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Rick Nash+S.Delisle+cond. 3rd to NYR for Dubinsky+Anisimov+Erixon+2013 1st (Part III)

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08-28-2012, 08:56 AM
  #426
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Dubinsky and Anisimov had some of their best success playing together in New York.

Dubinsky, particularly last season, rarely got a chance to play with anyone of note. Anisimov played well with Stepan and Gaborik, but that line fell off a cliff after the New Year and Anisimov was back to bouncing around. I think they'll do well on a very bad team. Mostly because they'll get ample PP time, something neither one really got here.
agreed. Both Dubi and AA's best season came while playing together with Callahan.

You add a Foligno to that duo and you have the makings of a very solid line.

In fact you can add a guy like Umberger to that line and it's going to be solid.

I can easily see Dubi getting back to his 50+ point ways as much as I can easily see Anisimov getting back to 40+ point type seasons.

They were not traded for to be 3rd line bit part players. Dubinsky is going to see alot of ice time both are ES and on the 1st PP unit. AA at worst will see 2nd line minutes as he is still a better option than Ry-Jo for the time being (could and should change as the year progresses)

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08-28-2012, 09:23 AM
  #427
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Oh I can see them getting back to some decent point totals again, I thought people were saying that they believed Dubinsky and Anismov would be improved players in Columbus compared to how they were in NY. Anisimov maybe, but I think Dubinsky is what he is and you're not going to get many more points out of him.

edit: and more icetime doesn't always mean "more points". They'll be facing top defensive pairings without the benefit of a star like Gaborik to take the heat off them, and there's a limit to how well a player can perform by just giving them tons of icetime.

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08-28-2012, 09:49 AM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Oh I can see them getting back to some decent point totals again, I thought people were saying that they believed Dubinsky and Anismov would be improved players in Columbus compared to how they were in NY. Anisimov maybe, but I think Dubinsky is what he is and you're not going to get many more points out of him.

edit: and more icetime doesn't always mean "more points". They'll be facing top defensive pairings without the benefit of a star like Gaborik to take the heat off them, and there's a limit to how well a player can perform by just giving them tons of icetime.
I think it's more a matter of decent players on bad teams have a greater tendency to accumulate points.

These are the types of players that would be 2nd and 3rd liners else where that get played top line minutes and 1st PP time and as such are more often in position to take advantage of prime scoring opportunities that they would not have normally had playing on a better team.

In that line of thinking I can easily see Dubi getting to the 60 point plateau, just not capable of sustaining that on a year to year basis.

I would expect that as long as Brandon gets the minutes of a 1st liner, he will hover in the 50-60 point range. Once they slide him back to his more natural position of 2nd line LW, 45-50+ points is what i would expect from him annually.

Which is very solid.

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08-28-2012, 09:57 AM
  #429
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yeah, i think they'll both bounce back and have about 90-100 combined points. not much more youc an expect in return for a player with the contract that Nash had.

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08-28-2012, 10:14 AM
  #430
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Oh I can see them getting back to some decent point totals again, I thought people were saying that they believed Dubinsky and Anismov would be improved players in Columbus compared to how they were in NY.
Its refreshing to see that some people still understand theres a difference between those two things.

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08-28-2012, 10:55 AM
  #431
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I can see Dubinsky getting back to his "old" numbers, but Anisimov remains a mystery to me. I remember when he played in Russia 5 or so years ago and I saw him play on several occasion, I compared him to Viktor Kozlov. Nice frame, solid skills and might put up a very good season only to disappoint the next.

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08-28-2012, 11:00 AM
  #432
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I think it's more a matter of decent players on bad teams have a greater tendency to accumulate points.

These are the types of players that would be 2nd and 3rd liners else where that get played top line minutes and 1st PP time and as such are more often in position to take advantage of prime scoring opportunities that they would not have normally had playing on a better team.

In that line of thinking I can easily see Dubi getting to the 60 point plateau, just not capable of sustaining that on a year to year basis.

I would expect that as long as Brandon gets the minutes of a 1st liner, he will hover in the 50-60 point range. Once they slide him back to his more natural position of 2nd line LW, 45-50+ points is what i would expect from him annually.

Which is very solid.
Maybe. I mean he has regularly played 1st line minutes at some point in pretty much every NHL season except this last one. He does well for awhile but at some point he struggles offensively, and on a good team that gets him bumped down. On a bad team, I guess we'll see whether it's more beneficial to him to play through it or what.

But keep in mind that Nash, who is vastly more talented than Dubinsky in just about every way, didn't break 60 points last year. Maybe he wasn't trying hard, maybe he was down on the state of the team and wanted out, I don't know. But it certainly makes me hesitant to proclaim that a less talented player will do at least as well or possibly better.

Though as I type that, I seem to recall that Nash's icetime and responsibilities were cut in recent years for one reason or another compared to how he played under Hitchcock, so it could be more complicated.

Anisimov has also gotten his chances at higher lines and generally plays well for awhile and then falls off. He's younger and still has the chance to improve, I think, but again it's not exactly going to be easier for him without any real star players on the team.

My point is really that both guys have shown they can't consistently handle top line minutes and produce on a regular basis, and on a good team that gets them shuffled around the lineup. They were shuffled because their play fell off, not the other way around.

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08-28-2012, 11:07 AM
  #433
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What are Dubinsky's old numbers? The 10-11 season is a blip on the screen if Brandon has another 40 plus point season. Columbus will be the worst team in the NHL. Lousy atmosphere around the team.

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08-28-2012, 11:12 AM
  #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Not exactly sure how they're going to do better in Columbus' system? Dubinsky and Anisimov are both guys who got playing time on the Rangers top lines during their stay in NY and actually got to play with some legit stars instead of whatever Columbus has right now.

I like both guys but I don't really see anything about Columbus that makes me think they'll be better players there unless they just get icetime thrown at them and play 22 minutes per night and even then I'm not really sure we'll see any big gains
I believe that both Dubi & Anisimov will do very well. They are both young but have vet status, they have played deep into the playoffs & will continue to grow as players.

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08-28-2012, 01:51 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
What are Dubinsky's old numbers? The 10-11 season is a blip on the screen if Brandon has another 40 plus point season. Columbus will be the worst team in the NHL. Lousy atmosphere around the team.
Dubinsky seems like a player that plays better with added responsibility, which he'll have in Columbus.

I see 20+ goals and 45-50 points this year for him.

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08-28-2012, 01:58 PM
  #436
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A lesser benefit of adding Nash to the team than his on-ice contributions is that i think he will be a great mentor to a guy like Kreider.

Just as we said last season that Richards would be a great mentor to Stepan because of the similar games they play, and then by the end of the season it was pointed out the positive effect he had on MDZ, Nash and Gaborik will probably make good mentors for CK.

Like Richards can really teach the young elite passers on the team some of the tricks he's picked up over the years and help them with their vision, Nash can impart some of the wisdom he's picked up in regards to using his speed and size effectively, and Gabby can do the same in regards to CK's shot and ability to get open. When the players have the skills, as was with Steps and MDZ, a mentor with similarities in their game can really help them early on. I see some similiarities in CK's game to Nash especially and a lesser extent Gaborik.

WE have some great leaders on the team already, with Cally, Lundqvist, Boyle, Girardi showing what it means to play hard every shift and sacrifice everything, and now we added another leader to a good group. The benefit to the kids coming through the system should be great. For the young defensemen that might be here in 1-2 years, Staal and Girardi are basically veterans right now in my eyes.

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08-28-2012, 03:08 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Maybe. I mean he has regularly played 1st line minutes at some point in pretty much every NHL season except this last one. He does well for awhile but at some point he struggles offensively, and on a good team that gets him bumped down. On a bad team, I guess we'll see whether it's more beneficial to him to play through it or what.

But keep in mind that Nash, who is vastly more talented than Dubinsky in just about every way, didn't break 60 points last year. Maybe he wasn't trying hard, maybe he was down on the state of the team and wanted out, I don't know. But it certainly makes me hesitant to proclaim that a less talented player will do at least as well or possibly better.

Though as I type that, I seem to recall that Nash's icetime and responsibilities were cut in recent years for one reason or another compared to how he played under Hitchcock, so it could be more complicated.

Anisimov has also gotten his chances at higher lines and generally plays well for awhile and then falls off. He's younger and still has the chance to improve, I think, but again it's not exactly going to be easier for him without any real star players on the team.

My point is really that both guys have shown they can't consistently handle top line minutes and produce on a regular basis, and on a good team that gets them shuffled around the lineup. They were shuffled because their play fell off, not the other way around.
Somewhat disagree with the bolded part.

During his rookie year was rarely played as a top line pivot (with good reason, he was a rookie) It wasn't until the 2nd half of the season that he saw extended time with Jagr.

During his 2nd season he played quite a bit with Zherdev, but more as a 2nd line option and not nearly enough on the PP...again with good reason

Dubi's 3rd year was Gaborik's 1st year and Dubinsky didnt' play with Gabs. That was Prospal and EC all the way. Again 2nd line run.

It's the 4th season where Dubi, AA and Callahan produced numbers that would justify the kind of minutes he was playing both at ES and on the PP.

Most of Dubinsky's tenure here in NY has been spent on the 2nd line (which is fine as that is what he is)

Last year hurt him alot. He needed to come into the season and repeat his 2010-11 season and that didn't happen.

Prior to last year Dubi had progressed as a player for 4 consecutive seasons. He was better defensively AND his Points per year average were increasing each year.

While I don't believe Dubinsky is ideally suited for top line minutes, I don't really believe he was given top line minutes and therefore wasn't able to produce consistently enough to warrant the demotion as well as not producing enough to cement his position there.

Like I said, his dud of a year in 2011-12 really hurt him.

All of that said, I still believe that this is a deal we HAVE to make. Both Dubi and AA WILL outproduce Nash for their careers. Of that I have no doubt.

The question is, will they outproduce Nash and Kreider because they are replacing Dubi and AA. In my opinion, the answer is no.

What also needs to be considered here is the opportunity benefits the Rangers will receive when opposing teams key in on Nash. Someone is going to benefit from coverage that Nash will draw on a game to game basis which is something that neither Dubi or AA could generate.

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08-28-2012, 03:14 PM
  #438
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What are Dubinsky's old numbers? The 10-11 season is a blip on the screen if Brandon has another 40 plus point season. Columbus will be the worst team in the NHL. Lousy atmosphere around the team.
as stated previously, Dubi was increasing his Points per season average for 4 straight seasons, if 2010-11 is a blip on the radar, then so is 2011-12.

I would say that the 44 points in 69 games that Dubi posted in 09-10 is the Dubi you can expect to see regularly.

And something tells me that Columbus is not going to be the worst team in the league. Thats assuming they get competent goaltending.

I like their defence, I like the increased depth at forward, Ry-Jo is going be a year older and don't disregard a team with a chip on it's shoulder.

the 05-06 Rangers had one and while they had Jagr, the rest of the team was complete *****. Hank was to much of an unknown at that time.

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08-28-2012, 03:22 PM
  #439
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I think Dubinsky will get his point totals up.

The question is will his streakiness continue to make him questionable as a guy you go to on a nightly basis to help you score enough points to win games.

It's that ability that stands between being a core player and a support player.

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08-28-2012, 09:30 PM
  #440
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yeah, i think they'll both bounce back and have about 90-100 combined points. not much more youc an expect in return for a player with the contract that Nash had.

Nash will never reach that so by main boards logic Jackets are clear winners. AINEC.

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08-28-2012, 10:16 PM
  #441
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Nash will never reach that so by main boards logic Jackets are clear winners. AINEC.
That's one of the most common misconceptions in this sport - "these two players scored 100 points combined, so they're worth the same as an 80+ pointer!"

No, people fail to realize that there is a huge difference - 100 points from 2 roster spots or 80 from 1. Gives other players more ice time and a chance to put up some good numbers.

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08-28-2012, 11:11 PM
  #442
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That's one of the most common misconceptions in this sport - "these two players scored 100 points combined, so they're worth the same as an 80+ pointer!"

No, people fail to realize that there is a huge difference - 100 points from 2 roster spots or 80 from 1. Gives other players more ice time and a chance to put up some good numbers.
It goes past just numbers. Nash is the kind of gamebreaker who can change a game with his offense. Neither Dubinsky nor Anisimov has that capability.

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08-29-2012, 06:28 AM
  #443
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
That's one of the most common misconceptions in this sport - "these two players scored 100 points combined, so they're worth the same as an 80+ pointer!"

No, people fail to realize that there is a huge difference - 100 points from 2 roster spots or 80 from 1. Gives other players more ice time and a chance to put up some good numbers.
And preferbly when its 3 palyers for 1... lol

...like its not hard to find 3 players in this league whos combined output tops Malkin, but whom very few people would trade Malkin straight up for...

You are of course right on the flaws in the production thinking. I want to add one thing also, often, that one mega star is often cheaper in the long run than any option of 2-3 players too.

Rich Nash makes 7.8m per. That's 3.9m per for two palyers. Or 2.6m per for 3 players.

Like lets say that Dubinsky, Anisimov and Erixon somewhat meets their potential, over the course of the coming 7 years, with inflation and whatnot, I don't think its far fetched to expect them 3 to on avg make 4m per or a combined 12m per. Add to that a rookie contract with bonuses for the 1st round pick, you can add another couple of millions to the 3 mentioned in cap hit.

What is the result? Its basically Dubinsky, Anisimov, Erixon and a 1st for Rich Nash and 14m - 7.8m = 6.2 million of cap space.

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08-29-2012, 12:38 PM
  #444
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What are Dubinsky's old numbers? The 10-11 season is a blip on the screen if Brandon has another 40 plus point season. Columbus will be the worst team in the NHL. Lousy atmosphere around the team.
To the bolded... For 2011/2012 I agree completely. But, with the trade of Carter (and Vermette and Pahlsson and Methot - not that they were problems necessarily, just not part of the solution) and Nash and the the addition of players like Jack Johnson, Dubinsky, Foligno, and others the atmosphere has COMPLETELY changed.

The team actually seems to have an identity at the moment which seems to be a "never say die" attitude. Many CBJ fans are anticipating having far more fun this year than last because of it. Will more wins appear? Hopefully, we'll all just have to wait and see.

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08-29-2012, 12:40 PM
  #445
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And preferbly when its 3 palyers for 1... lol

...like its not hard to find 3 players in this league whos combined output tops Malkin, but whom very few people would trade Malkin straight up for...

You are of course right on the flaws in the production thinking. I want to add one thing also, often, that one mega star is often cheaper in the long run than any option of 2-3 players too.

Rich Nash makes 7.8m per. That's 3.9m per for two palyers. Or 2.6m per for 3 players.

Like lets say that Dubinsky, Anisimov and Erixon somewhat meets their potential, over the course of the coming 7 years, with inflation and whatnot, I don't think its far fetched to expect them 3 to on avg make 4m per or a combined 12m per. Add to that a rookie contract with bonuses for the 1st round pick, you can add another couple of millions to the 3 mentioned in cap hit.

What is the result? Its basically Dubinsky, Anisimov, Erixon and a 1st for Rich Nash and 14m - 7.8m = 6.2 million of cap space.
While I agree in principle, it isn't Dubinsky + Anisimov + Erixon + 1st = Nash as far as $ for the Rangers. It is Dubinsky + Anisimov + Erixon + 1st = Nash + forward + defenseman. You might have about 5 million in cap space with the trade assuming the other guys are making league minimum.

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08-29-2012, 12:46 PM
  #446
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While I agree in principle, it isn't Dubinsky + Anisimov + Erixon + 1st = Nash as far as $ for the Rangers. It is Dubinsky + Anisimov + Erixon + 1st = Nash + forward + defenseman. You might have about 5 million in cap space with the trade assuming the other guys are making league minimum.
You are absolutely right and that's what I ment. You can spend "5m" on the replacement. Say that one spot is taken by a cheap player from within, the other 4m can be spent on a UFA or whatever.

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08-29-2012, 12:47 PM
  #447
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While I agree in principle, it isn't Dubinsky + Anisimov + Erixon + 1st = Nash as far as $ for the Rangers. It is Dubinsky + Anisimov + Erixon + 1st = Nash + forward + defenseman. You might have about 5 million in cap space with the trade assuming the other guys are making league minimum.
The forward in your equation is Kreider. As for the defenseman, Erixon wasn't a regular last year. He's still a prospect.

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08-29-2012, 01:43 PM
  #448
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
That's one of the most common misconceptions in this sport - "these two players scored 100 points combined, so they're worth the same as an 80+ pointer!"

No, people fail to realize that there is a huge difference - 100 points from 2 roster spots or 80 from 1. Gives other players more ice time and a chance to put up some good numbers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
And preferbly when its 3 palyers for 1... lol

...like its not hard to find 3 players in this league whos combined output tops Malkin, but whom very few people would trade Malkin straight up for...

You are of course right on the flaws in the production thinking. I want to add one thing also, often, that one mega star is often cheaper in the long run than any option of 2-3 players too.

Rich Nash makes 7.8m per. That's 3.9m per for two palyers. Or 2.6m per for 3 players.

Like lets say that Dubinsky, Anisimov and Erixon somewhat meets their potential, over the course of the coming 7 years, with inflation and whatnot, I don't think its far fetched to expect them 3 to on avg make 4m per or a combined 12m per. Add to that a rookie contract with bonuses for the 1st round pick, you can add another couple of millions to the 3 mentioned in cap hit.

What is the result? Its basically Dubinsky, Anisimov, Erixon and a 1st for Rich Nash and 14m - 7.8m = 6.2 million of cap space.
Great posts, some solid points made.

It's not just the numbers but other values involved, such as cap space, roster flexibility, opportunities for development, etc.

Also, as Z pointed out, neither of the 3 players are or will be the game breaker that Nash is. We were all crying about needing a 2nd game breaker aside from Gabby and now that the team has it, we're crying about losing skilled depth players? We had and STILL HAVE enough of those.

I swear, sometimes some of the posters on this board just want something to ***** and complain about.

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08-29-2012, 02:50 PM
  #449
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Great posts, some solid points made.

It's not just the numbers but other values involved, such as cap space, roster flexibility, opportunities for development, etc.

Also, as Z pointed out, neither of the 3 players are or will be the game breaker that Nash is. We were all crying about needing a 2nd game breaker aside from Gabby and now that the team has it, we're crying about losing skilled depth players? We had and STILL HAVE enough of those.

I swear, sometimes some of the posters on this board just want something to ***** and complain about.
10/10. A lot of people, including me, complain about a lot but I don't think we should...This was a good move. In reality what we traded away made most room for Nash's money. And IMO... Nash, Kreider>Dubinsky, Arty... not saying I don't like them, I loved them. But when a big opportunity to get a great player for as little as we traded...get it done, got it done, would do it again

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08-29-2012, 03:22 PM
  #450
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For a team like the Rangers who rarely drafts in the top-10 of any draft to get a top-end player there are very few paths to take. Free agency, hope to hit a home-run in the draft, or trade.

They have been, and continue to be able to stockpile the depth pieces, 2nd/3rd/4th line, 2nd pairing players who many teams covet. If they can continue to do that they will be able to afford to make these types of deals.

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