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08-25-2012, 01:22 PM
  #76
Jame
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and for the record, im not all "YEA SIGN DOAN AWESOME!!!"

But I can rationalize it from the Buffalo Sabres perspective... and if they are offering him that kind of deal... im confident that I am 100% Right, when I say they are offering to pay him that money for the impact he would provide to a leaderless group of young future core members of what the franchise believes will be a contender some day.

Do you want all the youth movement to be following the example of Shane Doan day in and day out... or thomas vanek?

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08-25-2012, 01:25 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
I believe in all that stuff. I don't believe ONE vet can bestow all those benefits to a GROUP of young players, over and above what the coaching staff will provide, to the point of turning them into Cup winners if they don't already have the right attitudes. Therefore Doan isn't worth an extra 2-3 mil of GUARANTEED cap hit during the time frame that most people don't expect the rookies to actually win anything. Doan hasn't done anything like that his entire career so I don't know why anyone would expect that to happen in Buffalo while his abilities deteriorate.

It's like Doan has walked on water, and turned water into wine. He's really just an apostle, so he should be playing for Buffalo out of the goodness of his heart instead of 7.5 mil per.
I don't think Doan can do it all by himself either. But I also think there are limitations to what a coaching staff can do. Signing a player like Doan adds another leader who garners respect, and players see and emulate how he goes about his game. I'm OK with overpaying for that type of player.

Phoenix and Buffalo are two situations with very few similarities. In the six seasons prior to Tippett taking over, Phoenix missed the playoffs for six years. Doan's fault? He scored over 60 points in four of those six seasons. Only Mike Johnson and Mike Comrie got to the 60 point mark in those six seasons. It wasn't a very good team.

It's a different situation to carry a team without much talent, and to help lead a team with current and young talent.

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08-25-2012, 01:26 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
and for the record, im not all "YEA SIGN DOAN AWESOME!!!"

But I can rationalize it from the Buffalo Sabres perspective... and if they are offering him that kind of deal... im confident that I am 100% Right, when I say they are offering to pay him that money for the impact he would provide to a leaderless group of young future core members of what the franchise believes will be a contender some day.

Do you want all the youth movement to be following the example of Shane Doan day in and day out... or thomas vanek?
Easy, Shane Doan.

Still, not even remotely close to being worth $7.5 million for 4 years.

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08-25-2012, 01:34 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
My opinion on Doan hasn't changed -- nice player, would be good to have at the right price. I don't view the reported $7.5M/4yr deal as the right price.
How about insane? It's $2-$2.5 over his value as UFA. I find it hard to believe anyone else will give him four years $25-million.
This is a mistake happening in slow motion. What exactly has he proven in Phoenix? I'm missing it. He has a good reputation in international hockey. That's it. His career is on downside.
The nail in the coffin is the money counts as a cap hit no matter what.

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08-25-2012, 01:39 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
Easy, Shane Doan.

Still, not even remotely close to being worth $7.5 million for 4 years.
i look at Ryan Callahan... and think for the Rangers, Chris Drury was worth every penny.

i dont think Detroit got lucky with dats and zets... i think they had the right people in place for them to learn from

different perspective...

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08-25-2012, 01:41 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Well said.

I'm confident Regier isn't dumb enough to hand this team to a bunch of unproven kids in 2-3 years.


I'm also amazed posters think it makes sense to just throw away players like Vanek/Pommer based on the ridiculous premise that they didn't "carry" the team anywhere. Or the insanity of expecting all of these unproven youngsters and prospects to carry the team in a few years.

Well built and deep teams win Cups. It would make far more sense to re-sign them and if these kids start hitting their potential. We could have a very deep and well built team. You know, the kind that wins Cups.
I'm not sure anyone's advocating throwing away Pominville or Vanek. Buffalo isn't going to sign all their free agents between now and the 2014-2015 season, but they probably resign a few. I think it's reasonable to expect that Pominville, Regehr, Ott, and probably McCormick resign. I think Vanek leaves due to Ruff, and Regier doesn't attempt to resign Leopold. I'm 50/50 about Sulzer, who I'd like to keep, and who knows what Miller is thinking. Assuming that the young players all play to expectation, the team looks pretty good going into 2014-2015 even without free agents:

Leino, Foligno, Ott, Gerbe, Hodgson, Ennis, Girgensons, Grigorenko, Doan, Stafford, Pominville, Armia, Tropp, Kaleta, McCormick, Adam, Catanecci going to camp as the main bulk of the forwards.

Sekera, Myers, Ehrhoff, Regehr, Pysyk, McNabb, Weber, JGL, Brennan to choose from on defense.

That's deep and I'd argue, well built.

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08-25-2012, 01:48 PM
  #82
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i think anything that aids in the development of the youth of this team is the single most important thing the Sabres can invest in over the next 4 years.

Just like adding Regehr adding something the sabres needed... the real benefit is supposed to be the affect he has on Myers, Sekera, McNabb, etc

I'm fine with buying a better role model for the forwards.

The sabres are a team with endless financial abilities... teams like that don't worry about the cap... they dont need to, they will find a way to deal with it.

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08-25-2012, 01:58 PM
  #83
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i look at Ryan Callahan... and think for the Rangers, Chris Drury was worth every penny.
This is all I need to know to write off your opinion on this subject.

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08-25-2012, 02:04 PM
  #84
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This is all I need to know to write off your opinion on this subject.
im glad.

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08-25-2012, 02:07 PM
  #85
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Meh, it's just cap space. Sure, 7.5 million is overpaying compared to the market. But, when you consider acquiring Shane Doan at the deadline is going to cost you a 1st rounder and a top prospect....2.5-3 million of burned cap space isn't going to kill you.

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08-25-2012, 02:55 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post

Do you want all the youth movement to be following the example of Shane Doan day in and day out... or thomas vanek?
Uh how about both?We have the cap space even signing Ennis to a ~2.5 cap hit contract by putting Pardy in the AHL.Next season just by Regehr and Leopold coming off the books there would be 7 million to earmark towards Doan.And we have enough Dmen in the pipeline to replace those 2.

I'd put Leino in the AHL to gain cap space since you just said the Sabres are a team with "endless financial abilities" instead of just letting Vanek walk for nothing.You let your personal vendettas get in the way of making the Sabres a better team.It's laughable you would rather have a 38 year old Shane Doan making 7.5 a year instead of re-signing a top LW in the league at age 30 to a contract lower then his current caphit.

For the record I condone the Doan signing but as an addition to the current roster and to make the cap space available by trimming the fat, not trying to dump our best offensive player for nothing.3 days ago you were suggesting trading Vanek for Niklas Hjalmarsson No one besides someone with an unwarranted personal hatred for a player would ever suggest trading a premier LW in the NHL for a 2nd pairing d-man

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Originally Posted by Jame
im not worried about it... there is very little chance vanek is re-signed
Wrong.Vanek will be re-signed because Darcy Regier knows how difficult it will be to acquire a forward with Vanek's scoring prowess to come to Buffalo.You think he hasn't learned from his first 2 FA periods under Pegula that even with unlimited money you can't even get a top notch UFA to sign in Buffalo?And don't even mention trading for one, because that is just terrible asset management by letting a proven 1st line LW walk for nothing and then turn around and trading the massive assets it would take to acquire a Vanek caliber player.

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Originally Posted by Jame
yes, because sekera has had the same responsibility, contract, role as the other two... i know you are desperate to make some sort of point about how stupid i am, so changing the subject makes sense...
That statement was just as relevant and true as you calling Vanek a "garbage" skater.And I'm curious to see why it isn't a valid point to bring up the futility of the teams that Andrej Sekera has been on, especially since according to you he has been our best defenseman.Contract means nothing in the grand scheme of things,a player needs to perform regardless of salary.

Sekera has scored 30+ points one time in his whole life...OHL,AHL and NHL.Like I said his team's have won one playoff series his whole life, but playoff success is only attributed to single players when it comes to your side of the argument right?Blaming Vanek for our lack of playoff success over the years is a joke, especially since in 10-11 he carried our team down the stretch to even MAKE the playoffs, but that hasn't stopped you from giving him full blame of it.And when it's your boy that's brought up in the SAME EXACT scenario (no playoff success) you just spin excuses attributing that it's "not the same", except that it is.

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08-25-2012, 02:57 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by GirgsAndGrigs View Post
Meh, it's just cap space. Sure, 7.5 million is overpaying compared to the market. But, when you consider acquiring Shane Doan at the deadline is going to cost you a 1st rounder and a top prospect....2.5-3 million of burned cap space isn't going to kill you.
Seeing as how that makes is VERY hard for them to re-sign Ennis, not to mention the implications if the cap actually goes down, it can definitely hurt.

It's going to make it really, really difficult to resign/sign talented players in the future. Not only will they not have space to improve the team with solid NHL players in the future, they will almost certainly lose some of their own.

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08-25-2012, 04:10 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Uh how about both?We have the cap space even signing Ennis to a ~2.5 cap hit contract by putting Pardy in the AHL.Next season just by Regehr and Leopold coming off the books there would be 7 million to earmark towards Doan.And we have enough Dmen in the pipeline to replace those 2.
keep vanek... dont keep vanek... it's not really a big deal to me. i'll trade him to acquire pieces we need or let him play out his contract

Do you want to resign vanek if his statistics over the next 2 years are in the same ball park as this past season? do you want to re-sign him if he's a 25 goal scorer?

is that really hard to replace? considering, goal scoring is pretty much the only thing he brings to the table

Quote:
I'd put Leino in the AHL to gain cap space since you just said the Sabres are a team with "endless financial abilities" instead of just letting Vanek walk for nothing.You let your personal vendettas get in the way of making the Sabres a better team.It's laughable you would rather have a 38 year old Shane Doan making 7.5 a year instead of re-signing a top LW in the league at age 30 to a contract lower then his current caphit.
that's an option... although, it certainly would have a negative affect on the image of the franchise, and its ability to draw free agents.

yea, personal vandetta.... whatever, the only person i care about is the logo on the front of the sweater... im not attached to individuals like you are.

Quote:
For the record I condone the Doan signing but as an addition to the current roster and to make the cap space available by trimming the fat, not trying to dump our best offensive player for nothing.3 days ago you were suggesting trading Vanek for Niklas Hjalmarsson No one besides someone with an unwarranted personal hatred for a player would ever suggest trading a premier LW in the NHL for a 2nd pairing d-man
i would definitely trade vanek for hjalmarsson and kruger/mcneil/pirri

i know.. im so stupid... so stupid that i started proposing roy for ott last season...



Quote:
Wrong.Vanek will be re-signed because Darcy Regier knows how difficult it will be to acquire a forward with Vanek's scoring prowess to come to Buffalo.You think he hasn't learned from his first 2 FA periods under Pegula that even with unlimited money you can't even get a top notch UFA to sign in Buffalo?And don't even mention trading for one, because that is just terrible asset management by letting a proven 1st line LW walk for nothing and then turn around and trading the massive assets it would take to acquire a Vanek caliber player.
when have i ever said let vanek walk? obviously, we should trade him at the deadline in 2014

there is no way vanek is re-signed... unless regier/ruff are fired.

Quote:
That statement was just as relevant and true as you calling Vanek a "garbage" skater.And I'm curious to see why it isn't a valid point to bring up the futility of the teams that Andrej Sekera has been on, especially since according to you he has been our best defenseman.Contract means nothing in the grand scheme of things,a player needs to perform regardless of salary
.

vanek is a garbage skater... name a skill player who is worse? dave andreychuk doesn't play anymore...

seriously...name one "first liner" who skating ability is worse, more pathetic then vanek's?
i need a luagh... i cant think of anyone off the top of my head.

Quote:
Sekera has scored 30+ points one time in his whole life...OHL,AHL and NHL.Like I said his team's have won one playoff series his whole life, but playoff success is only attributed to single players when it comes to your side of the argument right?
nope... only when there is a correlation around a group of players, their role, and their salary... you know a "core"




Quote:
Blaming Vanek for our lack of playoff success over the years is a joke, especially since in 10-11 he carried our team down the stretch to even MAKE the playoffs, but that hasn't stopped you from giving him full blame of it.And when it's your boy that's brought up in the SAME EXACT scenario (no playoff success) you just spin excuses attributing that it's "not the same", except that it is.
so rochester core and sekera are equals... got it.

making excuses for your teams "best players" is the joke...

ps only people who have a "boy" talk like that... i don;t have any "boys", all i have is quality analysis of players.
(i ripped sekera to shreds for 2 years of suspect play...
i defended vanek in arguments against joshjull numerous times in the past... when he deserved to be defended)


Last edited by Jame: 08-25-2012 at 04:18 PM.
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Old
08-25-2012, 04:16 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
Seeing as how that makes is VERY hard for them to re-sign Ennis, not to mention the implications if the cap actually goes down, it can definitely hurt.

It's going to make it really, really difficult to resign/sign talented players in the future. Not only will they not have space to improve the team with solid NHL players in the future, they will almost certainly lose some of their own.
Buffalo will be tight to the cap, but it's not impossible unless the cap goes down significantly. With only the Doan signing and Ennis resigning, the team is very tight to the cap. (This is all assuming that Ennis makes $3M)

FORWARDS
Marcus Foligno ($0.900m) / Tyler Ennis ($3.000m) / Drew Stafford ($4.000m)
Thomas Vanek ($7.143m) / Cody Hodgson ($1.667m) / Shane Doan ($7.500m)
Ville Leino ($4.500m) / Steve Ott ($2.950m) / Jason Pominville ($5.300m)
Nathan Gerbe ($1.450m) / Cody McCormick ($1.200m) / Patrick Kaleta ($1.250m)
John Scott ($0.600m) / Matt Ellis ($0.525m)

DEFENSEMEN
Andrej Sekera ($2.750m) / Tyler Myers ($5.500m)
Christian Ehrhoff ($4.000m) / Alexander Sulzer ($0.725m)
Robyn Regehr ($4.020m) / Jordan Leopold ($3.000m)
Mike Weber ($0.950m)

GOALTENDERS
Ryan Miller ($6.250m)
Jhonas Enroth ($0.675m)
------
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,854,523; BONUSES: $960,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $345,477

Regier has almost no room in that situation, and has to send Pardy to Rochester. But, it's not impossible, if the cap stays around $70M. The trade everyone's anticipating - Leopold - could make things a lot easier.

FORWARDS
Marcus Foligno ($0.900m) / Tyler Ennis ($3.000m) / Drew Stafford ($4.000m)
Thomas Vanek ($7.143m) / Cody Hodgson ($1.667m) / Shane Doan ($7.500m)
Ville Leino ($4.500m) / Steve Ott ($2.950m) / Jason Pominville ($5.300m)
Nathan Gerbe ($1.450m) / Cody McCormick ($1.200m) / Patrick Kaleta ($1.250m)
John Scott ($0.600m) / Matt Ellis ($0.525m)

DEFENSEMEN
Andrej Sekera ($2.750m) / Tyler Myers ($5.500m)
Christian Ehrhoff ($4.000m) / Alexander Sulzer ($0.725m)
Robyn Regehr ($4.020m) / Brayden McNabb ($0.900m)
Mike Weber ($0.950m)

GOALTENDERS
Ryan Miller ($6.250m)
Jhonas Enroth ($0.675m)
------
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $67,754,523; BONUSES: $1,170,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $2,445,477


The threshold for Buffalo to start making some tough decision is a cap lower than $66,742,023, assuming Ennis' $3M per year contract. To get that number, Regier can shuffle internally and still be OK. McCormick starts in Rochester and Porter plays in Buffalo, and Brennan comes up to replace Leopold instead of McNabb.

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08-25-2012, 04:23 PM
  #90
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3 days ago you were suggesting trading Vanek for Niklas Hjalmarsson No one besides someone with an unwarranted personal hatred for a player would ever suggest trading a premier LW in the NHL for a 2nd pairing d-man
Nope. I suggested that deal. I went to the Chicago board and asked what they thought of a Vanek for Hjalmarsson deal with Adam, Enroth, Pirri, McNeill, and Kruger in play. Then I brought it back to our board.

I have nothing against Vanek in any way. The only player anyone could accuse me of having anything remotely resembling a vendetta against is Leino.

I'd trade Vanek for Hjalmarsson and McNeill. Add in Adam, who Chicago fans like a lot, and Kruger, who fills a defensive center need for Buffalo, and I'm faxing the paperwork. I think McNeill is going to end up on the wing and turn into a pretty decent power forward. Hjalmarsson can play with Myers, and Kruger in between Leino and Pominville would be a good two-way line.

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08-25-2012, 04:27 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Nope. I suggested that deal. I went to the Chicago board and asked what they thought of a Vanek for Hjalmarsson deal with Adam, Enroth, Pirri, McNeill, and Kruger in play. Then I brought it back to our board.

I have nothing against Vanek in any way. The only player anyone could accuse me of having anything remotely resembling a vendetta against is Leino.

I'd trade Vanek for Hjalmarsson and McNeill. Add in Adam, who Chicago fans like a lot, and Kruger, who fills a defensive center need for Buffalo, and I'm faxing the paperwork. I think McNeill is going to end up on the wing and turn into a pretty decent power forward. Hjalmarsson can play with Myers, and Kruger in between Leino and Pominville would be a good two-way line.
some people show their lack of awareness about players around the league quite often... freddie is one of them.

hammer-myers rool:

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08-25-2012, 04:57 PM
  #92
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some people show their lack of awareness about players around the league quite often... freddie is one of them.

hammer-myers rool:
And I love how "according to you Sekera was the best defenseman". Hard facts and stats mean nothing. So pitiful. The research and debate was a very good thread you made. But some must have skipped over or choose to ignore evidence and facts. Hey, they may make a good politician some day


Edit: wait wait wait, Freddie is now Layne? I was wondering why he was on my "list". Makes sense now.

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08-25-2012, 04:59 PM
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I seriously dont get why people have a hatred for goal scorers around here, in other news, is it likely we will be able to cut leino loose when new cba is done?

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08-25-2012, 05:42 PM
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I have no problems with the Sabres offering Doan a contract. The cap hit would likely be a negative in the last year or two of the contract, but it might be a good risk to take.

The Doan saga has gone on for so long that popular (and less popular) music lyrics have to be used to express fan's emotions.


Doan, Doan you want me... Human League

Doan come around here no more. Tom Petty


Any other favorites?


Last edited by Ron C.: 08-26-2012 at 11:29 AM. Reason: Wrong artist
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08-25-2012, 06:16 PM
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Some embarrassingly dumb posts in this thread, most from the same source.

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08-25-2012, 07:33 PM
  #96
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I have no problems with the Sabres offering Doan a contract. The cap hit would likely be a negative in the last year or two of the contract, but it might be a good risk to take.

The Doan saga has gone on for so long that popular (and less popular) music lyrics have to be used to express fan's emotions.


Doan, Doan you want me... Soft Cell

Doan come around here no more. Tom Petty


Any other favorites?
Doan't you forget about me

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08-25-2012, 07:50 PM
  #97
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Not a big fan of Hjalmarsson.

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08-25-2012, 08:37 PM
  #98
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Not a big fan of Hjalmarsson.
Pominville hit?

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08-25-2012, 08:39 PM
  #99
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Doan't cry for me jan hrdina

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08-25-2012, 09:37 PM
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Pominville hit?
Not as huge on his game as y'all are, apparently.

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