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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Team Staff Salary Cuts & Layoffs (MOD: and local city impacts from lockout)

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Old
08-25-2012, 06:06 PM
  #26
rojac
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Originally Posted by King Lui View Post
You realize almost any industry can have a work stoppage, right? As long as there is an organized union, there is the possibility.
Right. My point would go for anyone in such an industry.

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These people working for the organization are held hostage to the owners and players right now. They have absolutely no say, yet their careers are at stake. They're being squeezed in the middle. They also had to proceed as normal and prepare for the entire season, in the event that there was/is a small chance the season happens. So while they may lose ~4 months of work, they still had to do all the necessary work (if not more with contingency plans) to prepare for a regular or sudden launch.
So? They chose to work in the industry. If they didn't realize the risk, they were being foolish.

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As a fan, you may lose a season of entertainment, but as an employee, they may lose their career.
So, why should I feel sorry for someone who gambled that their career, in an industry that has had multiple work stoppages, wouldn't be affected by a work stoppage and lost?

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08-25-2012, 06:19 PM
  #27
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So, why should I feel sorry for someone who gambled that their career, in an industry that has had multiple work stoppages, wouldn't be affected by a work stoppage and lost?
It is called empathy. If you don't have it, you should be talking to a professional about that.

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08-25-2012, 06:31 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
Right. My point would go for anyone in such an industry.



So? They chose to work in the industry. If they didn't realize the risk, they were being foolish.



So, why should I feel sorry for someone who gambled that their career, in an industry that has had multiple work stoppages, wouldn't be affected by a work stoppage and lost?
Your entire viewpoint is misguided on the premise that average joes have a wide variety of choices for well paying jobs with little risk.

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08-25-2012, 07:42 PM
  #29
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Some people only care about themselves with little consideration for others. Fortunately things tend to come full circle eventually, and these people end up getting taught a valuable lesson.

I hope these owners think long and hard before they make their cuts. All this money and in the end its the little guy without recourse and the fans who are punished most.

There are far to many selfish ****** in the world. rant over

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08-25-2012, 09:59 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Congo View Post
It is called empathy. If you don't have it, you should be talking to a professional about that.
Well, I have the basic "gosh that's too bad" sympathy that I have for anyone who has a setback in life but I don't see a need for anymore than that in this case. It is not an unexpected outcome of working for a pro sports team.

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08-25-2012, 10:04 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
Your entire viewpoint is misguided on the premise that average joes have a wide variety of choices for well paying jobs with little risk.
Perhaps. But don't you think if someone knows their job might go away, then that person should make preparations for that possibility?

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08-25-2012, 10:07 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Thugice View Post
All this money and in the end its the little guy without recourse and the fans who are punished most.
Are fans really punished that much? Perhaps the overly obsessed ones. I suspect an awful lot of fans will miss NHL hockey a bit while it's and then watch it again when it comes back. Is it really that much different than, say, your favorite TV series taking a year off?

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08-25-2012, 10:17 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojac View Post
Well, I have the basic "gosh that's too bad" sympathy that I have for anyone who has a setback in life but I don't see a need for anymore than that in this case. It is not an unexpected outcome of working for a pro sports team.
Losing a job is not a setback in life? Good grief...


It's also not an unexpected outcome for being a teacher, nurse, doctor, fire fighters, police officer, assembly worker, pilot, autoworker, professor - heck you can name pretty much any profession you want. These are all professions that are directly affected by unexpected or expected work stoppages. It doesn't mean you can't feel empathy for their situation. These people have no input to negotiations. They can't vote to get back to work and make sure hockey is played in October. They are held hostage in all of this you realize?

I sure hope you have a lot more "sympathy" in real life as you say than what you're exhibiting here on this forum.

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Perhaps. But don't you think if someone knows their job might go away, then that person should make preparations for that possibility?
What would you have done in the situation then?

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08-25-2012, 11:08 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
Perhaps. But don't you think if someone knows their job might go away, then that person should make preparations for that possibility?
Who says they weren't?

And who says they have many options to begin with? People act like any adversity in the workplace can easily be solved.

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Old
08-25-2012, 11:53 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by King Lui View Post
Losing a job is not a setback in life? Good grief...
I said it was a setback and that I had the basic sympathy that I have for anyone who has such a setback

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It's also not an unexpected outcome for being a teacher, nurse, doctor, fire fighters, police officer, assembly worker, pilot, autoworker, professor - heck you can name pretty much any profession you want. These are all professions that are directly affected by unexpected or expected work stoppages. It doesn't mean you can't feel empathy for their situation. These people have no input to negotiations. They can't vote to get back to work and make sure hockey is played in October. They are held hostage in all of this you realize?
Well, duh. Of course, I realize they have no say. But anybody who works in a NHL-related profession should have realized that a lockout on September 15, 2012 was likely for the past several years. So, they should have set money aside to be ready for it. Either that or leave and get a job in another field.

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I sure hope you have a lot more "sympathy" in real life as you say than what you're exhibiting here on this forum.
Yes, it's too bad. Nobody should have to go through it, but it's not like this was some kind of unforeseen tragedy.


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What would you have done in the situation then?
As I said above, make sure that I had money set aside based on the assumption I would end up out of work for at least 3 or 4 months. Either that or get a job in a different field.

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08-26-2012, 12:48 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojac View Post
I said it was a setback and that I had the basic sympathy that I have for anyone who has such a setback



Well, duh. Of course, I realize they have no say. But anybody who works in a NHL-related profession should have realized that a lockout on September 15, 2012 was likely for the past several years. So, they should have set money aside to be ready for it. Either that or leave and get a job in another field.



Yes, it's too bad. Nobody should have to go through it, but it's not like this was some kind of unforeseen tragedy.


As I said above, make sure that I had money set aside based on the assumption I would end up out of work for at least 3 or 4 months. Either that or get a job in a different field.
You mean like not pay the rent or buy groceries for a while to save up? You talk like people should just stop jetting off to the Caribbean three times a year and saving 4 months salary is no biggie.

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08-26-2012, 01:28 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by King Lui View Post
Most of the employees probably make $35-60K per year if they aren't an executive. The industry is generally a hack for paying unless you're at the very top. Most are not "well off".
This is the most important post in this whole thread so far.

Also, know that in many cases, it's much closer to the $35k mark than the $60k mark.

If you're not an exec, working for an NHL team pays peanuts. In many cases, jobs that would otherwise be indeterminate full time gigs are often contract work, or even classified as "part time" so as to avoid paying extras/ benefits. People need to know this before slamming employees who "didn't see it coming" or "should have known better to work in a field with possible work stoppages" or some other insulting, degrading comment about how stupid people are for not finding jobs with guaranteed wages that pay enough that a family with multiple kids can both get by as well as have enough left over at the end of the month to save enough money that they can not draw a salary have a drastically reduced salary for months on end.

Jobs are hard to find sometimes. Good jobs with nice benefits and competitive wages are even harder to find. Accept that fact, or stay out of the discussion.

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08-26-2012, 01:58 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
You mean like not pay the rent or buy groceries for a while to save up? You talk like people should just stop jetting off to the Caribbean three times a year and saving 4 months salary is no biggie.
Almost EVERYONE spends money that they don't HAVE to spend.

More like cutting back on things like going to the movies / bar, or cutting back on drinking / smoking.

I know tons of people who are broke and still spend money on liquor / cigarettes / drugs.

Living above your means is a very common theme in america. There's very little doubt in my mind that this is the case with NHL employees as it is with everyone else.

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08-26-2012, 03:05 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Hockey Team View Post
Almost EVERYONE spends money that they don't HAVE to spend.

More like cutting back on things like going to the movies / bar, or cutting back on drinking / smoking.

I know tons of people who are broke and still spend money on liquor / cigarettes / drugs.

Living above your means is a very common theme in america. There's very little doubt in my mind that this is the case with NHL employees as it is with everyone else.
That's because your reference point is most likely your little bubble-sphere of a life, where most friends are single or not married.

What if you are trying to raise a family? Chances are, you're not blowing your money on liquor/cigarettes.

PS - for those people actually spending SIGNIFICANT money on cigarettes/drugs/alcohol - it's most likely because they are addicted. So, simply just pulling back and kicking the habit isn't exactly the easiest thing either.

Anyways, can't wait 'til some of you move off your parents dime, it will be a rude wakeup call if you're all expecting the lifestyle and careers you seem to be hinting at in this thread.

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08-26-2012, 03:48 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by King Lui View Post
That's because your reference point is most likely your little bubble-sphere of a life, where most friends are single or not married.

What if you are trying to raise a family? Chances are, you're not blowing your money on liquor/cigarettes.

PS - for those people actually spending SIGNIFICANT money on cigarettes/drugs/alcohol - it's most likely because they are addicted. So, simply just pulling back and kicking the habit isn't exactly the easiest thing either.

Anyways, can't wait 'til some of you move off your parents dime, it will be a rude wakeup call if you're all expecting the lifestyle and careers you seem to be hinting at in this thread.
I know people who are broke and who go to starbucks every day. I also know a guy who made 6 figures and was still living paycheck to paycheck because him and his family were stupid about how they spent their money (and his family was just a wife & one child, a 200K salary is more then enough to support that). I also know people who get by on a minimum wage job.

Getting addicted to drugs/alcohol/cigarettes is a choice you made at some point in your life. I've kicked a pretty serious habit of my own so I know just how hard it is. Since getting addicted was a choice someone made I think it's perfectly fair to hold them accountable for it. Having kids you can't afford to pay for is also a poor life choice many people make.

And I moved off my "parent's dime" 8 years ago when I was 18, so I'm pretty sure I have a good grip on the real world.

If you're living paycheck to paycheck in any job then you have what's coming to you if/when you lose it.

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08-27-2012, 07:45 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Hockey Team View Post
I know people who are broke and who go to starbucks every day. I also know a guy who made 6 figures and was still living paycheck to paycheck because him and his family were stupid about how they spent their money (and his family was just a wife & one child, a 200K salary is more then enough to support that). I also know people who get by on a minimum wage job.

Getting addicted to drugs/alcohol/cigarettes is a choice you made at some point in your life. I've kicked a pretty serious habit of my own so I know just how hard it is. Since getting addicted was a choice someone made I think it's perfectly fair to hold them accountable for it. Having kids you can't afford to pay for is also a poor life choice many people make.

And I moved off my "parent's dime" 8 years ago when I was 18, so I'm pretty sure I have a good grip on the real world.

If you're living paycheck to paycheck in any job then you have what's coming to you if/when you lose it.
Just about the most heartless thing anyone has ever said in the history of these boards, I'd have to guess.

You say you have a grip on "the real world", and then in the very next sentence, you let this gem fly that proves without a shadow of a doubt that you have absolutely no grip whatsoever on anything even remotely resembling the real world.

+1 to my ignore list...

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08-27-2012, 10:28 AM
  #42
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The ****, I'd say most people rely on their next paycheck to get through the next round of bills and living expenses. If you can just go without getting paid for weeks or months, more power to you.

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08-27-2012, 10:38 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Realm View Post
How nice. You can leave your job and not get paid....but when we NEED you you can come back and take a pay cut possibly.
Some people who have other short term opportunities/projects on the table wouldn't mind that... Maybe work as a consultant lined up, renovate a house, write a book, travel, etc.

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08-27-2012, 12:37 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
The ****, I'd say most people rely on their next paycheck to get through the next round of bills and living expenses. If you can just go without getting paid for weeks or months, more power to you.
This is true, but that's not because most people are spending all their money on necessities, it's because most people don't know how to manage their money. For a lot of people it's just being flat out lazy that costs them money, like buying groceries at a convenience store at a far higher price then going to a supermarket a little bit further away.

My parents used to own a liquor store where the majority of the customer base were people who lived paycheck to paycheck. There were people who were on food stamps who spent it on liquor / cigarettes / lottery tickets.

I'm sorry, but I believe people should be accountable for the situation that they're in. If you're living paycheck to paycheck and spending a dime on crap like smoking, then you don't deserve any sympathy when you lose your job and have no money.

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08-27-2012, 12:57 PM
  #45
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I wonder how the employees feel about the players offer and if they have any resentment?
If I understood correctly doesn't the players offer try to impose limitations on Team employee salaries?

I wonder if I was a trainer for a team and how I'd feel if the players who make millions were trying to pitch a deal that I couldn't have a raise (unless we take salary from your assistant) because the team is up against its non-player costs. Or even worse come out of that deal finding out all employees had to take a 25% wage cut to cut under the non-player cap.



Am I understanding that correctly in the players proposal?

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08-27-2012, 01:36 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Hockey Team View Post
This is true, but that's not because most people are spending all their money on necessities, it's because most people don't know how to manage their money. For a lot of people it's just being flat out lazy that costs them money, like buying groceries at a convenience store at a far higher price then going to a supermarket a little bit further away.

My parents used to own a liquor store where the majority of the customer base were people who lived paycheck to paycheck. There were people who were on food stamps who spent it on liquor / cigarettes / lottery tickets.

I'm sorry, but I believe people should be accountable for the situation that they're in. If you're living paycheck to paycheck and spending a dime on crap like smoking, then you don't deserve any sympathy when you lose your job and have no money.
Well, I personally live in Illinois which makes even New York look like Mexico. Everything here is the most expensive in the country. Taxes are skyrocketing, gas is always the highest in the country (world too?, not sure). They pull you over all of the time now too. What are we supposed to do when they keep suffocating us with a higher cost to maintain what we already had? You can't hold anyone accountable for this crap except the corrupt government. Fact is, we'd all have more money saved up (if we were smart, like you said) if it wasn't be stolen from us by a de facto mafia in Chicago. I agree, you pay for the extras, that's money you could have saved for tough times but where I don't agree is that you are in total control because when the government wants more, they take more.

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08-27-2012, 01:52 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Well, I personally live in Illinois which makes even New York look like Mexico. Everything here is the most expensive in the country. Taxes are skyrocketing, gas is always the highest in the country (world too?, not sure). They pull you over all of the time now too. What are we supposed to do when they keep suffocating us with a higher cost to maintain what we already had? You can't hold anyone accountable for this crap except the corrupt government. Fact is, we'd all have more money saved up (if we were smart, like you said) if it wasn't be stolen from us by a de facto mafia in Chicago. I agree, you pay for the extras, that's money you could have saved for tough times but where I don't agree is that you are in total control because when the government wants more, they take more.
I live in manhattan, so I know about the cost of living increases. My rent went up 12% last year, if it goes up more then I have to either work harder to earn or move to a cheaper place.
Sometimes you can't maintain what you already have, and have to cut back on things you're used to, or move to a cheaper place when things change.

Moving back is a tough pill to swallow for most people, which is why people don't do it until they're completely broke.

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08-27-2012, 08:19 PM
  #48
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I'm not defending the people responsible for the lockout. They're doing this out of greed plain and simple. I'm just saying the employees are also responsible for their own lives. It's not like pay cuts / reduced hours / layoffs are coming as any surprise. The lockout discussions have been ongoing since the last season started.


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08-28-2012, 08:28 AM
  #49
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and you know this how? Flames were one of teams that were described as being heartless last time around. About 8 teams were named and shamed in how they treated their staffers during and after the last lock out
I think you are mistaken. The Flames own the Calgary Hitmen. During the lockout year Average attendance was 13,000 and sellouts for 3 rounds of playoffs. For most building staff it was business as usual. The Saddledome is a great place to work and Ken King is a great leader.

Whether you are on the owners side or players side doesn't matter. The Flames should not be critisized for this. All they are doing is having a plan for if/when this happens. And Ken King said it is their aim to make a lockout have as little of an effect as possible. Hitmen and Roughnecks are gonna be huge this year, just watch.


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08-28-2012, 11:57 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Hockey Team View Post
This is true, but that's not because most people are spending all their money on necessities, it's because most people don't know how to manage their money. For a lot of people it's just being flat out lazy that costs them money, like buying groceries at a convenience store at a far higher price then going to a supermarket a little bit further away.

My parents used to own a liquor store where the majority of the customer base were people who lived paycheck to paycheck. There were people who were on food stamps who spent it on liquor / cigarettes / lottery tickets.

I'm sorry, but I believe people should be accountable for the situation that they're in. If you're living paycheck to paycheck and spending a dime on crap like smoking, then you don't deserve any sympathy when you lose your job and have no money.
None of the things you have mentioned so far, which might account for $10-30 a pop, have the slightest bit of relation to saving the $10,000+ a person needs to survive extended unemployment. You're talking about nickels and dimes here.

Do the math. Say a person is making $40k a year. Chances are they literally cannot afford to put away more than about $3k per year assuming they have no major life crisis during that year. $3k is roughly their pre-tax income per month. Being out of work for 4 months will cost them, pre-tax, about $12k.

Meaning they would have needed to put away money for the past 4 years non-stop with no major crisis causing them to tap into that reserve in order to survive a 4-month work stoppage. If it's more like 6 months, we're talking about saving non-stop since the last CBA was signed.

Get real. How many people can afford to save that much money for that long? And even if they did, they're facing the prospect of having that entire safety net consumed in one fell swoop, through no fault of their own. Meaning their next major life crisis is going to have no safety net.

Any way you look at it, unless they can pull from resources outside of personal savings, they're screwed.

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