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Shane Doan II... Doan you forget about me....

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Old
08-26-2012, 02:02 AM
  #101
tsujimoto74
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Not as huge on his game as y'all are, apparently.
Agreed. I don't know why so many here seem to think he'll magically become a top pairing d man in buffalo when he pretty much has none of the tools for it. His physical game is average, his skating is average, and he doesn't have much offensive upside. But yeah, let's trade Vanek for that and pray that it works?

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08-26-2012, 04:01 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by HogtownSabresfan View Post
How about insane? It's $2-$2.5 over his value as UFA. I find it hard to believe anyone else will give him four years $25-million.
This is a mistake happening in slow motion. What exactly has he proven in Phoenix? I'm missing it. He has a good reputation in international hockey. That's it. His career is on downside.
The nail in the coffin is the money counts as a cap hit no matter what.
Completely agree with this. However I have been on forums where to believe this was an insane price was to be in a severe minority...

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08-26-2012, 08:42 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
Agreed. I don't know why so many here seem to think he'll magically become a top pairing d man in buffalo when he pretty much has none of the tools for it. His physical game is average, his skating is average, and he doesn't have much offensive upside. But yeah, let's trade Vanek for that and pray that it works?
i don't think you know anything about hjalmersson that you couldn't form by looking at nhl.com or using a generality

Hammer is 25... anyone who watched him during the blackhawks cup winning season knows he has ALL the tools to be a complimentary top pairing defensemen.

He's a consistent, stay at home, shot blocking defensemen. he'd play in the top 4 on any team in the league.

it's easy to understand how the crowd that doesn't appreciate Sekera's performance last year, would lack an understanding of how good hammer is...

good DEFENSE is hard to see

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Old
08-26-2012, 09:21 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i don't think you know anything about hjalmersson that you couldn't form by looking at nhl.com or using a generality

Hammer is 25... anyone who watched him during the blackhawks cup winning season knows he has ALL the tools to be a complimentary top pairing defensemen.

He's a consistent, stay at home, shot blocking defensemen. he'd play in the top 4 on any team in the league.

it's easy to understand how the crowd that doesn't appreciate Sekera's performance last year, would lack an understanding of how good hammer is...

good DEFENSE is hard to see
I've been saying it for over a year too Jame... I cant honestly imagine a better partner for Myers - Nik is understated, but definately has what it takes to be top-4, and with chemistry taken into account likely top-2 in Buffalo

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08-26-2012, 09:55 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i don't think you know anything about hjalmersson that you couldn't form by looking at nhl.com or using a generality

Hammer is 25... anyone who watched him during the blackhawks cup winning season knows he has ALL the tools to be a complimentary top pairing defensemen.

He's a consistent, stay at home, shot blocking defensemen. he'd play in the top 4 on any team in the league.

it's easy to understand how the crowd that doesn't appreciate Sekera's performance last year, would lack an understanding of how good hammer is...

good DEFENSE is hard to see
I appreciate Sekera. But sound defense =/= top pairing potential. Maybe you don't care about scoring any goals ever if our defense can drag us to a 0-0 shoot out every night, but I want players on the top pair who have actual offensive upside. I'd MUCH rather give Sekera a shot with Myers than trade our most proven scorer for a guy that would play on the second pairing for most teams in the NHL and pray he clicks with Myers. But I get that you'd take pretty much any excuse to trade Vanek so I'm not even sure why I'm typing this. Oh well.

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08-26-2012, 10:13 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
I appreciate Sekera. But sound defense =/= top pairing potential. Maybe you don't care about scoring any goals ever if our defense can drag us to a 0-0 shoot out every night, but I want players on the top pair who have actual offensive upside. I'd MUCH rather give Sekera a shot with Myers than trade our most proven scorer for a guy that would play on the second pairing for most teams in the NHL and pray he clicks with Myers. But I get that you'd take pretty much any excuse to trade Vanek so I'm not even sure why I'm typing this. Oh well.
thank you for confirming my suspicion that your entire opinion of players is informed by : http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm#?navid=nav-sts-indiv

Rob Scuderi (1g / 8a / 9 pts / 82 games)... paired with Drew Doughty to form a stanley cup top pair.

(i've compared sekera to scuderi many times)

Hammer is a a very good defensemen at 25 yrs old... and shows all the traits i look for in a partner for Myers

question :
would you trade vanek for mcdonagh?

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Old
08-26-2012, 10:50 AM
  #107
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Back on topic......

Quote:
As for free agent forward Shane Doan, Regier said he has had no recent conversations with the Phoenix forward. Several media reports last week, notably one from ESPN.com, breathlessly reported the Sabres had made a four-year, $30 million offer to Doan, which had been reported locally weeks ago.

As a standard practice, Regier does not discuss specific offers made to free agents. He acknowledged the Sabres remain interested but they have yet to speak to Doan, who has still not decided if he's staying in Phoenix or going elsewhere.
http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/sa...cle1022846.ece

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Old
08-26-2012, 12:43 PM
  #108
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1. I think Vanek could be resigned, and it should be in the $5 mil range. I see the argument for him to be traded, as he is not utilized by Ruff correctly, and seems to be Ruffs whipping boy. Either way, he's never been the problem with the team. I could go either way with him.

2. Doan. I'd love him on the Sabres. We are not hockey heaven yet, nor have we established ourselves as a legit Cup contender. We will need to overpay. I'm ok with it bc I'm sick of a listless hockey team. Our team for years has not been a cohesive unit, it's been a bunch of me guys, with no leader. If I have to overpay for it, so what. We addresses the toughness with Ott & Foligno, adding character is next in the forward ranks. Doan does it. We are now not worrying about hockey money anymore, shoot, look at Philly, there is always a team that will take your high priced guys...NYR & Gomez too. There are ways. I'll take Doan at $7.5, he will make our team better.

3. I'm going to be positive and say Myers is going to be steady this year, Sekera was no fluke, Hodgson is a decent center and FES was for real.

4. Trade Leopold for a pick right now. Or prospect.

5. Sign Arnott for $1.5mil.

6. Put Ellis and Scott in the minors. I don't care if they are claimed.

With that I really believe we have a legit top 4 Eastern Conference team:

Vanek 7.143 - Hodgson 1.667 - Ott 2.95 (good balance of talent, youth and grit)
FES .9, 3.0, 4.0 (we know what they bring)
Leino 4.5 - Pomms 5.3 - Doan 7.5 (I don't care who plays center. Bunch of vets, all with solid two way games, they'll make it work)
Gerbe 1.45 - Arnott 1.5 - Kaleta 1.25 (speed, tenacity and a two way center vet)
McCormick is the scratch 1.2.

That's $42.36 tied up in the forwards.

McNabb .9 - Myers 5.5
Ehroff 4 - Sulzer .725 (hope the magic continues)
Regehr 4.02 - Sekera 2.75
Weber .950

$18.845 in the D.

Miller 6.25
Enroth .675

$6.925 in the goalies.

$68.13 in salary.

We'd have Arnott, Doan and Pomms as leaders, very good examples. Arnott plays limited minutes but has ability to step up to top 6 if needed. Ott can also slide into center role if needed and the occasional spot duty centering Gerbe n Kaleta, a line I'd love to see. Sucks loosing a minute eater like Leo but it's time for Myers to put up 22-25 per night and a top 3 of Myers, Ehr, & Sekera is really not bad.

That team has the potential to compete with any team plus a Lucic Incident would never be allowed with this lineup to derail the entire season like it did last year. Also allows development of the G Men.

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Old
08-26-2012, 02:48 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
The bolded is why I refuse to engage much in this discussion. He isn't coming here. The interest is very one-sided at this point. In all likelihood, our offer is being used to leverage other offers. I still anticipate Doan signing with a team much closer to a Cup than we are (Pens, Flyers, Rags, for example), if not the Coyotes.

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Old
08-26-2012, 03:57 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Hammer is a a very good defensemen at 25 yrs old... and shows all the traits i look for in a partner for Myers
Losing Vanek's scoring would hurt in the short term, but it could be offset in part by Doan, and offset completely by Armia, Grigorenko, and Girgensons once they arrive.

By that time, Buffalo could have:

Hjalmarsson - Myers (top two-way pairing)
Ehrhoff - Pysyk (offensive pairing)
McNabb - Sekera (defensive pairing)

I'd like defensive group.

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Old
08-26-2012, 04:09 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
thank you for confirming my suspicion that your entire opinion of players is informed by : http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm#?navid=nav-sts-indiv

Rob Scuderi (1g / 8a / 9 pts / 82 games)... paired with Drew Doughty to form a stanley cup top pair.

(i've compared sekera to scuderi many times)

Hammer is a a very good defensemen at 25 yrs old... and shows all the traits i look for in a partner for Myers

question :
would you trade vanek for mcdonagh?
Absolutely. McDonagh has a pretty incredible all-around tool set. He skates well, he can rush the puck by himself, and obviously takes care of business in his own end at a very high level. But I don't see McDonagh and Hjalmarsson being similar in play-style, and NYR won't trade him anyways, so that's a pretty moot point.
If you want a Sekera-esque d-man to pair with Myers, then just pair Sekera with Myers and bump Leo down with Regehr. It would cost us zero assets to try that. There's no way I would risk losing Vanek's scoring prowess on the hope that Hammer would be a good partner for Myers. You may not like him, but he and Pominville are really our only 2 proven scoring forwards, and I don't see how you'd expect any of our playmaking centers to develop well if they don't have some guys on the wing who can pot some goals to pass to.

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Old
08-26-2012, 04:15 PM
  #112
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If you trade Vanek for Hammer, it's Vanek for Hammer+.

What the + is would be key.

Vanek for Hammer+Shaw??

Not sure how Chicago would feel...we might need to add a pick, or Leopold, or Tropp, or something. But Shaw adds even more muscle to the back end.

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Old
08-26-2012, 04:57 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
Absolutely. McDonagh has a pretty incredible all-around tool set. He skates well, he can rush the puck by himself, and obviously takes care of business in his own end at a very high level.
good. just checking.

Quote:
But I don't see McDonagh and Hjalmarsson being similar in play-style, and NYR won't trade him anyways, so that's a pretty moot point.
i wasn't comparing the two. just checking how high the temperature is on your vanek homermeter. you aren't well, but atleast your not dying.


Quote:
If you want a Sekera-esque d-man to pair with Myers, then just pair Sekera with Myers and bump Leo down with Regehr. It would cost us zero assets to try that.
i want another good defensemen so we can form a better blueline
Hammer-Myers
Sulzer-Ehrhoff
Sekera-Regehr

Sekera and Hammer could compete with eachother for the top pair.

Leopold sucks.
Weber cant skate
pardy is fodder
and mcnabb shouldnt be relied on yet


Quote:
There's no way I would risk losing Vanek's scoring prowess on the hope that Hammer would be a good partner for Myers.
hammer WOULD be a good partner for myers
and vanek's scoring prowess is a thing of the past...
last 3 seasons he doesn't even average 30 goals per year.

If his name was Patric Hornqvist, i bet you'd have a different opinion...

buffalo fans are living in the past... in regards to vanek

Quote:
You may not like him, but he and Pominville are really our only 2 proven scoring forwards, and I don't see how you'd expect any of our playmaking centers to develop well if they don't have some guys on the wing who can pot some goals to pass to.
hyperbole... (how will our young talented centers ever develop without thomas vanek on their wing!!! )

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Old
08-26-2012, 06:26 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
and vanek's scoring prowess is a thing of the past...
last 3 seasons he doesn't even average 30 goals per year.

If his name was Patric Hornqvist, i bet you'd have a different opinion...
Vanek would average 31 goals/season over the past 3 years if you were using gpg average, which is what you used to compare Halls first 2 seasons to Vaneks first 2 seasons just 2 days ago, but of course this time using average per game goes against your agenda so of course you don't use it it's comical how much you flip flop in your arguments I don't even know why I bother especially since None of your fanatical and pointless ideas have any chance of becoming reality.

Don't worry Jame, Regier isn't that stupid to trade Vanek for Hammer. And Hornqvist doesn't touch Vaneks jock.Hornqvist = 1 30 goal season and 1 50 point season at age 25 and you compare him to a guy who had 2 40 goal campaigns at the same age

And it's funny you bring up McDonagh who has had one good season. Let's see him do it over more them 1 year, because if you look back at Vanek over his 2nd year he'd be one of the most untouchable players in the league at 22 with a 40-40 campaign.Vanek after his 2nd season at 22>>McDonagh after his 2nd season at 23. Let's see him perform consistently before you anoint him as a future Norris winner.Your obvious Vanek hate clouds any argument you present, since your so obviously biased against him.

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Old
08-26-2012, 08:19 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Vanek would average 31 goals/season over the past 3 years if you were using gpg average, which is what you used to compare Halls first 2 seasons to Vaneks first 2 seasons just 2 days ago, but of course this time using average per game goes against your agenda so of course you don't use it
so your "i got you" is that i referred to Vanek's 28.6 goals per season of the last 3 seasons... and you would rather we refer to it as 30.7 goals per game over the last 3 seasons...

thanks for the lolz

i
Quote:
t's comical how much you flip flop in your arguments I don't even know why I bother especially since None of your fanatical and pointless ideas have any chance of becoming reality.
yea... like roy for ott... stupid me

Quote:
Don't worry Jame, Regier isn't that stupid to trade Vanek for Hammer. And Hornqvist doesn't touch Vaneks jock.Hornqvist = 1 30 goal season and 1 50 point season at age 25 and you compare him to a guy who had 2 40 goal campaigns at the same age
everytime you refer to vanek's 40 goal seasons you've already lost the argument

Quote:
And it's funny you bring up McDonagh who has had one good season. Let's see him do it over more them 1 year, because if you look back at Vanek over his 2nd year he'd be one of the most untouchable players in the league at 22 with a 40-40 campaign.Vanek after his 2nd season at 22>>McDonagh after his 2nd season at 23. Let's see him perform consistently before you anoint him as a future Norris winner.Your obvious Vanek hate clouds any argument you present, since your so obviously biased against him.
im not the one who's biased.

tyler myers has had "one good season" too... but since he's a sabres fan you'll run around like a homer telling everyone how he's untouchable, blah blah blah

McDonagh is far better then Myers... i know you don't know that. you dont know much

vanek's 2nd season... he was playing on the 3rd line behind 2 great lines... he got to pick on easy competition.

McDonagh 11-12 > Vanek 06-07

McDonagh just finished the year playing top pairing shut down minutes on a contender... youre hopeless.
who's more likely to be biased... the sabres fan who think the sabres player is super awesome... or the sabres fan who is critical of the flaws in every players game

yea... im biased

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Old
08-27-2012, 12:07 AM
  #116
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How are Buffalo fans "living in the past" in regards to Vanek?

He's one season removed from the best year of his career, and that was being carried nicely into this last season too until he was injured. Bringing up Hornqvist is just baiting, he's a significantly more one-dimensional garbage goal scorer without anything close to Vanek's complete offensive game, and yes, Vanek has a complete offensive game.

Hjalmarsson is meh in this context. He hasn't done anything since they traded Campbell, and he's consistently been insulated from tough matchups by a brutally overworked Keith/Seabrook pairing. He'd go back to being a solid #4 with upside in Buffalo, rather than splitting the 3 spot with Leddy, but that's not worth trading Vanek for, especially when none of the pluses help in the immediate future and are all pretty much just worse versions of our young talent.

And trading Vanek for cents on the dollar, even in terms of team needs, doesn't rectify any of the real issues with giving Doan 7.5.

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08-27-2012, 03:16 AM
  #117
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I like hammer but not for vanek. But I know vanek has similar value to leopold on these boards

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08-27-2012, 08:48 AM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
How are Buffalo fans "living in the past" in regards to Vanek?
They constantly refer to his 40 goal seasons

Quote:
He's one season removed from the best year of his career, and that was being carried nicely into this last season too until he was injured.
agreed.

and yes, he's injury prone.

I think the average of his performances over the last 3 years, is a fair barometer for what to expect going forward :

70+ games
60+ points
~ 30 goals

Quote:
Bringing up Hornqvist is just baiting, he's a significantly more one-dimensional garbage goal scorer without anything close to Vanek's complete offensive game, and yes, Vanek has a complete offensive game.
So forechecking is not a necessary skill to have a complete offensive game? puck possession? skating ability?

Vanek has an excellent shot that he has trouble getting off.
He's great around the net deflecting pucks, corralling rebounds
He's a pretty good pass/playmaker when given enough space

Calling him a complete offensive player is an insult to complete offensive players

Quote:
Hjalmarsson is meh in this context. He hasn't done anything since they traded Campbell, and he's consistently been insulated from tough matchups by a brutally overworked Keith/Seabrook pairing. He'd go back to being a solid #4 with upside in Buffalo, rather than splitting the 3 spot with Leddy, but that's not worth trading Vanek for, especially when none of the pluses help in the immediate future and are all pretty much just worse versions of our young talent.
Hammer took a step back over the last year or so... i'd agree. Myers took a step back last year as well. Hammer has already proven he is capable of being a top 4 defender on a cup team... so im not too worried about it.

Quote:
And trading Vanek for cents on the dollar, even in terms of team needs, doesn't rectify any of the real issues with giving Doan 7.5.
The only issue with giving Doan 7.5, is cap space over the next 2 years... or re-signing the 3 remaining "rochester core" players after their contracts expire in 2 years.

So yea, trading Vanek would rectify the some of the issues.

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08-27-2012, 09:11 AM
  #119
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In terms of Vanek....I love Hammer. But, we until we have the equivilent forward who can still produce while playing against top checking...why in the world are we trading him for MORE D?

I guess the logic is sign Doan, move Vanek...which doesn't make a ton of sense. Parise that could have worked with. But Doan's production is set...20-25 goals, 50-60 points with a gritty two way game and works hard. But, when you consider that Vanek produces 25-35 goals, 60-70 points against top checkers every night, I don't seethe logic in trading him at this point.

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08-27-2012, 09:21 AM
  #120
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Comes into Shane Doan thread

Discussion is about trading Vanek, Jame is involved

Back to the OT thread then.

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08-27-2012, 09:31 AM
  #121
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....am i too late for this party?

Doan go chasing 30 Mil
Please stick to the sliver of that take that you're used to
I know that you're gonna stay in Pheonix in they're there at all
But I think you're moving for cash

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08-27-2012, 09:34 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
....am i too late for this party?

Doan go chasing 30 Mil
Please stick to the sliver of that take that you're used to
I know that you're gonna stay in Pheonix in they're there at all
But I think you're moving for cash
A+, would read again.

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08-27-2012, 09:39 AM
  #123
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Doan you want me baby
Doan you want my cash

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Old
08-27-2012, 10:08 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by GirgsAndGrigs View Post
In terms of Vanek....I love Hammer. But, we until we have the equivilent forward who can still produce while playing against top checking...why in the world are we trading him for MORE D?

I guess the logic is sign Doan, move Vanek...which doesn't make a ton of sense. Parise that could have worked with. But Doan's production is set...20-25 goals, 50-60 points with a gritty two way game and works hard. But, when you consider that Vanek produces 25-35 goals, 60-70 points against top checkers every night, I don't seethe logic in trading him at this point.
I'll take this trade off:
5-10 goals and 15 points
for
gritty 2 way play and leadership
PLUS the trade return vanek would yield.

that's an easy trade off for me...


(FYI, Doan plays against top checkers every night as well...)

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Old
08-27-2012, 10:13 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
They constantly refer to his 40 goal seasons
Fair. I don't think he's any less of an offensive player now than he was in his last 40 goal season, however.

Quote:
agreed.

and yes, he's injury prone.

I think the average of his performances over the last 3 years, is a fair barometer for what to expect going forward :

70+ games
60+ points
~ 30 goals
Yup. I'd just add "with the potential for more" because the team really fell in behind him in 2011 and his two 60 point seasons were the result of long-term, nagging injuries - which, as we've agreed, is a separate issue.

Quote:
So forechecking is not a necessary skill to have a complete offensive game? puck possession? skating ability?

Vanek has an excellent shot that he has trouble getting off.
He's great around the net deflecting pucks, corralling rebounds
He's a pretty good pass/playmaker when given enough space

Calling him a complete offensive player is an insult to complete offensive players
Who's the gatekeeper for "complete offensive ability" then? I'd say the worst thing about Vanek's offensive game is his skating ability, which is average. His puck possession/retrieval is fine.
Quote:
Hammer took a step back over the last year or so... i'd agree. Myers took a step back last year as well. Hammer has already proven he is capable of being a top 4 defender on a cup team... so im not too worried about it.
Fair. I like the guy, Scuderi didn't break out for 2-3 more years from where Hammer is, etc, just not at the cost of Vanek.

As an aside, I think Myers will be fine so long as Ruff isn't distorting zone starts to showcase Gragnani. That to me was the biggest reason the rebuilt blueline was so iffy early in the year, even before the injuries. Hoff/Myers just weren't getting properly balanced zone starts/quality linemates/etc

Quote:
The only issue with giving Doan 7.5, is cap space over the next 2 years... or re-signing the 3 remaining "rochester core" players after their contracts expire in 2 years.

So yea, trading Vanek would rectify the some of the issues.
Yeah, but it's still 7.5 in potentially dead cap space that will get in the way of putting the "new" core over the top and/or making necessary moves. And it doesn't change the fact that we don't know where Doan's wall is.

Also, I think that keeping the guy who produced solidly or better while playing with a bunch of centers in the process of playing their ways off the roster would be a good way to help young talent like Hodgson along. Doan's effects on the kids is almost purely intangible, and he actually puts more raw offensive pressure on whoever he's playing with. Yeah, he makes the team "harder to play against," but he also weakens both the "stack the first line with Pominville-Hodgson-X" plan as well as the "roll three lines with Hodgson as the first scoring line center" bleuprint as well. I already know your opinion about Ennis and top checkers.

Getting Doan at the expense of Vanek means that you probably need to upgrade Tropp, all while still needing a better defensive pivot as well.

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