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Kroenke not cheap?

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Old
08-27-2012, 10:30 AM
  #26
Bender
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Youngest core. Not team.
This, though I'm not sure our aussie friend here knows the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
I surely hope you jest right there.

We just came 20th (missed play-offs)
The year before we came 29th (missed play-offs)
The year before we came 12th (out on the first round)
The year before we came 28th (missed play-offs)

Three out of our last 4 years, we have missed play-offs, and two of those were bottom three.

Now, you said I should stick to soccer, because I have no idea what I'm talking about, then claimed we have the youngest team in the league as it stands. We most certainly had the youngest core in 2011/2012, with an average age of 26.067, but with the acquisitions of Parenteau (30 next year), Mitchell (28 next year), Zanon (33 next year), and with our core one year older, we would be closer to circa 27.616 (especially in the event no rookies should make the team based on the below line-up), which has us 11th - 15th oldest in the NHL, so this can no longer be an excuse.

Yes, I consider Avs line-up VERY mediocre to be honest and fair. Do we boast the line-up's The Hawk's, The Cap's, The Canuck's, The Penguin's, The Rangers, The Flyers, The Bruin's & co. do?

Lets be honest here, and say no.

For that reason, our line-up is mediocre (I'd say offense is "average", our defense is horrible, our goalie situation is excellent).

Projected line-up:-

Top three lines in no particular order here:

Mcginn - Stastny - Jones
Landeskog - O'Reilly - Downie
Parenteau - Duchene - Hejduk
Mcleod - Mitchell - Kobasew

Zanon - Johnson
Wilson - O'Brien
O'Byrne - Hejda

Varlamov
Giguere

My opinion: this is a 19th - 29th placed team. Therefore, I stand by my comments with all due respect, we have a mediocre line-up that still gets dominated by certain teams.

Put it this way. We don't have a blood rivalry with Detroit anymore, because they turned into a team out of our league quality wise both on and off the ice (which kinda stinks).
Just the fact that you're mentioning the rivalry with the wings pretty much PROVES you don't know what you're talking about.

Do you really believe that Landeskog, Duchene, O'Reilly & Johnson will be shipped out SOON and we'll have another wave of younger talent replacing them before they even get the chance to hit their prime??

People like you make me laugh. You see the team for what it is right now and cannot project one or even two seasons into the future to see how it will all come together. You can't even make the same extrapolation for the wings, who just lost probably the best d-man to ever play the game in the modern era to retirement and have no one to replace him and it's like nothing happened. They are going to be worse off, you can bank on it. If the Avs want to 'keep up' with the wings, they'll need to be a team on the decline instead of a team on the rise.

Instead of spewing off a bunch of nonsense, why don't you check out HOW those teams were actually built and how long it took for them to actually become teams that consistently win and compete in the playoffs.

Ok let's see:

Hawks - take a look where THEY were when THEY selected Kane (#1), Toews (#3), Barker (#3), Skille (#7) and Seabrook (#14). Oh no, THEY never finished last or close to last in the standings and rebuilt their team with young players. Nope, never happened. (Core drafted - 2003-2007)

Caps - take a look where THEY were when THEY selected Ovechkin (#1), Backstrom (#4) and Alzner (#5). Oh no, THEY never finished last or close to last in the standings and rebuilt their team with young players. Nope, never happened.
(Core drafted - 2004-2007)

Penguins - take a look where THEY were when THEY selected Crosby (#1), Malkin (#2), J. Staal (#2) and Fleury (#1). Oh no, THEY never finished last or close to last in the standings and rebuilt their team with young players. Nope, never happened. (Core drafted - 2003-2006)

Bruins - take a look where THEY were when THEY selected Kessel (#5), Hamill (#8 - ouch) and Colborne (#15). Oh no, THEY never finished last or close to last in the standings and rebuilt their team with young players. Nope, never happened. Lucky for them, they made some very astute signings (Chara) and made fantastic use of their 2nd-3rd round picks (Lucic, Marchand). The Kessel trade enables them to keep the wheels moving and don't forget what Tim Thomas has meant for that franchise the past 5 years. (Core drafted - 2003-2006) [Bergeron 2nd round '03, Krejci 2nd round '04, Lucic 2nd round '06, Marchand 3rd round '06)

Rangers - take a look where THEY were when THEY selected Jessiman (#12), Montoya (#6) and M.Staal (#12). Oh no, THEY never finished last or close to last in the standings and rebuilt their team with young players. Nope, never happened. The Rangers are actually very fortunate to draft Lundqvist, who is without a doubt the backbone of that franchise. Then they made some good picks despite the first round busts with Callahan 4th round in '04, Dubinsky 2nd round in '04, Anisimov 2nd round in '06, Hagelin 6th round in '07, Del Zotto 1st round '08 and Stepan 2nd round '08. (Core drafted 2004 - 2008)

Canucks - take a look where THEY were when THEY selected D. Sedin (#2), H. Sedin (#3), B.Allen (#4) and B.Ference (#10). Oh no, THEY never finished last or close to last in the standings and rebuilt their team with young players. Nope, never happened. In fact, look how LONG it took for the Sedins to actually take over for guys like Markus Naslund and Todd Bertuzzi and actually start being a consistent winning team. It's certainly not something that happened instantly.
(Core drafted - 1999-2003)

Flyers - They've taken a different, quicker approach and have had mixed results. They've actually done quite well with their late 1st round picks (Richards, Downie, Giroux) but it also helps when you acquire one of the top d-men in the game (Pronger). Trading your core (Richards, Carter) signing Bryzgalov and now with Pronger injured, they're not really in any better shape than they were. Even if they traded most of their core away for other pieces, it still doesn't change the fact that they were drafted from 2003 to 2007.
(Core drafted - 2003-2007)

**obviously, some of these guys didn't turn out but that's not the point. The point is, that all of these teams finished very low in the standings and improved their team with higher draft picks in every round.

You see, it's HILARIOUS that you put the Avs in the same boat as these teams since they are ALL 3-7 years AHEAD of where we currently sit.

Since 2008, we only have THREE players remaining from that team. Stastny, Hejduk and McLeod. That's not a core. If we consider that Stewart was traded for Johnson (both drafted in 2006) and our core starts there (being very generous here), then the same exercise for the Avs would result in our core being from 2006-2011 and at the VERY LEAST, 2 to 3 years behind ALL of these teams, if not more.

Are you a special advisor to Jay Feaster? It's ok, you can tell us.

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Old
08-27-2012, 10:33 AM
  #27
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Arsenal have been a frugal team since before Kroenke was an owner. Wenger likes to trade for talented youngsters and develop them. Then when the players are 25-26 it might make more sense to trade them than to try to re-sign them to a very expensive contract (if they even want to remain Arsenal players when their contracts are about to expire). I think the recent trades have been more akin to trading a pending UFA player in the NHL than Arsenal being poor.

I think the main reason Arsenal sticks out these days is because Chelsea and Manchester City have been buying players for insane amounts of money. The contrast is striking.

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Old
08-27-2012, 10:39 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Arsenal have been a frugal team since before Kroenke was an owner. Wenger likes to trade for talented youngsters and develop them. Then when the players are 25-26 it might make more sense to trade them than to try to re-sign them to a very expensive contract (if they even want to remain Arsenal players when their contracts are about to expire). I think the recent trades have been more akin to trading a pending UFA player in the NHL than Arsenal being poor.
Yeah Arsenal is definitely not poor, but the latest transfers was Song and RvP.

We gave a massive contract for RvP who definitely is a top 5 striker in the world, but also massively injury prone. He declined and we decided to sell him than let him walk.

Song was sold because he had poor attitude with the coaching staff and kept getting into trouble and was just a cancer this year.

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08-27-2012, 10:43 AM
  #29
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What happens at Arsenal is completely irrelevant to what happens with the Avalanche. Especially for a transfer as comparably small as Podolski's, given the difference between money brought in from transfers for Arsenal over the last few years.

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08-27-2012, 01:33 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by AdamCalderHero View Post
With all this talk about Arsenal, all the players sold except Song had publicly stated they wanted to leave the club and Wenger decided he didn't want to keep an unhappy player. So you can't call Kroenke cheap for not keeping these players.

The only way you can call him cheap is for not bringing in the quality of supporting cast to make Arsenal a serious contender.
I thought Song wanted to leave as well? I thought I read somewhere that Arsene said something like "If players don't want to be here, they can leave," and that was directed to Song.

Didn't Nuri Sahin went to Liverpool on loan as well because Arsenal weren't willing to pay majority of Sahin's wage as well? Or was that they couldn't agree on future fee to buy him, or maybe both.

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08-27-2012, 01:41 PM
  #31
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Song wanted to stay, but he wasn't exactly beloved in the lockeroom.

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08-27-2012, 01:49 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by JWK View Post
I thought Song wanted to leave as well? I thought I read somewhere that Arsene said something like "If players don't want to be here, they can leave," and that was directed to Song.

Didn't Nuri Sahin went to Liverpool on loan as well because Arsenal weren't willing to pay majority of Sahin's wage as well? Or was that they couldn't agree on future fee to buy him, or maybe both.
Arsenal also wanted a buy now option for Sahin. Also I think it was too much money Real Madrid want for his salary, which made the loan not worth it. He still wanted to come to Arsenal instead of Liverpool.

Song probably wanted to stay, because he won't getting a lot of playing time in Barca, but he was also a cancer in the lockeroom at times this season and last. So Wenger said get out of town then.

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08-27-2012, 01:50 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by JWK View Post
I thought Song wanted to leave as well? I thought I read somewhere that Arsene said something like "If players don't want to be here, they can leave," and that was directed to Song.

Didn't Nuri Sahin went to Liverpool on loan as well because Arsenal weren't willing to pay majority of Sahin's wage as well? Or was that they couldn't agree on future fee to buy him, or maybe both.
Well the main reason Sahin went to Liverpool is because Mou hate Wenger.

With the exception of Cesc all the players left was because of 2 reasons trophies and $$$. From Henry to Song. Another player I forgot to mention is Adebayor.

Anyone else getting annoyed with this Kellogs commercial on HF? Sometimes it won't let me click on anything!!!

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08-27-2012, 02:13 PM
  #34
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08-27-2012, 02:19 PM
  #35
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Well the main reason Sahin went to Liverpool is because Mou hate Wenger.

With the exception of Cesc all the players left was because of 2 reasons trophies and $$$. From Henry to Song. Another player I forgot to mention is Adebayor.

Anyone else getting annoyed with this Kellogs commercial on HF? Sometimes it won't let me click on anything!!!
I get this effin Transformers game ad.

I don't remember the Adebayor situation, but I doubt Henry left because of trophies. He is like Hejduk of Arsenal.

Nasri definitely was the biggest punk and ****head out of all them.
I do understand RvP, but hope he doesn't win anything.
Didn't like how Cesc just left for his country, but he was definitely was the most respectful.

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08-27-2012, 02:33 PM
  #36
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Pfft sponsors.

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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
I get this effin Transformers game ad.

I don't remember the Adebayor situation, but I doubt Henry left because of trophies. He is like Hejduk of Arsenal.

Nasri definitely was the biggest punk and ****head out of all them.
I do understand RvP, but hope he doesn't win anything.
Didn't like how Cesc just left for his country, but he was definitely was the most respectful.
Never seen that one. The worst one by far was the 5 gum one, sometimes to would scar the hell out of me and wake everyone in my house.

I just remember Adebayor saying something like if Arsenal want me to be a top player then they have to pay me like one. Henry left because of one trophy the CL, this is obvious. I don't know how you can blame any one of them? It's not they're fault.

FWIW you can have Cesc back. PLZZZ!

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08-27-2012, 02:44 PM
  #37
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Pfft sponsors.



Never seen that one. The worst one by far was the 5 gum one, sometimes to would scar the hell out of me and wake everyone in my house.

I just remember Adebayor saying something like if Arsenal want me to be a top player then they have to pay me like one. Henry left because of one trophy the CL, this is obvious. I don't know how you can blame any one of them? It's not they're fault.

FWIW you can have Cesc back. PLZZZ!
OMG the transformers one is insane. You can't do anything until it loads and it takes like 20 seconds to load the damn clip and takes half of the effin page.

Why what is going on with Cesc? He was really good for Spain in the last Euro.

Adebayor is a lot like Balotelli. Arrogant attitudes gets the best of them. I keep forgetting he played for Arsenal, but that was the time I just got into football. Never been a fan of him anyway.

I do blame them because they don't have patience to win. They just want to win now and this mindset is becoming a main factor of younger players. That is why I am mad at all those players. What is Wenger supposed to do when he had Cesc, RvP, and Nasri and they didn't win anything? Buy more players? Sounds like stupid logic when you have three amazing players all worth close to 90-100 million. Just look at the 2009-10 season, that was a really good team that did lack a star defender and a goaler. Definitely should've been better than 3rd.

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08-27-2012, 02:47 PM
  #38
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Not sure if this is directed at me but I will go ahead an assume so, For all we know the Parise/SSuter offers were for 4 mill a piece. What I said about Arsenal is all true, they don't spend and when they do it's after they sold one of there superstars only to buy a couple of okay players. Arsenals biggest buy is Arshivin for 17 million and that was about 4 years ago, you compare that with players like Downing who had 0 goals and 0 assists, last year were bought for 20 million or Oscar/Lucas who are essentially prospects being bought for around 30. 17 million on a player looks like nothing. As long as the avs are at the bottom in terms of cap then this speculation won't go away.
No it wasn't directed at you, I posted that before I even read a post in this thread. I was just trying to be a generic pessimistic Avs fan.

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08-27-2012, 02:47 PM
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08-27-2012, 04:03 PM
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How the hell can a soccer club afford to spend that kind of money, let alone ANY sports franchise? 130mil Euros just to get their rights?
it depends on the situation and reasoning behind it.
some teams are just rich, others don't care what it take to spend and will go a bit into the negative to compete and others are just trying to appease the fans.

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08-27-2012, 04:52 PM
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chill out guys or we are gonna have to something about it .

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08-30-2012, 12:09 AM
  #42
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This, though I'm not sure our aussie friend here knows the difference.



Just the fact that you're mentioning the rivalry with the wings pretty much PROVES you don't know what you're talking about.

Do you really believe that Landeskog, Duchene, O'Reilly & Johnson will be shipped out SOON and we'll have another wave of younger talent replacing them before they even get the chance to hit their prime??

People like you make me laugh. You see the team for what it is right now and cannot project one or even two seasons into the future to see how it will all come together. You can't even make the same extrapolation for the wings, who just lost probably the best d-man to ever play the game in the modern era to retirement and have no one to replace him and it's like nothing happened. They are going to be worse off, you can bank on it. If the Avs want to 'keep up' with the wings, they'll need to be a team on the decline instead of a team on the rise.

Instead of spewing off a bunch of nonsense, why don't you check out HOW those teams were actually built and how long it took for them to actually become teams that consistently win and compete in the playoffs.

Ok let's see:

Hawks - take a look where THEY were when THEY selected Kane (#1), Toews (#3), Barker (#3), Skille (#7) and Seabrook (#14). Oh no, THEY never finished last or close to last in the standings and rebuilt their team with young players. Nope, never happened. (Core drafted - 2003-2007)

Caps - take a look where THEY were when THEY selected Ovechkin (#1), Backstrom (#4) and Alzner (#5). Oh no, THEY never finished last or close to last in the standings and rebuilt their team with young players. Nope, never happened.
(Core drafted - 2004-2007)

Penguins - take a look where THEY were when THEY selected Crosby (#1), Malkin (#2), J. Staal (#2) and Fleury (#1). Oh no, THEY never finished last or close to last in the standings and rebuilt their team with young players. Nope, never happened. (Core drafted - 2003-2006)

Bruins - take a look where THEY were when THEY selected Kessel (#5), Hamill (#8 - ouch) and Colborne (#15). Oh no, THEY never finished last or close to last in the standings and rebuilt their team with young players. Nope, never happened. Lucky for them, they made some very astute signings (Chara) and made fantastic use of their 2nd-3rd round picks (Lucic, Marchand). The Kessel trade enables them to keep the wheels moving and don't forget what Tim Thomas has meant for that franchise the past 5 years. (Core drafted - 2003-2006) [Bergeron 2nd round '03, Krejci 2nd round '04, Lucic 2nd round '06, Marchand 3rd round '06)

Rangers - take a look where THEY were when THEY selected Jessiman (#12), Montoya (#6) and M.Staal (#12). Oh no, THEY never finished last or close to last in the standings and rebuilt their team with young players. Nope, never happened. The Rangers are actually very fortunate to draft Lundqvist, who is without a doubt the backbone of that franchise. Then they made some good picks despite the first round busts with Callahan 4th round in '04, Dubinsky 2nd round in '04, Anisimov 2nd round in '06, Hagelin 6th round in '07, Del Zotto 1st round '08 and Stepan 2nd round '08. (Core drafted 2004 - 2008)

Canucks - take a look where THEY were when THEY selected D. Sedin (#2), H. Sedin (#3), B.Allen (#4) and B.Ference (#10). Oh no, THEY never finished last or close to last in the standings and rebuilt their team with young players. Nope, never happened. In fact, look how LONG it took for the Sedins to actually take over for guys like Markus Naslund and Todd Bertuzzi and actually start being a consistent winning team. It's certainly not something that happened instantly.
(Core drafted - 1999-2003)

Flyers - They've taken a different, quicker approach and have had mixed results. They've actually done quite well with their late 1st round picks (Richards, Downie, Giroux) but it also helps when you acquire one of the top d-men in the game (Pronger). Trading your core (Richards, Carter) signing Bryzgalov and now with Pronger injured, they're not really in any better shape than they were. Even if they traded most of their core away for other pieces, it still doesn't change the fact that they were drafted from 2003 to 2007.
(Core drafted - 2003-2007)

**obviously, some of these guys didn't turn out but that's not the point. The point is, that all of these teams finished very low in the standings and improved their team with higher draft picks in every round.

You see, it's HILARIOUS that you put the Avs in the same boat as these teams since they are ALL 3-7 years AHEAD of where we currently sit.

Since 2008, we only have THREE players remaining from that team. Stastny, Hejduk and McLeod. That's not a core. If we consider that Stewart was traded for Johnson (both drafted in 2006) and our core starts there (being very generous here), then the same exercise for the Avs would result in our core being from 2006-2011 and at the VERY LEAST, 2 to 3 years behind ALL of these teams, if not more.

Are you a special advisor to Jay Feaster? It's ok, you can tell us.
With all due respect, projecting is very hit and miss. What I have stated, are statistics & positions from years past (for Colorado), that were fact. I don't get that shows how I have no idea?

I also don't get the basis that Avs "have to" have X number of average years to become successful, because that is what has happened to other teams previously?

Who says that's the appropriate model to live and die by?

Sorry, I disagree.

Pierre Lacroix, Greg Sherman and The Kroenke's have had four years now to re-build, if that's what you actually want to call it (I call it an excuse to be honest). That's more than sufficient to have us placed above 29th and 20th position consecutively in this league.

We have an average roster (especially top end), and I stand by that theory. Now, by no means am I a Penguins expert, so their lines might be a bit scratchy, but player per player listed below, which would you choose over the other?

Mcginn/Neal ---- Stastny/Crosby ---- Jones/Dupuis
Parenteau/Kunitz ---- Duchene/Malkin ---- Hejduk/Kennedy
Landeskog/Cooke ---- O'Reilly/Sutter ---- Downie/Adams
Mcleod/Glass ---- Mitchell/Jeffrey ---- Kobasew/Vitale

Zanon/Martin ---- Johnson/Letang
Wilson/Orpik ---- O'Brien/Niskanen
O'Byrne/Lovejoy ---- Hejda/Engelland

Varlamov/Fleury
Giguere/Vokoun

Right or wrong, that is for you to decide. I personally think we are a very long distance quality, and time wise in catching up to these teams, and it's a concern from a passionate fans perspective (talking about myself here).

Now, I'm not suggesting any players are going to be shipped out. What I do suggest is there is a huge disconnect between Avs ownership, management, players, coaching staff, and us, the fans.

I don't know if you've kept up with the various Kroenke interviews through the Denver Post, but Josh has even been known to call fans spoiled, because they became used to winning, and that's just not going to happen at present.

I really don't get it.

Some of the moves, like releasing Liles has been plain wrong. Honestly, do we need a puck moving D-man? Did we have cap space? Would Liles have blitzed the rest of our D in scoring?

Why release Peter Mueller? Even HE was confused and didn't understand? Where is the communication?

Anyways, I'm regressing. All I'm saying is that no-one has the capacity to just "know" how we are going to be in relation to the rest of the competition in a number of years, and the people that can't do that most certainly shouldn't be told they have no idea.

Guess what. There are 29 other teams also looking at improving from now and then. Re-builds don't automatically translate to success.

Now, I'll just get back to advising Jay. I wrote this in my lunch break, and he's waiting on me

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08-30-2012, 02:04 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
With all due respect, projecting is very hit and miss. What I have stated, are statistics & positions from years past (for Colorado), that were fact. I don't get that shows how I have no idea?

I also don't get the basis that Avs "have to" have X number of average years to become successful, because that is what has happened to other teams previously?

Who says that's the appropriate model to live and die by?

Sorry, I disagree.

Pierre Lacroix, Greg Sherman and The Kroenke's have had four years now to re-build, if that's what you actually want to call it (I call it an excuse to be honest). That's more than sufficient to have us placed above 29th and 20th position consecutively in this league.

We have an average roster (especially top end), and I stand by that theory. Now, by no means am I a Penguins expert, so their lines might be a bit scratchy, but player per player listed below, which would you choose over the other?

Mcginn/Neal ---- Stastny/Crosby ---- Jones/Dupuis
Parenteau/Kunitz ---- Duchene/Malkin ---- Hejduk/Kennedy
Landeskog/Cooke ---- O'Reilly/Sutter ---- Downie/Adams
Mcleod/Glass ---- Mitchell/Jeffrey ---- Kobasew/Vitale

Zanon/Martin ---- Johnson/Letang
Wilson/Orpik ---- O'Brien/Niskanen
O'Byrne/Lovejoy ---- Hejda/Engelland

Varlamov/Fleury
Giguere/Vokoun

Right or wrong, that is for you to decide. I personally think we are a very long distance quality, and time wise in catching up to these teams, and it's a concern from a passionate fans perspective (talking about myself here).

Now, I'm not suggesting any players are going to be shipped out. What I do suggest is there is a huge disconnect between Avs ownership, management, players, coaching staff, and us, the fans.

I don't know if you've kept up with the various Kroenke interviews through the Denver Post, but Josh has even been known to call fans spoiled, because they became used to winning, and that's just not going to happen at present.

I really don't get it.

Some of the moves, like releasing Liles has been plain wrong. Honestly, do we need a puck moving D-man? Did we have cap space? Would Liles have blitzed the rest of our D in scoring?

Why release Peter Mueller? Even HE was confused and didn't understand? Where is the communication?

Anyways, I'm regressing. All I'm saying is that no-one has the capacity to just "know" how we are going to be in relation to the rest of the competition in a number of years, and the people that can't do that most certainly shouldn't be told they have no idea.

Guess what. There are 29 other teams also looking at improving from now and then. Re-builds don't automatically translate to success.

Now, I'll just get back to advising Jay. I wrote this in my lunch break, and he's waiting on me

How did the Nordiques build such a strong team that eventually led to the Avs powerhouse? Years of building a core through high draft picks and making smart trades. People tend to forget that Nords fans had years of suffering and patience before building a good team. So, yes, there is a history of how good teams are built. The Avs are in the process of doing that.

Do you remember how BAD the Pens were before the Crosby/Malkin days? They were HORRIBLE. Fans only had memories of Mario Lemieux to cling too.

The Hawks before the Kane/Toews days? A complete joke of a team. They were still dreaming of Roenick and Amonte back in the 90's.

Sound familiar to you? The Avs are going through the same transition. There is no certain amount of time where you can say "Bang! We're going to be a Cup team in 2 more years". But, you can definitely see what the Avs are up too and that a core is coming together.

To say, "Oh, PL and Sherman have had 4 YEARS to turn this ship around! They are just cheap and want to be mediocre!" is very ignorant. Championship teams aren't built overnight, and aren't built in just 4 years.

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08-30-2012, 02:22 PM
  #44
Ceremony
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Sherman has had three years in the job.

Drizzt1, what would you do differently? How else would you like the team to be built when all the successful teams you list have went through a process like the one we're in now?

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08-30-2012, 04:23 PM
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i still think sherman is just a penny pinching cheap ass accountant.

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08-30-2012, 05:03 PM
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iAvs (quotes are getting too long, so I'll just reply like this). I still don't get that you have to build, and suffer for a period to be, or remain good? I have always maintained that a "re-build" is just an excuse for teams planning on remaining mediocre for a number of years.

I think it's a pretty long bow to draw, if we are comparing our core (Duchene, Landeskog, Varlamov, Johnson and O'Reilly) to that of Pittsburg (Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Letang and Fluery) or or Washington (Ovechkin, Backstrom, Green) etc....

Our problem (and I know this sounds silly as a problem), is that our worst hockey, isn't really that bad, so we'll never be in the "Oiler" category of picking up 1st round pick, after 1st round pick.

Therefore, the selection of players we build our core around, isn't really the marquee type of guys that can dominate a league.

You spoke about The Nordique's core. I have to admit, Sakic was a lucky win, going at 15th in the draft. Foppa was part of a larger trade. Hejduk was a second rounder for goodness sakes - how good was THAT pick up ! Footer was 22nd overall. It's not like we picked up the absolute best of those players by coming last.

BUT, I also think those days are gone, and the scouting is much better, so the top end talent has been better ear-marked, and disappear pretty quickly.

What's that mean for us?

I think it means we miss the absolute superstars, because we don't/won't tank enough, but we are in a position to not toke it out for the play-offs and be contenders.

That puts clubs into perennial Toronto Maple Leafs spirals. It all ends up pretty mediocre results wise.

ceremony - I would have kept Liles for starters. I would have kept Mueller. I would have maybe managed Fleishmann's injury better (I know people's opinion about his injury, but his manager has claimed these sentiments are just not true http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rc...kLkVt2BPHTdhQQ). I would have acquired "if possible" a marquee sniper. I would not have ripped a hole in one part of the team to replace it with another. I would have improved communication to the fans and the players. I would have improved marketing. I would have attempted to interest fans in buying season tickets, you know, just give them a reason to. I would have tried to make fans feel like they are part of a community. I would not have let Lappy walk for nothing.

Don't get me wrong, Sherman has done some good things. I love that Varly and Giguere are our goalies. I hate the price we paid for Varly. I love that Johnson & Siemens were acquired. I hate that we lost Shattenkirk, Rattie and Stewart for them (noting McClement walked for a nominal salary in Toronto).

I still think our roster is mediocre. I mean, look at our defence: Johnson (excellent), next best is miles worse, with the likes of Zanon, Hunwick, Wilson, O'Brien, Hejda & O'Byrne.

Be honest, is that a Stanley Cup winning defence right there, or does it have potential to? Johnson is here for another four years, O'Brien three, Hejda three, Wilson three, Hunwick and Zanon two. Doesn't leave many spots open going forward for quite some time, does it - so this is what we have - mediocre.

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08-30-2012, 05:26 PM
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Well Fleischmann and Mueller have been replaced to an extent with McGinn, Downie and Parenteau. All of them were acquired without giving up much, and they're much surer things to play and stay healthy, even if they're probably not as skilled. With Fleischmann, if the Avs doctors saw a worry for him playing at altitude then I have to trust them. Something as serious as that, you have to err on the side of caution, as it's a guy's life at stake. I doubt Flash would have been too anxious to come back too, given that he may not know whether he could play safely. And his agent saying he's fine... it's not really an objective source, is it? His agent's not going to turn round and say he's carrying any potential injury.

You have no disagreements with me on the marketing/communication thing. It's woeful. It should change immediately.

McClement leaving for nothing was also horrible. As for Liles... as much as it seems like a waste, he wasn't going to be re-signed at the end of his contract, so we got something for him while we could. I think there was also a bit of over-estimating guys like Barrie and Elliott's ability to come into the team and perform at the level Liles did, but that's moot now. It's a young management and coaching team, they'll make mistakes.

The defense as it is is certainly the weak part. You've got Johnson and then you've got a bunch of guys who're all very similar, but some decent coaching and they're alright. O'Byrne and Hejda are a great shutdown pair (though I'd like to see Hejda being more physical), O'Brien is a great team guy and can play although he needs reined in a bit on occasion, Wilson, an injury-free Wilson, can both hit (best hitter on the team) and put up a decent amount of points, and I really hope he can stay healthy. Hunwick's terrible and should be gone. Zanon's a head scratcher but I'll reserve judgement on him until I see him.

The price we paid for Varlamov is, long-term, fantastic if you ask me. Assuming he becomes what he's capable of being it certainly sucks to lose what could be a useful forward, but I'd much rather have a potential elite goalie.

An aside on what you're saying about how the team was built, we have lots of first round picks in the team now. Duchene, Landeskog, Johnson, Varlamov and then the second round produced guys like Stastny and O'Reilly. Our drafting is very good and has yielded both the crucial core of the team plus lots of complimentary players, Jones for instance in the 9th round, then guys like Elliott, Barrie and Siemens who should make an impact in the next two years. Then the other pieces like Parenteau, Giguere and O'Brien come in by free agency, and it means we don't have to go down the Oilers route, or the Nordiques route. The core guys are there who should get better and will get better (imagine Landeskog with a better shooting accuracy, or Duchene who passes, even a Stastny who looks vaguely worth his contract) and there's no reason why our core can't be as good as any in the league. I don't know why you include Washington in that actually, since they're not exactly perennial contenders.

The bottom line is, it takes time to build a real consistent winner who can stay at the top for a long time. While we'd all like it to go faster, our core is still young and developing, and can only get better.

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08-30-2012, 07:23 PM
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Sucking for a long period, and going into a full rebuild, where you build around top picks isn't a guarantee for a successful rebuild. It mostly depends on how dominant those top picks end up, and a lot of it is luck in who the top picks were in the years you sucked.

It worked out well for teams like Pittsburgh and Chicago, because they got dominant players like Crosby, Malkin, Toews, and Kane. It worked out for the Nords/Avs because they got Sakic early and then Lindros which brought in Forsberg and a great deal more.

The Avs are hoping for the same thing again, but it's not clear how dominant a guy like Duchene will be. If he doesn't hit his potential and become a go to guy, the Avs are going to have to adjust their strategy, and this involves bringing in expensive players via trade or UFA.


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08-30-2012, 08:07 PM
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Exactly.

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08-30-2012, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
How the hell can a soccer club afford to spend that kind of money, let alone ANY sports franchise? 130mil Euros just to get their rights?
The big clubs make huge amounts of money. Clubs like Bayern Munich and Barca have revenues well over 300 million euros. The big spanish clubs, Barca and Real, also get support from their local governments to cover debts incurred, and transfer fees are rarely paid up front.

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