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RDS: Flyers/Habs talking about Subban (Mod Warning #441)

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08-28-2012, 11:31 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Marklar View Post
This. My god. To suggest his value is at Subban's level is a huge, ridiculous farce. They both have the same amount of offensive potential IMO, and offense coming from a d-man is more important.

Holmgren wouldn't even counter if he was offered Subban for COuts. He'd just do it.
Nah, haven't you heard? Couturier is a ppg, shut down centerman. He's elite. He was on the ice for three even strength points from Malkin in a 6 game series that was a power play festival. He could shut down Gretzky!

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08-28-2012, 11:33 AM
  #177
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They wouldn't move Couturier for Weber or Yandle, why would they move him for Subban.

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08-28-2012, 11:33 AM
  #178
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Why in the world would the Habs do this? Makes no sense

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08-28-2012, 11:35 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
I would do Couturier+ for Subban as a Flyers fan the + for me would only be like Wellwood or Gustaffson or MAB or a 2nd something along those lines. A top 9 forward + Couturier is something I wouldn't consider and forget about adding one of our current top 4 or 5 D if you want to include Mez who is hurt anyway.

That said I love Couturier and I don't think this trade would ever happen as our GM likes him too much and would demand a GIANT overpayment for him. We have a better chance of trading for a potential #2 or #3 D that somehow turns into a #1 then we do of overpaying for a #1 D currently. I think that was the point of acquiring L Schenn. We will see
I bet Bergevin feels the same way about Subban and after drafting Galchenyuk as his future center keeping Subban should be a priority.

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08-28-2012, 11:39 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
obvious strawman is obvious

i love PK, don't want him traded but if i can imagine him in any uniform other than the CH, it's the flyers. he's talented, he's obnoxious, playoff beast, can fight, hits hard, truculent... born to be a flyer basically
Not sure if serious

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08-28-2012, 11:39 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Paradingwolves View Post
As of now, by the end of next year it could easily be Couturier = Subban or even Couturier > Subban.

I still think with Giroux, B. Schenn and Briere down the middle Philly would think pretty hard about this one.
Yes because Subban will stop improving. Odds are Couturier hits 40-50 points and so does subban, as a d-man establishing himself as a #1 all around D.

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08-28-2012, 11:41 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
They wouldn't move Couturier for Weber or Yandle, why would they move him for Subban.
If the offer was a 1 for 1 swap of Couturier for a signed Weber the Flyers would be stupid not to do it but the offer was Couturier + other assets.. Anyway I think the Flyers thought the Preds couldn't afford to match and they'd get Weber for only picks instead.

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08-28-2012, 11:43 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
They wouldn't move Couturier for Weber or Yandle, why would they move him for Subban.
Maybe because you have no future on defense? In two years when Sean is struggling to hit forty points I can't wait to see him being tossed around, yet still overvalued, in trade proposals like that winger who was way more valuable than a loser like Luke Schenn. Who is now magically a solid defenseman.

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08-28-2012, 11:44 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Marklar View Post
This. My god. To suggest his value is at Subban's level is a huge, ridiculous farce. They both have the same amount of offensive potential IMO, and offense coming from a d-man is more important.

Holmgren wouldn't even counter if he was offered Subban for COuts. He'd just do it.
The one thing I don't get is if we're looking at best case scenario for couturier (ppg shutdown center) then why not best case scenario for subban?

Couturier will be a very good player for Philly but this PPG shutdown stuff is beyond ridiculous. Only 4 centers were above PPG and none were elite defensive players.

Malkin, Stamkos and Spezza, Giroux(Crosby omitted due to shortened season).

a 65 point two-way center? That I could see. Puts him top 20 in center points and add in that defensive edge to his game. If anything, he's Jordan Staal in terms of potential. Staal even had a better rookie year behind better centers.


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08-28-2012, 11:51 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
They wouldn't move Couturier for Weber or Yandle, why would they move him for Subban.
No, he wouldn't trade Couturier PLUS Schenn ++. That's completely different and something I agree with. If he wouldn't move Couturier for Weber, then Holmgren should be fired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
The one thing I don't get is if we're looking at best case scenario for couturier (ppg shutdown center) then why not best case scenario for subban?

Couturier will be a very good player for Philly but this PPG shutdown stuff is beyond ridiculous. Only 3 centers were above PPG and none were elite defensive players.

Malkin, Stamkos and Spezza.


a 65 point two-way center? That I could see. Puts him top 20 in center points and add in that defensive edge to his game. If anything, he's Jordan Staal in terms of potential. Staal even had a better rookie year behind better centers.
Not true. Giroux was a PPG but he's listed as winger on NHL.com. Not an elite defensive player though. That being said, I agree with your whole premise.

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08-28-2012, 11:52 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
Not true. Giroux was a PPG but he's listed as winger on NHL.com. That being said, I agree with your whole premise.
Fair enough, I knew I was missing someone. There's even Crosby but I ignored it because shortened season. Fact is, even what I listed as his potential is awesome, why try and overhype it? Same with subban of course. Some are saying multiple norris trophies. We need to relax. Subban needs to get there before we even talk about that stuff.

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08-28-2012, 11:52 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
The one thing I don't get is if we're looking at best case scenario for couturier (ppg shutdown center) then why not best case scenario for subban?

Couturier will be a very good player for Philly but this PPG shutdown stuff is beyond ridiculous. Only 3 centers were above PPG and none were elite defensive players.

Malkin, Stamkos and Spezza.

a 65 point two-way center? That I could see. Puts him top 20 in center points and add in that defensive edge to his game. If anything, he's Jordan Staal in terms of potential. Staal even had a better rookie year behind better centers.
Giroux?

I think Couts will be like Bergy. 60-70 point center with a great defensive game. Great 1B center who can do wonders in a shut down role but thats fine because G can be the number 1, no doubt. I think people undervalue a player like this until they have one on their team.

My question is, how does B. Schenn fit into the equation? Does his game translate well to the wing? Or in the future will they roll a Penguin-esque line up prior to Staal leaving?

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08-28-2012, 11:54 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Sorry View Post
Maybe because you have no future on defense? In two years when Sean is struggling to hit forty points I can't wait to see him being tossed around, yet still overvalued, in trade proposals like that winger who was way more valuable than a loser like Luke Schenn. Who is now magically a solid defenseman.
Must be easy for you, having that magic crystal ball and everything. Defense is an area of concern for the Flyers, but any trade to address that need is going to require 2 or 3 assets. The Flyers don't have a deep prospect pool, which means they're likely trading off roster players and picks to get a player. Any trade where they aren't taking on a reclamation project or bad contract is going to create a hole in their lineup they aren't capable of filling. THAT is why I think they are better off not making a move like this.

The Couturier hype is getting out of hand, as it usually does when a player is constantly the target in any trade thread, but what's also getting out of hand is this notion that the Flyers are so desperate for defensive help they're going to trade their 2nd most valuable asset (behind Giroux obviously). Do they need a young #1 defenseman? Sure. Are they going to get one? No, because those guys aren't available without overpaying and the Flyers don't have the prospect depth to pull off a trade like that without decimating their lineup.

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08-28-2012, 11:55 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by agreen23 View Post
Giroux?

I think Couts will be like Bergy. 60-70 point center with a great defensive game. Great 1B center but thats fine because G can be the number 1, no doubt.

My question is, how does B. Schenn fit into the equation? Does his game translate well to the wing? Or in the future will they roll a Penguin-esque line up prior to Staal leaving?
Yup made a mistake.

I see him more as a Staal. I consider Bergeron way more slick than Couturier but in his defense, it's too early to tell.

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08-28-2012, 11:57 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Must be easy for you, having that magic crystal ball and everything. Defense is an area of concern for the Flyers, but any trade to address that need is going to require 2 or 3 assets. The Flyers don't have a deep prospect pool, which means they're likely trading off roster players and picks to get a player. Any trade where they aren't taking on a reclamation project or bad contract is going to create a hole in their lineup they aren't capable of filling. THAT is why I think they are better off not making a move like this.

The Couturier hype is getting out of hand, as it usually does when a player is constantly the target in any trade thread, but what's also getting out of hand is this notion that the Flyers are so desperate for defensive help they're going to trade their 2nd most valuable asset (behind Giroux obviously). Do they need a young #1 defenseman? Sure. Are they going to get one? No, because those guys aren't available without overpaying and the Flyers don't have the prospect depth to pull off a trade like that without decimating their lineup.
Holmgren has shown to be an agressive GM. If he was using couturier+ to get a top 3 d-man, it would likely already be done. The fact that it hasn't makes me agree with you. They likely aren't trading one of their best assets for him. If anything, Schenn goes first but with his brother coming over, maybe not even him.

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08-28-2012, 12:01 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Sorry View Post
Maybe because you have no future on defense? In two years when Sean is struggling to hit forty points I can't wait to see him being tossed around, yet still overvalued, in trade proposals like that winger who was way more valuable than a loser like Luke Schenn. Who is now magically a solid defenseman.


oh man, bitter fans are bitter.

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08-28-2012, 12:07 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Holmgren has shown to be an agressive GM. If he was using couturier+ to get a top 3 d-man, it would likely already be done. The fact that it hasn't makes me agree with you. They likely aren't trading one of their best assets for him. If anything, Schenn goes first but with his brother coming over, maybe not even him.
They've shown a reluctance all summer to move Schenn and Couturier in any deal. For better or worse the plan seems to be to let the kids develop until a solution presents itself on defense. Coburn and Grossmann played well as a pair, if Timonen and Schenn can find some chemistry that's not a terrible top 4. Stanley cup winning? Probably not, but it's not quite the doomsday scenario some people are making it out to be.

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08-28-2012, 12:08 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Marklar View Post
This. My god. To suggest his value is at Subban's level is a huge, ridiculous farce. They both have the same amount of offensive potential IMO, and offense coming from a d-man is more important.

Holmgren wouldn't even counter if he was offered Subban for COuts. He'd just do it.
Couts is better defensively though, and he likely ends up being a 65-70 pt a year player, potentially more. Right now Subban is better. Couturier has a much higher ceiling.

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08-28-2012, 12:25 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post


oh man, bitter fans are bitter.
Bitter about what? You guys not winning what matters most in almost forty years? Yeah, real bitter about that...

Anyways. The Flyers would be smart to trade from an area of strength to help a weakness. But since the fans seem to be as high on misplaced power as the GM of the team, that's never going to happen. The Flyers have a giant hole when you look at their defense a few years down the road. Now whether you want to admit that and trade something of value to get a quality player or pretend you can just throw a ton of money at whatever shiny player is out there in free agency like you general manager does is up to you. If I were in your shoes I'd be screaming for a center to be traded for a defenseman who will provide something long term. At this rate the Flyers are gonna throw seven million at whatever top four defenseman they can get next year because their blueline is brutal for a "contender".

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08-28-2012, 12:28 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Must be easy for you, having that magic crystal ball and everything. Defense is an area of concern for the Flyers, but any trade to address that need is going to require 2 or 3 assets. The Flyers don't have a deep prospect pool, which means they're likely trading off roster players and picks to get a player. Any trade where they aren't taking on a reclamation project or bad contract is going to create a hole in their lineup they aren't capable of filling. THAT is why I think they are better off not making a move like this.

The Couturier hype is getting out of hand, as it usually does when a player is constantly the target in any trade thread, but what's also getting out of hand is this notion that the Flyers are so desperate for defensive help they're going to trade their 2nd most valuable asset (behind Giroux obviously). Do they need a young #1 defenseman? Sure. Are they going to get one? No, because those guys aren't available without overpaying and the Flyers don't have the prospect depth to pull off a trade like that without decimating their lineup.
I agree with most of what you said but Homer is going to throw the bank at whatever decent defenseman comes on the market next year, it's obvious. So he will overpay, just not with prospects. Which is where I disagree, Couturiers a decent chip, not a deal breaker. Any deal involving him straight up for a good young defenseman is not overpaying, it's called fair value. Or, in my opinion, it's highway robbery for you guys because Couturier is at least five years from being an impact offensively, aka a third line center.

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08-28-2012, 01:26 PM
  #196
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I agree with most of what you said but Homer is going to throw the bank at whatever decent defenseman comes on the market next year, it's obvious. So he will overpay, just not with prospects. Which is where I disagree, Couturiers a decent chip, not a deal breaker. Any deal involving him straight up for a good young defenseman is not overpaying, it's called fair value. Or, in my opinion, it's highway robbery for you guys because Couturier is at least five years from being an impact offensively, aka a third line center.
I don't disagree about fair value, but I do think you're understating the importance of Couturier to the Flyers lineup. It's purely ridiculous to speculate that he's 5 years away from being an impact offensively. He didn't light the world on fire offensively, but he had ok production for an 18 year old rookie playing mostly defensive minutes with mediocre line mates. This year he's supposed to take on more offensive responsibility and it remains to be seen how he'll respond to that, but there is absolutely nothing that suggests he can't be an impact offensively in the near future. PPG center? Probably a stretch, but that doesn't mean he won't be an impact.

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08-28-2012, 01:36 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
They wouldn't move Couturier for Weber or Yandle, why would they move him for Subban.

You have no way to know what was the whole deal.

IMO it would have been Couts + and The Flyers probably didnt like what the + was so they backed off.

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08-28-2012, 01:42 PM
  #198
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As for the OP. Its not about the Value.

If this deal is done. The Flyers are much better than they are right now, and The Habs are much worse.

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08-28-2012, 01:58 PM
  #199
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You have no way to know what was the whole deal.

IMO it would have been Couts + and The Flyers probably didnt like what the + was so they backed off.
I agree, but as I said in a different post the + has to come from their lineup because of their depleted prospect pool. It's different if it's Couturier a 1st and a prospect, than the likely package of Couturier + Read + 1st simply because of the huge hole it creates in their lineup.

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08-28-2012, 01:59 PM
  #200
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As for the OP. Its not about the Value.

If this deal is done. The Flyers are much better than they are right now, and The Habs are much worse.
I'm not sure that's true from the Flyers end--or at least it isn't as clear cut as you're suggesting.

Couturier is hands-down the team's best defensive forward--and the team doesn't have that many good defensive forwards. Losing him would be a significant blow to the overall team defense, as well as special / situational play.

I'm not sure that loss would be offset by Subban's addition, absent some other move.

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