn't even giving up something of value or a young guy.
Uh, more experienced? Belanger and Kaberle are both vets of 10+ seasons. If you are talking about being a seasoned vet compared to our D, the you have to accept we'd be losing a seasoned vet for our 4th line C, with our only conceivable replacement being Lander (56 career games played).

Secondly, Kaberle brings nothing in the way of grit or D. He has an excellent first pass and stretch pass, but is only a slightly above average option playing the point on the PP. One problem though, he is a lefty, and if you knew anything about the Oilers PP you'd realize everything starts with The Nuge on the right side half wall, meaning he needs a RHD as a trigger man. Because of this, Kaberle truly offers nothing to our team. These are our likely pairings. Explain to me who he replaces...

Smid-Petry. Smid is our only true shutdown guy and does so very well. Think of him as our Gorges. Would you play Kaberle ahead of Gorges? Petry is still raw defensively, but a better skater, more physical and a RHD.

Whitney-NSchultz. Whitney is a similar player to Kaberle, but is bigger and (while not a force by any stretch) still more physical than Kaberle. Schultz is a glue guy on the back end, and though Kaberle is much better at creating chances/offence, Schultz brings the same on the defensive side. We traded Gilbert (another Kaberle comparable) to acquire Schultz for a reason.

Sutton-JSchultz. Ok, yes Kaberle in terms of on ice value likely brings more than either of these two (though I personally believe Schultz is the real deal and will put up 40pts next year due to PP time), but that doesn't mean he is the right fit. Schultz will get first unit PP time and sheltered bottom pairing minutes. Obviously to succeed and play his game comfortably he will need a stay at home Dman with toughness (to stick up for him). Both Sutton and Peckham will provide this as our 6/7 guys.

At the end of the day, Belanger fills a greater need than Kaberle. If this isn't a good enough explanation as to why, then I'm not sure you're ever going to understand.

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Old
08-25-2012, 12:55 PM
  #39
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I wouldn't say "likely".

He wouldn't outscore a healthy Whitney and Petry was on pace for 40 points(with only a few minutes on the PP) while playing with Smid in the second half of the season.

Our D isn't near as bad as people think.
That wasn't my point. Kaberle was on pace for 42 points in montreal and his previous seasons have him hitting even more than that. It's not a shot at edmonton at all but this is kaberle's bread and butter.

As for healthy whitney, I agree but it's somewhat trivial. A healthy markov would be the oilers best D, but it's not always that simple.

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08-25-2012, 01:02 PM
  #40
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Edmonton needs puck movers. I havent watched much of kaberle but if he can move the puck up to the forwards(which is edmontons BIGGEST issue) I would do it.

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08-25-2012, 01:10 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the gazur voit View Post
Why not trying to stay realistic too?

I know you guys are comfy at bottom dwelling since you get these nice picks, but seriously, the Oilers are ready to start kicking some arses. Making the right little trades could work great.

1- Kaberle brings more to a team then what Belanger brings. This is a matter of opinion but I'm sure I would be in the majority thinking that. Belanger has been sucking for a while, well before playing for Edm.
2- You guys don't have depth at D + they're young + they have history with injuries (like a lot of other teams including MTL)
3- It cost more to get more. Little fixes can help get you far.
4- Kaberle's might not work out. But you'd be a fool not to try for free (or almost for free)
5- You have the cap space.

Be upset at my "why would the Oilers want to get better?" comment as much as you want, but this is the feeling I get everytime I read an Oilers trade thread involving them getting a more experienced player. And this one isn't even giving up something of value or a young guy.
I agree with the bolded. However this proposal is not such a trade. In fact it is the total opposite from an Oilers pov.
It would be considered a masterstoke by Bergevin if he could dump Kaberle's contract and only have to take 2 years of Belanger at 1.75 back.

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08-25-2012, 02:56 PM
  #42
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As an Oil fan, I endorse Viqsi's assessment 100%.
Nothing really else to say. 100% agree as well

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08-25-2012, 02:57 PM
  #43
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Why not? Some experience + 40 points at the D would surely help. At the very low cost of Belanger (who we know already know doesn't make them better). Such a low risk, mid-high reward type of trade. It's not like Oils needs Kaberle's money right now anyway.
Since you are so uninformed. Goto google and look up Oilers 10-11 PK and faceoff stats and then look at 11-12 pk and faceoff stats

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08-25-2012, 03:02 PM
  #44
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Uh, more experienced? Belanger and Kaberle are both vets of 10+ seasons. If you are talking about being a seasoned vet compared to our D, the you have to accept we'd be losing a seasoned vet for our 4th line C, with our only conceivable replacement being Lander (56 career games played).

Secondly, Kaberle brings nothing in the way of grit or D. He has an excellent first pass and stretch pass, but is only a slightly above average option playing the point on the PP. One problem though, he is a lefty, and if you knew anything about the Oilers PP you'd realize everything starts with The Nuge on the right side half wall, meaning he needs a RHD as a trigger man. Because of this, Kaberle truly offers nothing to our team. These are our likely pairings. Explain to me who he replaces...

Smid-Petry. Smid is our only true shutdown guy and does so very well. Think of him as our Gorges. Would you play Kaberle ahead of Gorges? Petry is still raw defensively, but a better skater, more physical and a RHD.

Whitney-NSchultz. Whitney is a similar player to Kaberle, but is bigger and (while not a force by any stretch) still more physical than Kaberle. Schultz is a glue guy on the back end, and though Kaberle is much better at creating chances/offence, Schultz brings the same on the defensive side. We traded Gilbert (another Kaberle comparable) to acquire Schultz for a reason.

Sutton-JSchultz. Ok, yes Kaberle in terms of on ice value likely brings more than either of these two (though I personally believe Schultz is the real deal and will put up 40pts next year due to PP time), but that doesn't mean he is the right fit. Schultz will get first unit PP time and sheltered bottom pairing minutes. Obviously to succeed and play his game comfortably he will need a stay at home Dman with toughness (to stick up for him). Both Sutton and Peckham will provide this as our 6/7 guys.

At the end of the day, Belanger fills a greater need than Kaberle. If this isn't a good enough explanation as to why, then I'm not sure you're ever going to understand.
Hopefully this post doesnt get ignored.


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08-25-2012, 03:06 PM
  #45
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It'll be a short while before most Oil fans will be awake to properly castigate you for this idea, so allow me to serve as a poor substitute.

Edmonton, to the extent that blueliners are needed at all (which is much less than one might guess), needs actual quality blueliners, not warm bodies that happen to play the blueline position. Even though Belanger wasn't as effective over there as one might hope, his contract is not nearly as g-dawful as Kaberle's, and so there's really no reason for them to make this deal.
Yeah you did a pretty good job, this is pretty much what i would say. We can still use Belanger for faceoffs and PK, and believe it or not we don't have IMO an NHL ready option for the 4th beyond him. Kaberle isn't needed, we have Whitney for his role.

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08-25-2012, 03:08 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by the gazur voit View Post
Why not? Some experience + 40 points at the D would surely help. At the very low cost of Belanger (who we know already know doesn't make them better). Such a low risk, mid-high reward type of trade. It's not like Oils needs Kaberle's money right now anyway.
I don't think Belanger was a huge help but one could certainly argue he made the team better. The Oilers improved their goal differential by 50 goals or so last year, as much as Belanger struggled with offense he was fairly low event for GA and helped the PK as well as being able to take key defensive zone draws. I don't think there is much question that he actually did help the team, it just wasn't by as much as most figured he would.

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08-25-2012, 03:13 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by the gazur voit View Post
Montreal is a different situation. I think Kaberle can do good in MTL and that's why they wouldn't never do a trade like this.

Smid and Schultz are obviously more important and better for the Oilers but covers different areas. Whit and Petry are ok and also important for the Oils for PP but aren't great players + injuries happens. JSchultz is a prospect and might need some sheltered minutes. Sutton should be the one in need of sheltered minutes actually. Peckham and Potter shouldn't be playing in this league.

Belanger is living his last contract. He's pretty awful now.
You don't know what you are talking about, especially in reards to Petry. Petry was terrific last year. Whitney was only ok because of his ankle but he could still bounce back and even at his worst is at the very least as good as Kaberle and without the brutal contract. Sutton doesn't need to be sheltered too much, he can still take key dzone draws he had a good year last season. He's a 3rd pairing guy, but a useful one at that. Peckham is a good young defenseman still, no need to give up on a guy after his 23 year old season.

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08-25-2012, 03:26 PM
  #48
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Belanger is pretty much only good at winning faceoffs.

Can he still do that ?

Even with that said, I think the habs have too many bottom 6 players already + they need rookies to be able to draw in in case of injury.

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08-25-2012, 03:56 PM
  #49
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I'd rather deal Kaberle for picks than a filler.

Kaberle is still good for 40 points and is not nearly as bad as you say he his defensively....
He came up incredibly out of shape because he had a looong cup run and partying... With a good summer of working out he'll be back.

Kaberle on the 2nd PP would give us one of the best 1-2 pp units in the league.


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08-25-2012, 04:17 PM
  #50
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I'd do it from the Oilers POV just because of the uncertainty around Whitney's health.

But the Habs have the same/worse issue with Markov, so I'm not seeing the incentive.

Maybe Omark + Belanger or something, but that's about it.

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