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Old
08-24-2012, 05:37 PM
  #251
poetryinmotion
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Anyone seen the Cabbie T-ball segment on TSN.ca? Simmonds got a serious case of chicken legs

Prust is in it too.

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08-24-2012, 06:38 PM
  #252
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LOL he hit it like it's golf

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08-25-2012, 06:29 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
There were 9 I even listed them.


At any given time some players will regress and some will progress, even if for each individual player you expect progression, that's statistics. Think of the defensemen as dice. We have 6 players, just like a die has 6 sides. Some will end up on "1" even though the odd of "1" is only 17% per roll.

In this case, I'll point out both Gorges and Subban played 80 games last year. From that alone you expect regression in contribution, as 70 games is typical.


Kaberle can regress. Now that there are 3 offensive dmen on the team with Markov, he might not get as many opportunities.


Wrong. An injury to Subban or Gorges would be just as devastating as an injury to Markov, possibly more so.

Bouillon was a solid #5 last year for a team that finished near the top of the NHL standings and had a great GAA, unless he declines a lot in one year he should bring solid depth plus great leadership. Diaz and Emelin already showed they can be solid NHLers, so not a big risk there, if they can take a nice step forward and make a bigger impact then that's a big upgrade over the #2 and 3 pairs of last year.

So you're basically talking 2 question marks...but also 2 guys that can make a big impact if they are "right".
Every player is a question mark, because anyone might regress, and any player can be injured.

You're indirectly assuming that either every player will be healthy, or that Markov is the only one who can be injured.[/QUOTE]

If everybody on defense is an uncertainty then just about every NHLer is uncertain. Kaberle and markov are the only true question marks, the rest are like everybody in the NHL, can progress or regress or get injured.

If Markov and Subban are healthy Kaberle will get less opportunities but we won't need him to be anything more than a solid #5 guy getting easy matchups.

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08-25-2012, 06:44 AM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Every player is a question mark, because anyone might regress, and any player can be injured.

You're indirectly assuming that either every player will be healthy, or that Markov is the only one who can be injured.
If everybody on defense is an uncertainty then just about every NHLer is uncertain. Kaberle and markov are the only true question marks, the rest are like everybody in the NHL, can progress or regress or get injured.

If Markov and Subban are healthy Kaberle will get less opportunities but we won't need him to be anything more than a solid #5 guy getting easy matchups.[/QUOTE]

So PK and Gorges are solid. We can all agree on that.

Markov is a question mark

Kaberle is a question mark

Emelin is a likely top 4

Diaz hasn't proven much yet

Boo is a grizzled vet

This is our awesome defense? We have 2 top 4 defensemen and a much of question marks and bottom dwelling defensmen. Still looks pretty crappy to me.

There's no depth at all. Like DaChampion pointed out, if any one in the top 3 of Markov, PK or Gorges gets hurt, there's really no one to step up and take their minutes.

We have no big, shut shut down defensmen that we can throw in to clear the creas, to intimidate the opposition or to occasionally fight.

We have very little depth at the current moment and not much size. You'll see our smaller corp getting ground down and injured as the season rolls on, especially when playing against bigger teams who will take every opportunity to hit them when chipping and chasing or going into the corners.

Bottom line is we need a lot on the backend before we can say we have a solid group of guys back there they can take us into a deep playoff run.

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08-25-2012, 11:09 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post

So PK and Gorges are solid. We can all agree on that.

Markov is a question mark

Kaberle is a question mark

Emelin is a likely top 4

Diaz hasn't proven much yet

Boo is a grizzled vet

This is our awesome defense? We have 2 top 4 defensemen and a much of question marks and bottom dwelling defensmen. Still looks pretty crappy to me.

There's no depth at all. Like DaChampion pointed out, if any one in the top 3 of Markov, PK or Gorges gets hurt, there's really no one to step up and take their minutes.

We have no big, shut shut down defensmen that we can throw in to clear the creas, to intimidate the opposition or to occasionally fight.

We have very little depth at the current moment and not much size. You'll see our smaller corp getting ground down and injured as the season rolls on, especially when playing against bigger teams who will take every opportunity to hit them when chipping and chasing or going into the corners.

Bottom line is we need a lot on the backend before we can say we have a solid group of guys back there they can take us into a deep playoff run.
If one of Gorges Markov or Subban gets hurt, then one of Diaz Emelin or Kaberle can step into a bigger role.

People seem to forget that Diaz and Emelin acquitted themselves pretty good with 2nd pair minutes for part of the 1st half with Markov Gill Campoli and Spacek all out. That was without any NHL experience, this year they'll have a year under their belt and I expect a strong progression. Kaberle has played most of his career as a #1 or 2 guy, if he shows up in shape and focused he should be an above average #4 or 5 guy that can step up and play an extra 2-4 minutes a night for 10-12 games if needed.

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08-25-2012, 11:37 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If one of Gorges Markov or Subban gets hurt, then one of Diaz Emelin or Kaberle can step into a bigger role.

People seem to forget that Diaz and Emelin acquitted themselves pretty good with 2nd pair minutes for part of the 1st half with Markov Gill Campoli and Spacek all out. That was without any NHL experience, this year they'll have a year under their belt and I expect a strong progression. Kaberle has played most of his career as a #1 or 2 guy, if he shows up in shape and focused he should be an above average #4 or 5 guy that can step up and play an extra 2-4 minutes a night for 10-12 games if needed.
Diaz, Kaberle and Emelin are not top 3 defensemen on any team. I think you think they're better than what they actually are.

Kaberle was brought in to fill in the gap left by Markov. He didn't succeed.

Diaz is not capable of playing 15+ minutes a night against the other teams top lines. I don't care what you say. Nothing he's done last year shows he's remotely ready for that.

Emelin is the best bet there. He can and likely will be a top 4 defender. That doesn't make our defense much better than it is. We don't have a legitimate star calibre defenseman or a big, rugged shut down defemsmen. We're painfully thin on the back end with not much support or talent there. Sorry, but that's what we have right now.

Again, why do you insist on making our defense sound better than it is? It's really not that good.

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08-25-2012, 11:49 AM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If one of Gorges Markov or Subban gets hurt, then one of Diaz Emelin or Kaberle can step into a bigger role.

People seem to forget that Diaz and Emelin acquitted themselves pretty good with 2nd pair minutes for part of the 1st half with Markov Gill Campoli and Spacek all out. That was without any NHL experience, this year they'll have a year under their belt and I expect a strong progression. Kaberle has played most of his career as a #1 or 2 guy, if he shows up in shape and focused he should be an above average #4 or 5 guy that can step up and play an extra 2-4 minutes a night for 10-12 games if needed.
That's what we're saying... having one of Diaz, Kaberle, or Emelin step into top-3 minutes is what makes this unit potentially one of the worst in the league.

And given Markov's ***** knee, it's probably going to happen. I'd rather he stay healthy though so we can offload him at the deadline and rid us of the final year of his contract.

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08-25-2012, 11:56 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Diaz, Kaberle and Emelin are not top 3 defensemen on any team. I think you think they're better than what they actually are.

Kaberle was brought in to fill in the gap left by Markov. He didn't succeed.

Diaz is not capable of playing 15+ minutes a night against the other teams top lines. I don't care what you say. Nothing he's done last year shows he's remotely ready for that.

Emelin is the best bet there. He can and likely will be a top 4 defender. That doesn't make our defense much better than it is. We don't have a legitimate star calibre defenseman or a big, rugged shut down defemsmen. We're painfully thin on the back end with not much support or talent there. Sorry, but that's what we have right now.

Again, why do you insist on making our defense sound better than it is? It's really not that good.
We definitely have some question marks on defense but not lacking in talent. We have 3 guys with all-star calibre skill on defense, what other team can say that? Emelin has the potential size and mean streak to be a top shutdown d-man.

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08-25-2012, 12:02 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If everybody on defense is an uncertainty then just about every NHLer is uncertain. Kaberle and markov are the only true question marks, the rest are like everybody in the NHL, can progress or regress or get injured.

If Markov and Subban are healthy Kaberle will get less opportunities but we won't need him to be anything more than a solid #5 guy getting easy matchups.
I'll reduce my arguments to two key points:

1) Even if everybody is healthy, our defense is mediocre at best. The biggest player is 6'2" and we don't have a big player in the mould of 2007-08 Komisarek to intimidate the opposing teams, to clear the crease, etc. We're also imbalanced. Subban, Markov, and Kaberle are our three offensive dmen, and they're all passers. We don't have a good shooter in the mould of Sourray / Streit / Schneider / Bergeron / Wisniewski. Notice that with those five names I just listed we typically had the best PP in the league, and without them we typically have the worst PP in the league.

2) Our defense is very vulnerable to injury. Right now we only have 3 top-4 dmen: Markov, Subban, and Gorges. That means if any one of them is injured we'll have TWO third pairings on the ice. We may end up doing this either way for the first 20 or 30 games, as we should expect Markov to be psychologically rusty for at least that length of time. As a contrast, at the start of the 2010-2011 season we had 5 top-4 dmen: Markov, Subban, Gorges, Hamrlik, Spacek. Two of them fell to injury (which is typical), and we were in trouble, Gauthier needed to trade for Wisniewski to bail us out, which means the D was good enough to withstand 1 injury but not 2 in the absence of a trade. That superior situation was good enough for 6th place in the Eastern Conference. We are now in an inferior situation.

It's simply not true that every D-corps in the league is equally vulnerable to injury, and the contrast between 2010-2011 and 2012-2013 Habs proves this.

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08-25-2012, 12:05 PM
  #260
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You're being ridiculous DA. Subban isn't a good shot? WTF? The kid has one of the best bombs from the point. I mean yes the defence still sucks but stop underrating everyone to make a point.

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08-25-2012, 12:09 PM
  #261
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You're being ridiculous DA. Subban isn't a good shot? WTF? The kid has one of the best bombs from the point. I mean yes the defence still sucks but stop underrating everyone to make a point.
I'm not underrating anybody.

Subban may develop a good shot and become a player who can replace what we lost in Sourray / Streit / Schneider / Bergeron / Wisniewski in addition to his other fantastic attributes, but right now he has some problems with accuracy. His shooting effectiveness collapsed last year. He's a question mark at best in that role. He had a 3.4% shooting percentage. In contrast, Sourray gave us an 11.6% shooting percentage in 2006-07, Streit gave us a 7.9% shooting percentage in 2007-08, Schneider gave us a 10.9% shooting in 2008-09, etc. What those guys gave is a major missing piece on defense.

Though overall Subban is a great player and I hope we lock him up to a 6 year contract. If the rumours of the Habs trading Subban are true I expect Montreal to compete with Columbus for last place.


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08-25-2012, 12:24 PM
  #262
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Yea but in those years we had healthy Markov making great passes. Last season we had Diaz and Weber making questionable plays or Kaberle unsure what to do.

And to be honest I don't care about shooting percentage. Yes his accuracy can improve a bit, also his technique of winding up for 2 seconds could be improved but what I care about is that it is a dangerous shot and he's shown that he can terrorize on the PP with it.

Also we're talking about this in the Out of Town thread

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08-25-2012, 12:52 PM
  #263
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We definitely have some question marks on defense but not lacking in talent. We have 3 guys with all-star calibre skill on defense, what other team can say that? Emelin has the potential size and mean streak to be a top shutdown d-man.
3 All Stars defensmemn? I can't think of one.

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08-25-2012, 01:08 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I'm not underrating anybody.

Subban may develop a good shot and become a player who can replace what we lost in Sourray / Streit / Schneider / Bergeron / Wisniewski in addition to his other fantastic attributes, but right now he has some problems with accuracy. His shooting effectiveness collapsed last year. He's a question mark at best in that role. He had a 3.4% shooting percentage. In contrast, Sourray gave us an 11.6% shooting percentage in 2006-07, Streit gave us a 7.9% shooting percentage in 2007-08, Schneider gave us a 10.9% shooting in 2008-09, etc. What those guys gave is a major missing piece on defense.

Though overall Subban is a great player and I hope we lock him up to a 6 year contract. If the rumours of the Habs trading Subban are true I expect Montreal to compete with Columbus for last place.
Shooting % isn't such a dependable stat, especially with dmen (probably because of the smaller sample size than with forwards). For example, Streit's shooting percentages since coming over to the NHL are 3.85, 9.8, 7.88, 10.67, 5.88, 4.7. All over the map. Same goes for the Wiz, he's been everywhere from 2.05 to 8.54. I wouldn't assume Subban's 3.4 establishes his career value on the PP.

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08-25-2012, 01:11 PM
  #265
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Yea but in those years we had healthy Markov making great passes. Last season we had Diaz and Weber making questionable plays or Kaberle unsure what to do.

And to be honest I don't care about shooting percentage. Yes his accuracy can improve a bit, also his technique of winding up for 2 seconds could be improved but what I care about is that it is a dangerous shot and he's shown that he can terrorize on the PP with it.

Also we're talking about this in the Out of Town thread
Marc-Andre Bergeron and James Wisniewski were not receiving passes from Markov. The passing player was Hamrlik, for whom Kaberle and Subban are comparable in that department. I remember when we added those two, even without Markov, the PP effectiveness skyrocketed.


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08-25-2012, 01:24 PM
  #266
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Shooting % isn't such a dependable stat, especially with dmen (probably because of the smaller sample size than with forwards). For example, Streit's shooting percentages since coming over to the NHL are 3.85, 9.8, 7.88, 10.67, 5.88, 4.7. All over the map. Same goes for the Wiz, he's been everywhere from 2.05 to 8.54. I wouldn't assume Subban's 3.4 establishes his career value on the PP.
He may very well improve but he's at best a question mark.

If we do the most rational thing, which is to extrapolate last year's performance, then our defense is lacking a player in the mould of Sorray / Streit / Schneider / Bergeron / Wisniewski. It's one of two weak points on defense that may plague us even if we have a miracle season with no major injuries on defense.

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08-25-2012, 02:08 PM
  #267
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We definitely have some question marks on defense but not lacking in talent. We have 3 guys with all-star calibre skill on defense, what other team can say that? Emelin has the potential size and mean streak to be a top shutdown d-man.
Arguably one of the most homeristic posts I've read all summer. And that's saying something.

3 All-Star caliber dmen? LMAO.

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08-25-2012, 02:41 PM
  #268
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Shooting % isn't such a dependable stat, especially with dmen (probably because of the smaller sample size than with forwards). For example, Streit's shooting percentages since coming over to the NHL are 3.85, 9.8, 7.88, 10.67, 5.88, 4.7. All over the map. Same goes for the Wiz, he's been everywhere from 2.05 to 8.54. I wouldn't assume Subban's 3.4 establishes his career value on the PP.
Precisely.

Subban doesn't have a big enough sample size to assess this but all players have an avg sh% to which they always hover around. The 3.4% you see is only one end of the spectrum.

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08-25-2012, 03:21 PM
  #269
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3 All Stars defensmemn? I can't think of one.
Then you must have forgotten Markov and Subban.

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08-25-2012, 03:47 PM
  #270
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Then you must have forgotten Markov and Subban.
Markov WAS an All Star now we hope he just won't get hurt. PK can be great but he's not All Star calibre just yet.

You can't think of 10 better defensemen in the NHL than Markov and PK?

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08-25-2012, 04:04 PM
  #271
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That's what we're saying... having one of Diaz, Kaberle, or Emelin step into top-3 minutes is what makes this unit potentially one of the worst in the league.

And given Markov's ***** knee, it's probably going to happen. I'd rather he stay healthy though so we can offload him at the deadline and rid us of the final year of his contract.
Take out a top defensemen or two from about any defense in the league and you'll have an average guy playing top3 minutes.

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08-25-2012, 05:24 PM
  #272
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Markov WAS an All Star now we hope he just won't get hurt. PK can be great but he's not All Star calibre just yet.

You can't think of 10 better defensemen in the NHL than Markov and PK?
You'd need to think of 15 better defensemen.
Pronger's career is over.
Lidstrom retired.

Shea Weber
Ryan Suter
Zdeno Chara.

Those are 3 names. Karlsson won the Norris but there's no way in hell I am taking him over Markov or PK, because they are both way better rounded and multi-dimensional compared to Karlsson who is just a 4th forward on the ice all times and doesn't even play the Penalty Kill.

Pietrangelo
Letang
Yandle
Keith
Seabrook
Doughty.

There's the next tier.

Anything outside of that would not pique my interest for a one-on-one trade.

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08-25-2012, 05:34 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
You'd need to think of 15 better defensemen.
Pronger's career is over.
Lidstrom retired.

Shea Weber
Ryan Suter
Zdeno Chara.

Those are 3 names. Karlsson won the Norris but there's no way in hell I am taking him over Markov or PK, because they are both way better rounded and multi-dimensional compared to Karlsson who is just a 4th forward on the ice all times and doesn't even play the Penalty Kill.

Pietrangelo
Letang
Yandle
Keith
Seabrook
Doughty.

There's the next tier.

Anything outside of that would not pique my interest for a one-on-one trade.
Really?

John Carlson, Karl Alzner, Victor Hedman, Ekman-Larson, Ryan McDonagh, Kevin Shattenkirk, are each players I would swap for Markov in a 1-for-1 trade, but it's unfair because they're all younger.

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08-25-2012, 05:43 PM
  #274
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Really?

John Carlson, Karl Alzner, Victor Hedman, Ekman-Larson, Ryan McDonagh, Kevin Shattenkirk, are each players I would swap for Markov in a 1-for-1 trade, but it's unfair because they're all younger.
The only one out of that group that has the potential to be what Markov has been is Oliver Ekman-Larsson. McDonagh is a stud but he'll never run the PP and be the puck mover that Markov has been. Carlson is solid all around but doesn't excel in the offensive side of the puck and would argue he is no where near as smart positionally or with his stick as Markov.

Alzner is strictly shut down, one dimensional. Hedman's offensive upside is a question mark to me. Shattenkirk's had a nice debut to his career, we will see if he can round out his game.

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08-26-2012, 08:19 AM
  #275
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
You'd need to think of 15 better defensemen.
Pronger's career is over.
Lidstrom retired.

Shea Weber
Ryan Suter
Zdeno Chara.

Those are 3 names. Karlsson won the Norris but there's no way in hell I am taking him over Markov or PK, because they are both way better rounded and multi-dimensional compared to Karlsson who is just a 4th forward on the ice all times and doesn't even play the Penalty Kill.

Pietrangelo
Letang
Yandle
Keith
Seabrook
Doughty.

There's the next tier.

Anything outside of that would not pique my interest for a one-on-one trade.
It's hard to take you seriously when you make a comments like this. it reeks of Homerism. If Karlsson was a Hab, everyone on this board would be saying how he's the next Lidstrom and you would trade him for Markov? Really?!

I hope Markov has a great bounce back year but no matter how good it is, he won't win a Norris like Karlsson just did. Neither will PK.

My point is that from the list you just gave and what's actually still available in the NHL right now, there are defensemen who had better years last year, who will continue to grow and who are better than PK and Markov whether they pique your interest or not. We have some huge holes to fill on defense and even if Markov and PK were the two top defensemen in the league.

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