HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > International Tournaments
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

World cup in junior hockey teams

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-26-2012, 03:49 PM
  #501
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,620
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2525 View Post
I can't speak for Europe but you're dead wrong about the USA. High end competitive youth hockey in the US is definitely on par with Canada.
High end competitive hockey in the US is really limited to a few States - Minnesota, Michigan, Illinois, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and a few of the smaller border states (e.g, North Dakota). In Minnesota, where hockey programs are among the largest in the US, the focus of youth hockey is high school teams, who have strict rules limiting the months of the year when they are allowed to participate. There has been expansion of participation in the Southern States where kids have to rely on indoor ice to learn to skate, but that expansion is not producing many top quality players. The vast bulk of the best American players come from those core States.

Yakushev72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2012, 03:57 PM
  #502
Zine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,096
vCash: 500
Congrats to Sudbury for the well earned victory!!


A few observations:

1. There was a lot of parity in this tourney (everybody was beating everybody). I hope this bids well for the future of this event.
2. Omsk **** the bed. Outplayed by non playoff MHL level teams. Horrible showing.
3. Fantastic effort and result from Waterloo. I wasn't expecting much from the USHL representative. Well done.

Zine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2012, 04:41 PM
  #503
cska78
Registered User
 
cska78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 11,164
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to cska78 Send a message via Yahoo to cska78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Congrats to Sudbury for the well earned victory!!


A few observations:

1. There was a lot of parity in this tourney (everybody was beating everybody). I hope this bids well for the future of this event.
2. Omsk **** the bed. Outplayed by non playoff MHL level teams. Horrible showing.
3. Fantastic effort and result from Waterloo. I wasn't expecting much from the USHL representative. Well done.
I think many factors played to Omsk's disadvantage:
1) meaningless low-level tournament in Boston, where due to MHL officials lies guys didn't realize they were playing the best of the worst in the states, plus all the travel and time diff.
2) home walls' pressure
3) wasting energy when there's no need to, running up the score against norway for example.

cska78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2012, 04:43 PM
  #504
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,620
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Congrats to Sudbury for the well earned victory!!


A few observations:

1. There was a lot of parity in this tourney (everybody was beating everybody). I hope this bids well for the future of this event.
2. Omsk **** the bed. Outplayed by non playoff MHL level teams. Horrible showing.
3. Fantastic effort and result from Waterloo. I wasn't expecting much from the USHL representative. Well done.
I've got to agree!

Yakushev72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2012, 04:43 PM
  #505
Xokkeu
Registered User
 
Xokkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Frozen
Country: Antarctica
Posts: 4,657
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
High end competitive hockey in the US is really limited to a few States - Minnesota, Michigan, Illinois, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and a few of the smaller border states (e.g, North Dakota). In Minnesota, where hockey programs are among the largest in the US, the focus of youth hockey is high school teams, who have strict rules limiting the months of the year when they are allowed to participate. There has been expansion of participation in the Southern States where kids have to rely on indoor ice to learn to skate, but that expansion is not producing many top quality players. The vast bulk of the best American players come from those core States.
This is simply not true. Bobby Ryan played most of his youth hockey in LA. Jonathan Blum a first round pick grew up in California. Beau Bennett from California was a first round pick in 2010 along with Emerson Etem. Stephan Noesen was born and raised in Texas. Seth Jones was born in Texas and grew up in Colorado.

True the bulk of American players come from the core states, but the US will likely have a 4th straight year (2013) of first round picks from non traditional markets. I suppose top quality players can be defined in different ways, but being a first round selection is a pretty good qualification for that especially at 19-20.

I'd also say that you missed a major state in your list of core states and that's New York and frankly New Jersey over Rhode Island. Heck, Connecticut over Rhode Island.

Xokkeu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2012, 07:26 PM
  #506
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,620
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
I think many factors played to Omsk's disadvantage:
1) meaningless low-level tournament in Boston, where due to MHL officials lies guys didn't realize they were playing the best of the worst in the states, plus all the travel and time diff.
2) home walls' pressure
3) wasting energy when there's no need to, running up the score against norway for example.
I saw your post talking about the tournament in Boston that Omsk participated in, but the timing of it didn't register with me at the time. To travel all the way from Omsk to Boston, participate in a relatively meaningless tournament, then turn around and travel all the way back to Omsk, 8 time zones away, to defend the World Cup, is absolutely crazy. It is unbelievable that they would put their kids through that. At a minimum, it explains how they could lose to Shinnik on home ice.

The final score, 7-3, belies the fact that Omsk came very close to tying Waterloo and taking them to OT. If you watched, you know that Omsk scored with, as I recall, 2:27 left in the game to make the score 4-3. Then, for some reason, while his team was rallying and pressure Waterloo's net, the Omsk coach decided to pull his goalie for an extra attacker with 2:27 left. I thought "what the hell is he doing,?" That's too soon to pull the goalie - give them at least another minute to see if they can score at full strength without giving up an empty net goal. Sure enough, about 45 seconds later, they gave up an empty netter. I stopped watching at that point, but somehow, within the last minute, they found a way to give up 2 more goals. The coach pulled the plug on them with a bonehead decision that took them out of an otherwise competitive situation.

Yakushev72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2012, 07:29 PM
  #507
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,620
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
This is simply not true. Bobby Ryan played most of his youth hockey in LA. Jonathan Blum a first round pick grew up in California. Beau Bennett from California was a first round pick in 2010 along with Emerson Etem. Stephan Noesen was born and raised in Texas. Seth Jones was born in Texas and grew up in Colorado.

True the bulk of American players come from the core states, but the US will likely have a 4th straight year (2013) of first round picks from non traditional markets. I suppose top quality players can be defined in different ways, but being a first round selection is a pretty good qualification for that especially at 19-20.

I'd also say that you missed a major state in your list of core states and that's New York and frankly New Jersey over Rhode Island. Heck, Connecticut over Rhode Island.
True, but anecdotal, as you acknowledge.

Yakushev72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2012, 10:21 PM
  #508
xyz1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 33
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
In Minnesota, where hockey programs are among the largest in the US, the focus of youth hockey is high school teams, who have strict rules limiting the months of the year when they are allowed to participate.
Just a quick thought on this: while the Minnesota state high school league has limits on how much time players can spend with their high school teams and coaches, this is a bit misleading, as they don't control what players do between the end of the high school season in March and the beginning of the next season the following November. With only a few exceptions - mostly kids who are still playing multiple sports - the top Minnesota kids are skating and training intensively year-round, at private facilities, with AAA teams, and in the Minnesota Elite League (a league in which all the top Minnesota kids who are staying in high school and not playing junior compete in the fall).

And I don't see how anyone can dispute that the expansion of hockey into nontraditional geographic regions is, slowly but surely, producing a few top-level players. Not a huge number - after all, there still aren't all that many players total in those regions, so you can't really expect a ton of pro level players to come out of them - but Seth Jones grew up in Dallas and is expected to be a top three pick next year, Nic Kerdiles grew up in LA and was the 36th pick last year, and Jason Zucker grew up in Las Vegas and is considered one of the Wild's top prospects. Twenty years ago people would have laughed at you if you told them NHL prospects would come from any of those areas.

xyz1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2012, 10:29 PM
  #509
Zine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,096
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by espo View Post
Yet more proof "overall body of work" means nothing.

Way to go Sudbury, the cream rises to the top.


You showed them all you were the best.

It means something when put in context.

Sudbury was best when it mattered most (a deservingly earned ttitle), but this tourney showed that representatives from various junior leagues were all on the same level, and not above getting beaten on any given day.

Zine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2012, 11:07 PM
  #510
espo*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,453
vCash: 500
While I don't disagree with the meat of your argument I do disagree with the insinuation that if you win the top prize it can be cheapened for surious reasons.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
It means something when put in context.

Sudbury was best when it mattered most (a deservingly earned ttitle), but this tourney showed that representatives from various junior leagues were all on the same level, and not above getting beaten on any given day.

espo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2012, 11:55 PM
  #511
Zine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,096
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by espo View Post
While I don't disagree with the meat of your argument I do disagree with the insinuation that if you win the top prize it can be cheapened for surious reasons.

Again, depends on how you look at it.

I guess one could consider it cheapened if you're into chest thumping "we're no.1".......but I generally reserve that for WC, olympics, league titles, etc.

But for an interleague pre-season exhibition, I think it more important to look holistically at how teams and players fared; especially when trying to assess relative strength of the leagues teams represent.

Zine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2012, 12:41 AM
  #512
espo*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,453
vCash: 500
I know how much I adore winning...............a lot.


Thanks Sudbury!.....................you're one hell of a swell bunch of guys!

espo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2012, 10:10 AM
  #513
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,620
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by xyz1 View Post
Just a quick thought on this: while the Minnesota state high school league has limits on how much time players can spend with their high school teams and coaches, this is a bit misleading, as they don't control what players do between the end of the high school season in March and the beginning of the next season the following November. With only a few exceptions - mostly kids who are still playing multiple sports - the top Minnesota kids are skating and training intensively year-round, at private facilities, with AAA teams, and in the Minnesota Elite League (a league in which all the top Minnesota kids who are staying in high school and not playing junior compete in the fall).

And I don't see how anyone can dispute that the expansion of hockey into nontraditional geographic regions is, slowly but surely, producing a few top-level players. Not a huge number - after all, there still aren't all that many players total in those regions, so you can't really expect a ton of pro level players to come out of them - but Seth Jones grew up in Dallas and is expected to be a top three pick next year, Nic Kerdiles grew up in LA and was the 36th pick last year, and Jason Zucker grew up in Las Vegas and is considered one of the Wild's top prospects. Twenty years ago people would have laughed at you if you told them NHL prospects would come from any of those areas.
'

No question about it. Hockey in Dallas has exploded since 1993 when the Stars arrived, and a flood of new rinks were built. What holds it back is that there is no outdoor ice in the Dallas area---any skating has to be done on indoor ice. Generally, only very affluent kids can afford to play hockey in Dallas and pay for all the international travel, etc. Football, basketball, baseball and soccer now dominate the competition for attracting the best athletes in Texas. I agree that there has been a significant increase, but I don't think the floodgates will open any time soon.

Yakushev72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2012, 10:19 AM
  #514
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,620
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by espo View Post
I know how much I adore winning...............a lot.


Thanks Sudbury!.....................you're one hell of a swell bunch of guys!
Zine's point is that the teams in this tournament were extremely evenly matched, and that Sudbury emerged with a narrow win. A win is a win, and congratulations to the Sudbury kids for pulling it off. You are a flamer, so you aren't going to consider any arguments that doesn't end in, "We're No. 1, and Europeans suck!" Have fun with it!

Yakushev72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2012, 11:14 AM
  #515
Mr Writer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,192
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Zine's point is that the teams in this tournament were extremely evenly matched, and that Sudbury emerged with a narrow win. A win is a win, and congratulations to the Sudbury kids for pulling it off. You are a flamer, so you aren't going to consider any arguments that doesn't end in, "We're No. 1, and Europeans suck!" Have fun with it!
Give it up! If you want to rewind a little in this thread to last year's tournament there were posting with guotes like "Krasniya Armiya is schooling the competition"... and not a WHISPER of a response from anybody... apparently Russians like beating their chest over beating up on some lesser competition, but those dastardly Canadians savoring their victory! How dare they! Too funny!
Canada Number 1 Always was and forever will be.

Mr Writer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2012, 12:05 PM
  #516
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,620
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Give it up! If you want to rewind a little in this thread to last year's tournament there were posting with guotes like "Krasniya Armiya is schooling the competition"... and not a WHISPER of a response from anybody... apparently Russians like beating their chest over beating up on some lesser competition, but those dastardly Canadians savoring their victory! How dare they! Too funny!
Canada Number 1 Always was and forever will be.
As for Canada's rank in the hockey world, my opinion is slightly different than yours. 50years ago, Canada was unchallenged as the worlds No. 1 hockey power. Obviously, other countries have now caught up, and most international tournaments are a toss-up. Canada rarely wins one where they can't have all of their best players on board (e.g., WC), which reinforces my position. My personal opinion is that it is just a matter of time before Russia finally overtakes Canada fully and becomes recognized as the No. 1 hockey power in the world. A combination of factors, one of which being population, will likely converge to push Russia ahead. They are not far behind now, if at all. In addition, I can see the potential for the United States to ultimately catch and surpass Canada as well. So go ahead and continue to chant "we're No. 1," but I wouldn't be surprised if, below the surface, you don't see the writing on the wall.


Last edited by stv11: 08-28-2012 at 03:27 AM.
Yakushev72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2012, 12:26 PM
  #517
Zine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,096
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Canada Number 1 Always was and forever will be.

I'd say Canada is (and always will be) the #1 hockey power and/or best hockey country. Nobody can compete with them in terms of players produced, infrastructure, popularity, passion, etc., etc. When you think of hockey, you think of Canada. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean they have (or always have had) the best national team. These are two different things.

Zine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2012, 12:40 PM
  #518
Mr Writer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,192
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
As for Canada's rank in the hockey world, my opinion is slightly different than yours. 50years ago, Canada was unchallenged as the worlds No. 1 hockey power. Obviously, other countries have now caught up, and most international tournaments are a toss-up. Canada rarely wins one where they can't have all of their best players on board (e.g., WC), which reinforces my position. My personal opinion is that it is just a matter of time before Russia finally overtakes Canada fully and becomes recognized as the No. 1 hockey power in the world. A combination of factors, one of which being population, will likely converge to push Russia ahead. They are not far behind now, if at all. In addition, I can see the potential for the United States to ultimately catch and surpass Canada as well. So go ahead and continue to chant "we're No. 1," but I wouldn't be surprised if, below the surface, you don't see the writing on the wall.


It's what fans do, save your arguments for when real insults start getting hurled around...why people get their dandruff up over the silliest comments is always most perplexing... best to keep your gunpowder dry for another fight. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of them ...


Last edited by stv11: 08-28-2012 at 03:28 AM. Reason: Edited quoted post
Mr Writer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2012, 12:47 PM
  #519
Mr Writer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,192
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
I'd say Canada is (and always will be) the #1 hockey power and/or best hockey country. Nobody can compete with them in terms of players produced, infrastructure, popularity, passion, etc., etc. When you think of hockey, you think of Canada. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean they have (or always have had) the best national team. These are two different things.
Sport is sport..on certain days you just don't have it...I'm never one to go overboard over a Win or a lose...

My comment was only for dramatic affect. Fans will be fans sort of thing..why this upsets certain people was what I was attempting to get at... Anyway no big deal... carry on!

Mr Writer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2012, 01:23 PM
  #520
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,620
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
I'd say Canada is (and always will be) the #1 hockey power and/or best hockey country. Nobody can compete with them in terms of players produced, infrastructure, popularity, passion, etc., etc. When you think of hockey, you think of Canada. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean they have (or always have had) the best national team. These are two different things.
If you are talking about popularity and the willingness to spend money for the recreational benefit of the public, Canada will be likely be No.1 for a long time in that context.

Yakushev72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2012, 08:43 PM
  #521
espo*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,453
vCash: 500
Sure, I got his point but you guys seem to be missing mine since a lot of the time you're here to simply troll Canadian hockey and not much else.

My point is if Canada lost you would be quick here to rub it in all the while exclaiming Canadian junior hockey has been shown to not be all it's cracked up to be. But we send a middle of the pack playoff bubble team over and it wins so what are you reduced to doing? well, saying their overall body of work was not all that fantastic of course!!

That's what you guys do, there is no winning with guys who are content on trolling such as you. If you fail well then it shows we suck, if we win it isn't impressive because we didn't blow out everyone 6-0, you attempt to make the succeeding team look like a failure and the losing teams(usually the one you cheer for that was beaten by the Canadians) as if they were the real winners.

don't kid yourself................you're sore loser trolls, nothing less then that.

I simply come here to express my admiration for our hockey and happiness when we win and to show you that once again we have proved you wrong, after all..........we won and you didn't.

That is the bottom line, if that is considered flaming then guilty I stand.

I am doing nothing wrong by so doing and I and some others who have some sense realise that.


Do you get my point now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Zine's point is that the teams in this tournament were extremely evenly matched, and that Sudbury emerged with a narrow win. A win is a win, and congratulations to the Sudbury kids for pulling it off. You are a flamer, so you aren't going to consider any arguments that doesn't end in, "We're No. 1, and Europeans suck!" Have fun with it!

espo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2012, 11:41 PM
  #522
2525
Leafs Tank Nation
 
2525's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,853
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
As for Canada's rank in the hockey world, my opinion is slightly different than yours. 50years ago, Canada was unchallenged as the worlds No. 1 hockey power. Obviously, other countries have now caught up, and most international tournaments are a toss-up. Canada rarely wins one where they can't have all of their best players on board (e.g., WC), which reinforces my position. My personal opinion is that it is just a matter of time before Russia finally overtakes Canada fully and becomes recognized as the No. 1 hockey power in the world. A combination of factors, one of which being population, will likely converge to push Russia ahead. They are not far behind now, if at all. In addition, I can see the potential for the United States to ultimately catch and surpass Canada as well. So go ahead and continue to chant "we're No. 1," but I wouldn't be surprised if, below the surface, you don't see the writing on the wall.
I disagree. I think it'll be the USA that eventually becomes the number 1 hockey power in the world.
The money being spent by USA hockey and the generous contributions by the NHL to USA hockey will continue to grow the game in the states more and more.

In fact one day we'll see the majority of NHL players being American.

I can understand Canadians and others who may not like Bettman. I can not understand Americans who dislike him. He is the best thing to happen for hockey in the US.


Last edited by stv11: 08-28-2012 at 03:33 AM. Reason: Edited quoted post
2525 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2012, 04:55 AM
  #523
Helpoing
21st c schizoid man
 
Helpoing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Riga
Country: Latvia
Posts: 1,035
vCash: 500
Ok, this is getting depressing. Every single thread in this forum turns into a flame war. With the very same posters.

On-topic: the tournament has some potential, SuperElit & USHL teams were a true surprise. Congrats to Su[a]dbury!

But the the media coverage of the event was simply atrocious. It was better than last year, but let's face it, if you didn't attend the games, then you have missed 3/4 of the action. We can only imagine how good was the first SF, how did Riga beat Sudbury, how physical was the derby between HIFK and LHC or how intense was the bronze medal game. Hell, only today did I find out that a 20 on 20 brawl was about to happen at the end of Riga-HIFK game and multiple OMON officers (same as SWAT) had to intervene. I'm very disappointed that I missed it all.

Helpoing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2012, 07:12 AM
  #524
Mr Writer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,192
vCash: 500
It's a Great Day for Hockey!

Mr Writer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 06:24 PM
  #525
Jussi
No strings on me
 
Jussi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Finland
Posts: 45,775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helpoing View Post
Ok, this is getting depressing. Every single thread in this forum turns into a flame war. With the very same posters.

On-topic: the tournament has some potential, SuperElit & USHL teams were a true surprise. Congrats to Su[a]dbury!

But the the media coverage of the event was simply atrocious. It was better than last year, but let's face it, if you didn't attend the games, then you have missed 3/4 of the action. We can only imagine how good was the first SF, how did Riga beat Sudbury, how physical was the derby between HIFK and LHC or how intense was the bronze medal game. Hell, only today did I find out that a 20 on 20 brawl was about to happen at the end of Riga-HIFK game and multiple OMON officers (same as SWAT) had to intervene. I'm very disappointed that I missed it all.
Derby? You're exaggerating the rivalry between Finnish and Swedish club teams.

Jussi is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:50 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.