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Old
08-15-2012, 10:59 PM
  #126
TheDevilMadeMe
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If anyone wants input on the rules for the HOH goalie project, the thread is up now

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08-17-2012, 06:44 PM
  #127
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Have you ever met or seen Guy Lafleur?He is 60yrs old and in better shape than most men in their 30's.In 1976 at the Canada Cup the team Doctor did an oxygen test and its measurements were comparable to a tour de france rider.The biggest partyers in sports were Michael Jordan and Joe Montana if you did your homework?Jordan was messing with a lot.And if you read the book about Montana the stories are shocking.

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08-24-2012, 03:57 PM
  #128
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7 game series right now, everyone healthy, who wins?

Vigneault

Parise – Crosby – Giroux
Sedin – Sedin – Iginla
Zetterberg – Datsyuk – Hossa
Hartnell – Stamkos – St. Louis

Chara – Doughty
Weber – Suter
Keith - Karlsson

Lundqvist
Rinne

Girardi, Thornton, Nash, Byfuglien

PP1: Sedin - Sedin - Crosby - Karlsson - Doughty
PP2: Giroux - Stamkos - St.Louis - Keith - Weber
PK1: Zetterberg - Parise - Chara - Suter
PK2: Datsyuk - St.Louis - Weber - Doughty


VS.

Babcock

Ovechkin - Malkin - Kovalchuk
EStall - Toews - Perry
Lucic - JStaal - Brown
Bergeron - Kesler - Benn

Letang - Pronger
Seabrook - MStaal
Pietrangelo - Mitchell

Quick
Thomas

Orpik, Kopitar, MRichards, Neal

PP1: Malkin - Ovechkin - Lucic - Kovalchuk - Letang
PP2: EStaal - Perry - JStaal - Pronger - Pietrangelo
PK1: JStaal - Bergeron - MStaal - Mitchell
PK2: Kesler - Richards - Seabrook - Pronger


Last edited by seventieslord: 08-24-2012 at 04:49 PM.
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08-24-2012, 04:57 PM
  #129
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Coaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
7 game series right now, everyone healthy, who wins?

Vigneault

Parise – Crosby – Giroux
Sedin – Sedin – Iginla
Zetterberg – Datsyuk – Hossa
Hartnell – Stamkos – St. Louis

Chara – Doughty
Weber – Suter
Keith - Karlsson

Lundqvist
Rinne

Girardi, Thornton, Nash, Byfuglien

PP1: Sedin - Sedin - Crosby - Karlsson - Doughty
PP2: Giroux - Stamkos - St.Louis - Keith - Weber
PK1: Zetterberg - Parise - Chara - Suter
PK2: Datsyuk - St.Louis - Weber - Doughty


VS.

Babcock

Ovechkin - Malkin - Kovalchuk
EStall - Toews - Perry
Lucic - JStaal - Brown
Bergeron - Kesler - Benn

Letang - Pronger
Seabrook - MStaal
Pietrangelo - Mitchell

Quick
Thomas

Orpik, Kopitar, MRichards, Neal

PP1: Malkin - Ovechkin - Lucic - Kovalchuk - Letang
PP2: EStaal - Perry - JStaal - Pronger - Pietrangelo
PK1: JStaal - Bergeron - MStaal - Mitchell
PK2: Kesler - Richards - Seabrook - Pronger
Coaches would juggle the line-up. Prime example remove Ovechkin from Malkin flipping Eric Staal and Ovechkin would strengthen both lines.

Beyond that the Babcock coached team wins. Flip coaches and the Babcock team wins.

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08-24-2012, 05:05 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Parise – Crosby – Giroux
Sedin – Sedin – Iginla
Zetterberg – Datsyuk – Hossa
Hartnell – Stamkos – St. Louis
Giroux has played his best, and the longest, at center, with Hartnell as his winger. No need to change things here. Further, Stamkos has been equally effective on wing or up the middle.

So,.. the line-up would probably look like:

Parise – Crosby – Stamkos
Sedin – Sedin – Iginla
Zetterberg – Datsyuk – Hossa
Hartnell – Giroux – St. Louis

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Old
08-26-2012, 08:40 PM
  #131
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Typhoon Bolaven is going to hit this island (Jeju) in about twelve hours from now. The last time a typhoon this size hit (2003 Maemi) the power was out for four days!!!(And two people died on my street when a wall collapsed). Hope that doesn't happen again. Wish me luck!

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Old
08-26-2012, 08:44 PM
  #132
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Ugh, good luck making it through that.

There's another hurricane that may be threatening New Orleans again soon

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08-26-2012, 10:11 PM
  #133
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I'm taking Team Vigneault pretty easily. Better defense by far in my opinion.

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Old
08-26-2012, 11:33 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I'm taking Team Vigneault pretty easily. Better defense by far in my opinion.
yuppers

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Old
08-27-2012, 06:14 AM
  #135
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Team Babcock, vastly superior goaltending and coaching.

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Old
08-27-2012, 06:40 AM
  #136
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Players

Notice the irony that four of my MLD picks are involved - 3rd center, two defensemen and a #1 goalie. Yet certain GMs pan the picks.

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08-27-2012, 06:45 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Notice the irony that four of my MLD picks are involved - 2nd center, two defensemen and a #1 goalie. Yet certain GMs pan the picks.
There's a big difference between one or two year wonders and all-time greats. The ATD sub-board looks at careers to date, no projections into the future and not just this year's performance.

Someone once drafted Svatoš, a young NHL 30-goal scorer, in the MLD (simply because he had just had one great year his rookie season and was popular at that point in time).

How great someone is at one point in time is not the same with how great their careers are in terms of all-time respect. Cheechoo wasn't among the top-2000 picks last year and deservedly so (though the Single-A Draft had several picks his career approximated in terms of overall value). He would have been a bad MLD pick in his best season too.

History is littered with guys who had one or two great seasons.


Last edited by VanIslander: 08-27-2012 at 06:56 AM.
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08-27-2012, 08:40 AM
  #138
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Games Played and Projecting

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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
There's a big difference between one or two year wonders and all-time greats. The ATD sub-board looks at careers to date, no projections into the future and not just this year's performance.

Someone once drafted Svatoš, a young NHL 30-goal scorer, in the MLD (simply because he had just had one great year his rookie season and was popular at that point in time).

How great someone is at one point in time is not the same with how great their careers are in terms of all-time respect. Cheechoo wasn't among the top-2000 picks last year and deservedly so (though the Single-A Draft had several picks his career approximated in terms of overall value). He would have been a bad MLD pick in his best season too.

History is littered with guys who had one or two great seasons.
Games played. Bingo Kampman and other dmen have fewer games during the regular season and fewer significant honours than Karlsson or Letang. To argue otherwise on a career basis your are projecting what Kampman would have done had he played more regular season games. Even if you simply adjust to an 82 game season you are projecting in a negative sense because the AST voting would not increase.

Likewise for forwards - Bob Gracie and others vs Jordan Staal, or goalies, Tom Paton and others vs Jonathan Quick. Regardless of the justification there is a great amount of projecting as described above. This projecting is not sustainable in any fashion by the supporting numbers.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-27-2012 at 09:54 AM. Reason: bold
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Old
08-27-2012, 12:56 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I'm taking Team Vigneault pretty easily. Better defense by far in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
yuppers
Yeah, I kinda thought so. I think Vigneault has perhaps the six best defensemen in the series and doesn’t give up anything at forward. (actually, out of the 17 “elite” offensive forwards in the starting lineups, 11 are on the Vigneault team, the exception being Hartnell who is there as a role player. The babcock team does have more “pure” role players but Vigneault was able to avoid that by getting guys like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Iginla, Parise, Hossa, and St. Louis.

Lots of Chemistry there too. Sedins, Preds D-men, Stammer/St.Louis, Zet/Dats.

Babcock has a bigger, tougher forward corps and a better penalty kill, but that can’t win out over all the other advantages.

Goaltending is a wash. 1st and 4th in the NHL by most estimations, versus 2nd and… let’s be generous and say Thomas is still considered 3rd.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Games played. Bingo Kampman and other dmen have fewer games during the regular season and fewer significant honours than Karlsson or Letang. To argue otherwise on a career basis your are projecting what Kampman would have done had he played more regular season games. Even if you simply adjust to an 82 game season you are projecting in a negative sense because the AST voting would not increase.

Likewise for forwards - Bob Gracie and others vs Jordan Staal, or goalies, Tom Paton and others vs Jonathan Quick. Regardless of the justification there is a great amount of projecting as described above. This projecting is not sustainable in any fashion by the supporting numbers.
You’re right that kampman also had a very short career. But GP are not the issue; seasons are the issue, as it’s not his fault how short the seasons were back then. So he had five full seasons, plus there are good reasons why he didn’t have more. Even if it’s true he was no longer good enough by 30, we know he was good enough to at least play through the war but didn’t.

Anyway, this exercise was about “right here, right now” and not about “all-time value” so the two can’t really compare.

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08-27-2012, 03:15 PM
  #140
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Projecting

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

You’re right that kampman also had a very short career. But GP are not the issue; seasons are the issue, as it’s not his fault how short the seasons were back then. So he had five full seasons, plus there are good reasons why he didn’t have more. Even if it’s true he was no longer good enough by 30, we know he was good enough to at least play through the war but didn’t.

Anyway, this exercise was about “right here, right now” and not about “all-time value” so the two can’t really compare.
Regardless you are projecting for Kampman. All we know is what he did during the time he played.As for "all time value" the long seasons penalize the recent players.

The fact remains that various comparisons that contribute to this mythical "all time value" have GP as a base, eg offensive skills are determined by PPG. For the pre WWII goalies you have repeatedly looked at GAA which is a GP influenced stat. So it is very legit to look at GP in determining "all time value".


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-27-2012 at 03:16 PM. Reason: punctuation
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Old
08-27-2012, 03:24 PM
  #141
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Regardless you are projecting for Kampman. All we know is what he did during the time he played.As for "all time value" the long seasons penalize the recent players.
That is a topic that has long been up for debate. WW2 players are a special case.

Quote:
The fact remains that various comparisons that contribute to this mythical "all time value" have GP as a base, eg offensive skills are determined by PPG. For the pre WWII goalies you have repeatedly looked at GAA which is a GP influenced stat. So it is very legit to look at GP in determining "all time value".
no, you are talking about "per game" stats. The GP number is simply the denominator of a fraction, which has nothing to do with your gripe, which is the raw number of games played being used as an indicator for a player. Two different things.

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08-28-2012, 05:33 AM
  #142
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Classic

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That is a topic that has long been up for debate. WW2 players are a special case.



no, you are talking about "per game" stats. The GP number is simply the denominator of a fraction, which has nothing to do with your gripe, which is the raw number of games played being used as an indicator for a player. Two different things.
Same could be said about TOI and ETOI. Concluding that leading a team in TOI/ETOI indicates #1 status at a position is just as faulty if we extend your reasoning.

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08-28-2012, 04:18 PM
  #143
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Same could be said about TOI and ETOI. Concluding that leading a team in TOI/ETOI indicates #1 status at a position is just as faulty if we extend your reasoning.
not sure what you're talking about.

If you're saying I would call a guy with 27 minutes a game for 27 games the #1 defenseman over a guy who played 25 for a full season, you are mistaken. I would call the 25 minute guy the #1, but I would say the 27 minute guy was a "#1 when healthy".

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08-28-2012, 04:49 PM
  #144
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If there is a lockout why don't we throw in another ATD this year and invite all the oldies surely some will come back!

What do you think!

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08-28-2012, 04:59 PM
  #145
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7-game series, ATD rules, only time with Toronto organization counts, nothing else. Who wins?


Imlach

Duff - Apps - Conacher
S.Smith - Kennedy - McDonald
Pulford - Keon - Ellis
Metz - Kelly - Sloan

Horton - Clancy
Day - Brewer
Morton - Kaberle

Bower
Joseph

spares: R.Stewart, Horner, Ullman, Klukay

PP1: Smith - Apps - Conacher - Clancy - Kaberle
PP2: Sloan - Kennedy - McDonald - Kelly - Horton
PK1: Keon - Pulford - Horton - Day
PK2: Kennedy - Metz - Clancy - Brewer

vs.

Burns

Mahovlich - Sittler - Vaive
Jackson - Sundin - Andreychuk
Watson - Gilmour - Armstrong
Clark - Bentley - Olczyk

Salming - Stanley
Pratt - Baun
Thomson - McCabe

Broda
Belfour

spares: Yushkevich, D.Williams, Kessel, Barilko

PP1: Mahovlich - Sittler - Vaive - Salming - McCabe
PP2: Jackson - Sundin - Andreychuk - Pratt - Bentley
PK1: Gilmour - Watson - Stanley - Thomson
PK2: Sittler - Armstrong - Salming - Baun

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08-28-2012, 05:01 PM
  #146
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If there is a lockout why don't we throw in another ATD this year and invite all the oldies surely some will come back!

What do you think!
look forward, not backwards!

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08-28-2012, 06:21 PM
  #147
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Toi

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not sure what you're talking about.

If you're saying I would call a guy with 27 minutes a game for 27 games the #1 defenseman over a guy who played 25 for a full season, you are mistaken. I would call the 25 minute guy the #1, but I would say the 27 minute guy was a "#1 when healthy".
The basic point is that TOI or ETOI(estimated) has to reflect how the game was played/coached.

There are two situations O6/post 1967 expansion that I will use to illustrate.

O6 basically saw teams play with 4 defensemen with the 5th playing a swing role, rotating thru based on circumstances.

Rank the dmen 1,2,3,4, in terms of the team hierarchy. The coach would want his best two defensemen on the ice as much as possible. As a pairing they could not play 60 minutes but in the following pairing format:

#1 and #4, #2 and #3 it was possible to approach sixty minutes for the first two. This could produce situations where the first pairing #'s 1 and 4 would play app 31 minutes each, while the second pairing could play app 29 minutes each. This would not mean that the #4 was suddenly the #2 defenseman.

Post expansion produced interesting defensive pairings. Most of the defensmen available to the expansion teams were old, experienced whose time had to be managed. A Team with three old defencemen could break-in two young defensemen using the following rotation:

Old #'s 1,2,3, New #'s 4,5.

Basic rotation: 1/4,2/5/3/4,1/5,2/4,35, dropping down to 1/2, or 2/3 0r 1.3 at times. Point is that #'s 4 and 5 would see more TOI but that did not make them the #1 and #2.

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08-28-2012, 06:42 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The basic point is that TOI or ETOI(estimated) has to reflect how the game was played/coached.

There are two situations O6/post 1967 expansion that I will use to illustrate.

O6 basically saw teams play with 4 defensemen with the 5th playing a swing role, rotating thru based on circumstances.

Rank the dmen 1,2,3,4, in terms of the team hierarchy. The coach would want his best two defensemen on the ice as much as possible. As a pairing they could not play 60 minutes but in the following pairing format:

#1 and #4, #2 and #3 it was possible to approach sixty minutes for the first two. This could produce situations where the first pairing #'s 1 and 4 would play app 31 minutes each, while the second pairing could play app 29 minutes each. This would not mean that the #4 was suddenly the #2 defenseman.

Post expansion produced interesting defensive pairings. Most of the defensmen available to the expansion teams were old, experienced whose time had to be managed. A Team with three old defencemen could break-in two young defensemen using the following rotation:

Old #'s 1,2,3, New #'s 4,5.

Basic rotation: 1/4,2/5/3/4,1/5,2/4,35, dropping down to 1/2, or 2/3 0r 1.3 at times. Point is that #'s 4 and 5 would see more TOI but that did not make them the #1 and #2.
those situations are actually very rare in the modern game. Look at Don Sweeney as an example. He played with Bourque and you'd think that his TOI would come out 2nd on the team even though he was a #3-4 defenseman. But no, his TOI was actually 3rd-4th just like it belonged in the team hierarchy. The fact is, the superior player will always get more special teams time, and extra ES shifts with other partners (last minute, for example). Dallas Smith, as another example, was not near Orr's ice time despite being his partner.

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08-28-2012, 07:05 PM
  #149
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Modern Game

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those situations are actually very rare in the modern game. Look at Don Sweeney as an example. He played with Bourque and you'd think that his TOI would come out 2nd on the team even though he was a #3-4 defenseman. But no, his TOI was actually 3rd-4th just like it belonged in the team hierarchy. The fact is, the superior player will always get more special teams time, and extra ES shifts with other partners (last minute, for example). Dallas Smith, as another example, was not near Orr's ice time despite being his partner.
Take the modern game to mean the short shift game which changed the way the game was played/coached and included extra players on the roster.

Your analogies do not touch the O6 nor the post 1967 expansion. Boston was not an expansion team.

The players in the MLD that are effected are from the two eras above as specified.

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08-28-2012, 07:32 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
#1 and #4, #2 and #3 it was possible to approach sixty minutes for the first two. This could produce situations where the first pairing #'s 1 and 4 would play app 31 minutes each, while the second pairing could play app 29 minutes each. This would not mean that the #4 was suddenly the #2 defenseman.
So in trying to get the #2 man the most minutes behind the #1 man, your hypothetical coach instead gives the #4 the most minutes behind the #1? That sounds like bad coaching.

Can you provide an actual example of this happening, instead of just making up numbers?

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Basic rotation: 1/4,2/5/3/4,1/5,2/4,35, dropping down to 1/2, or 2/3 0r 1.3 at times. Point is that #'s 4 and 5 would see more TOI but that did not make them the #1 and #2.
Is there a useful definition of a #1 defenceman other than one that the coach plays the most? If he's not the #1, why does he play the most? That is, if a coach designs a rotation such that his purported #1 does not play the most, he should reject that rotation and design a new one.

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