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08-25-2012, 09:16 AM
  #1
kes81sel
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Oilers fan coming in peace

I would just like your opinion on witch team will do better in the 2012-2013 season, assuming there will be one, the oil or the flames.

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08-25-2012, 10:35 AM
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TheHudlinator
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I think this season the Flames will be better but the gap will close between the two teams and the season after the oilers will surpass us in the standings (I think they will be in the top 4 in the west)

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08-25-2012, 10:47 AM
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That's a tough call. Oilers made significant improvement, but I still don't think it's enough. Likewise the Flames have made some good improvement, but again, I don't think it's enough to address their key issues. Both teams had a change on their bench, which was the biggest change of all.

Obviously Yakupov is an impact forward for many, many years, but the Oilers didn't need another small forward. Shultz is a great asset on paper, but has yet to display anything legitamite. If Shultz pans out, or Klefbom, Marincin, or Teubert step up immediately, while Dubnyk continues to improve and become a solid starter, then the Oilers are a real challenge.

Likewise the Flames have some consistent star talent in Iginla and Kipper, but for too long have we been riding them to carry this team. Our forward depth has always been Iginla, and then a lot of potential 40+ point getters. I think Cammy and Baertschi are the biggest question mark as far as changing that. While Irving is the biggest question mark as to whether Kipper can take days off.

A lot of question marks surrounding both teams, no question. I'm taking the Flames because I still think we have you beat in goaltending for sure. Our defense is obviously looks better, but yours might be surprising. You have us beat in the top 6, especially down the middle, but not in forward depth. Our coaching, on paper anyways, clearly has you beat, but you're potential has us beat.


Last edited by MarkGio: 08-25-2012 at 11:09 AM.
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08-25-2012, 10:55 AM
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kes81sel
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great response i agree that its hard to say as well

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08-25-2012, 11:26 AM
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Flames will still end up 9-11th. The team simply just isn't bad enough to finish in the bottom of the standings (assuming most players are healthy that is).

The Oilers success in my opinion depends more on their goalie and defensive system.

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08-25-2012, 11:27 AM
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Flames, although the gap is closing fast.. Should be a good battle when they meet up this season.

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08-25-2012, 11:52 AM
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Gap is much closer, Oil still didn't address the main problem this offseason; a top shut down pair and a top tier goalie. Probably still be a bottom 10 team, however should be a bit better than dead last and bottom two.

I don't think they're quite there yet. In a few years they might end up being pretty damn good, that's if they finally get their D-man. Hopefully it's before they have to pay those four kids the big bucks (all +6 mill contracts heh).

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08-25-2012, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Miokid View Post
Gap is much closer, Oil still didn't address the main problem this offseason; a top shut down pair and a top tier goalie. Probably still be a bottom 10 team, however should be a bit better than dead last and bottom two.

I don't think they're quite there yet. In a few years they might end up being pretty damn good, that's if they finally get their D-man. Hopefully it's before they have to pay those four kids the big bucks (all +6 mill contracts heh).
And that's the big IF regarding the Oilers. They can't build the proper depth if they have to start signing tough cheques. Likewise, they might have trouble keeping players long term. I know if I was Eberle, I'd take advantage of a sooner unrestricted free agency before the next CBA eliminates that. I'd go to arb.

Look at the Islanders and how they've had to lose some players to F.A, and then look at the Blackhawks having to dismantle after winning the cup. Had the Blackhawks lost that year, they might not have ever won the cup until their next rebuild because they had to dismantle so bad. Even though the cap has increased every year, the Oilers window for a very deep team is closing soon.

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08-25-2012, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
And that's the big IF regarding the Oilers. They can't build the proper depth if they have to start signing tough cheques. Likewise, they might have trouble keeping players long term. I know if I was Eberle, I'd take advantage of a sooner unrestricted free agency before the next CBA eliminates that. I'd go to arb.

Look at the Islanders and how they've had to lose some players to F.A, and then look at the Blackhawks having to dismantle after winning the cup. Had the Blackhawks lost that year, they might not have ever won the cup until their next rebuild because they had to dismantle so bad. Even though the cap has increased every year, the Oilers window for a very deep team is closing soon.
I don't think resigning their players is that big of a deal lets assume that in 2 years the cap is around what is today they could sign Eberle, RNH, Yak to Hall like deals and still have over 35 million in cap space to sign defenseman and a goalie, and if Dubnyk does become the decent starter that I think he will be they could resign him for a decent value at around what he gets now and still have over 30 million to spend on defense and support players and only be 1 year away from Horcoff's contract ending and giving them another 5.5 million to spend.

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08-25-2012, 12:28 PM
  #10
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I don't think resigning their players is that big of a deal lets assume that in 2 years the cap is around what is today they could sign Eberle, RNH, Yak to Hall like deals and still have over 35 million in cap space to sign defenseman and a goalie, and if Dubnyk does become the decent starter that I think he will be they could resign him for a decent value at around what he gets now and still have over 30 million to spend on defense and support players and only be 1 year away from Horcoff's contract ending and giving them another 5.5 million to spend.
Hall at 6 million concerns me from an Oilers perspective. Hemsky at 5 million was concerning too. They're simply not getting hometown discounts. That means Eberle is at least 6 million and Gagne is at least 4 million. Dubnyk, Shultz, RNH, Whitney, etc will be looking for severe pay increases pretty soon I'd imagine. So now they'll have to overpay free agents too. It adds up quick.

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08-25-2012, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Hall at 6 million concerns me from an Oilers perspective. Hemsky at 5 million was concerning too. They're simply not getting hometown discounts. That means Eberle is at least 6 million and Gagne is at least 4 million. Dubnyk, Shultz, RNH, Whitney, etc will be looking for severe pay increases pretty soon I'd imagine. So now they'll have to overpay free agents too. It adds up quick.
Dubynk is already making 3.5 million there is little chance that he gets that big of a pay increase and I agree Hall did not take a hometown discount but as I said even if each of the big 4 make 6 million they will have tons of cap space to bring in free agents, I wouldn't use Hemsky as an example for not taking a home town discount as he wanted a retirement contract and the oilers overpaid him to take a 2 year deal instead.

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08-25-2012, 12:51 PM
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I think both teams will have their good stretches and bad. Theywill start off strong, and the boards will be flooded with Oiler hype, then........they will struggle, and we finish higher. In otherwords, the same as every year!

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08-25-2012, 01:10 PM
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boooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!

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08-25-2012, 01:37 PM
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This is really tough, and I think the teams will finish within 6 points of each other with the difference depending on injuries resulting in who will finish higher.

The way I see it, I give an edge to the Oilers in top 6 (as others mentioned) and PP units. I think the Flames have an overall better forward corps though (that has gotten much younger) and we have a better defence and MUCH better goaltending.

Because the top 6 gets the majority of minutes, I expect the Oilers to be the better offensive team over the Flames (although I don't think by much). And while the Flames should definitely have a better defence than the Oilers, I also don't expect the gap to be by that much as there as are some concerns as to how well the Flames will be in their own end.

All in all, both teams could make the playoffs, I think it will come down to injuries.

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08-25-2012, 02:13 PM
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MarkGio
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Dubynk is already making 3.5 million there is little chance that he gets that big of a pay increase and I agree Hall did not take a hometown discount but as I said even if each of the big 4 make 6 million they will have tons of cap space to bring in free agents, I wouldn't use Hemsky as an example for not taking a home town discount as he wanted a retirement contract and the oilers overpaid him to take a 2 year deal instead.
4 players is just over 1 top line. They're (legit) supporting staff of Gagne, Hemsky, and Smyth either need to be replaced with better talent, which is the likely scenerio, or they need to be resigned and won't take a discount. Except Smyth bleeds copper and gold.

So then there's bottom 6 depth, such as Omark, Paajarvi, Lander and Hartikainen. All due for a pay raise soon, and likely not physical enough. And then there's a nothing defense except for Smid and Shultz, and a over-hyped Whitney. All looking for a pay raise soon. And then there's the blue-line prospects too. Dubnyk will eventually be a decent starter and will either want a pay raise or a new team.

Anyways it adds up. I wanted to see the Oilers land a legit free agent to be truly afraid that they would win a cup. I also wanted to see some hometown discounts. I saw neither. They likely have a bad stigma with players given the situations that have occurred over years (ie, Pronger, Souray, Smyth) and my evidence for that would be the Heatley situation. I'm not sure players have them as a destination.

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08-25-2012, 02:30 PM
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Sean Monahan
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Soon enough the Oilers will just outscore anyone ala the Flyers

But contrary to popular belief Dubnyk is actually a good goalie

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08-25-2012, 02:47 PM
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I would not be surprised at all if the Oilers finish ahead of us this year.

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08-25-2012, 03:04 PM
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TheHudlinator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
4 players is just over 1 top line. They're (legit) supporting staff of Gagne, Hemsky, and Smyth either need to be replaced with better talent, which is the likely scenerio, or they need to be resigned and won't take a discount. Except Smyth bleeds copper and gold.

So then there's bottom 6 depth, such as Omark, Paajarvi, Lander and Hartikainen. All due for a pay raise soon, and likely not physical enough. And then there's a nothing defense except for Smid and Shultz, and a over-hyped Whitney. All looking for a pay raise soon. And then there's the blue-line prospects too. Dubnyk will eventually be a decent starter and will either want a pay raise or a new team.

Anyways it adds up. I wanted to see the Oilers land a legit free agent to be truly afraid that they would win a cup. I also wanted to see some hometown discounts. I saw neither. They likely have a bad stigma with players given the situations that have occurred over years (ie, Pronger, Souray, Smyth) and my evidence for that would be the Heatley situation. I'm not sure players have them as a destination.
I am aware of that but look at the kings last year the cap was 64.3 million and their 4 biggest cap hits in total was 22.072 million or 34% with a cap of 70 million the big four would need a combined caphit of 24 million or 4 caphits of 6 million each (what Hall got) in other words their is no problem resigning the core.

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08-25-2012, 03:33 PM
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Assuming DD plays at th sme level flames do better because of Kipper. It would take either TD regression if Kipper and/or d turning not a franchise goalie Ti the oilers to surpass the flames at ths current point.

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08-25-2012, 03:34 PM
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Assuming DD plays at th sme level flames do better because of Kipper. It would take either TD regression if Kipper and/or d turning not a franchise goalie Ti the oilers to surpass the flames at ths current point.
Tfong, you gotta lay off the booze in the middle of afternoon!

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08-25-2012, 03:40 PM
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tfong
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Tfong, you gotta lay off the booze in the middle of afternoon!
*puts away the iJack Danels*


Edit: auto corrects is so stupid

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08-25-2012, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I am aware of that but look at the kings last year the cap was 64.3 million and their 4 biggest cap hits in total was 22.072 million or 34% with a cap of 70 million the big four would need a combined caphit of 24 million or 4 caphits of 6 million each (what Hall got) in other words their is no problem resigning the core.
I'm not saying that the Oilers will have any trouble signing their core. Any team in the league can afford 4 players. I'm saying the Oilers need to capitalize on their cheap entry level salaries in order to afford talented depth, or they should be getting home town discounts. If they can't get deals, then they'll have to settle with cheaper depth players.

The Kings are sitting on some absolute steals for contracts. They probably saved 3-5 million in total with Williams, Brown, and Quick discount contracts, thereby allowing them to afford a Carter or Penner salary as their depth players. The Oilers are only sitting on steal contracts because they're entry level. That will change soon.

The Blackhawks could afford to obtain Hossa because depth players like Ladd and Byfuglien were entry level cheap. But that couldn't last forever, and similarly the Oilers will have to cough up money to keep their depth players.

Either you get discounts, or you get it done quickly before you sign some big cheques. That's the rebuild strategy in a cap world, IMO anyways.

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08-25-2012, 04:01 PM
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I would not be surprised at all if the Oilers finish ahead of us this year.
Not yet IMO. The biggest difference in the Flames' favor is still obviously goaltending. I must admit I'm somewhat amazed Kipper can still play so many games at his age at such a high level. I know a lot of Flame fans resist the idea of a rebuild but with one trade you'd not only likely get back an excellent return but you'd also get a serious shot at MacKinnon or Jones. That must be tempting to some of you...

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08-25-2012, 04:03 PM
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Assuming DD plays at th sme level flames do better because of Kipper. It would take either TD regression if Kipper and/or d turning not a franchise goalie Ti the oilers to surpass the flames at ths current point.
Lol.

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08-25-2012, 04:11 PM
  #25
TheHudlinator
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I'm not saying that the Oilers will have any trouble signing their core. Any team in the league can afford 4 players. I'm saying the Oilers need to capitalize on their cheap entry level salaries in order to afford talented depth, or they should be getting home town discounts. If they can't get deals, then they'll have to settle with cheaper depth players.

The Kings are sitting on some absolute steals for contracts. They probably saved 3-5 million in total with Williams, Brown, and Quick discount contracts, thereby allowing them to afford a Carter or Penner salary as their depth players. The Oilers are only sitting on steal contracts because they're entry level. That will change soon.

The Blackhawks could afford to obtain Hossa because depth players like Ladd and Byfuglien were entry level cheap. But that couldn't last forever, and similarly the Oilers will have to cough up money to keep their depth players.

Either you get discounts, or you get it done quickly before you sign some big cheques. That's the rebuild strategy in a cap world, IMO anyways.
I agree but all I am saying is just because Hall didn't take a discount doesn't mean that Eberle (he seems like the type to me), Dubynk, RNH, Yak could take a pay cut.

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