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Old
08-27-2012, 12:34 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by fimoknete View Post
because thats what ken holland will aquire after the lockout when both are healthy again.
not to forget ritola.

since some people here are high on tomas tatar.
AHL games:
tomas tatar 76 games, 58 points
mattias ritola 66 games, 42 points

tatar is slightly better in this department. but its just ritola.


i guess cc would be an upgrade over lebda but not over lilja.

Ritola at age 20:


22 points in 72 games

Tatar at age 20:

57 points in 70 games

Remember Tatar is only 21 years old, going into this year will be the same age as Ritola when he put up those numbers you posted. I'm willing to bet with better talent in Grand Rapids this year he will crush those numbers Ritola put up. Plus he's a year older.

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08-27-2012, 06:02 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by fimoknete View Post
because thats what ken holland will aquire after the lockout when both are healthy again.
not to forget ritola.

since some people here are high on tomas tatar.
AHL games:
tomas tatar 76 games, 58 points
mattias ritola 66 games, 42 points

tatar is slightly better in this department. but its just ritola.
What do Tatar or Ritola have to do with Colaiacovo?

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08-27-2012, 06:18 AM
  #153
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What do Tatar or Ritola have to do with Colaiacovo?
Nothing

But I don't think we have been talking about that guy for like two pages it seems.

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08-27-2012, 09:08 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Nothing

But I don't think we have been talking about that guy for like two pages it seems.
wrong. just look 4 posts back......

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08-27-2012, 10:43 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
No, sorry, Jaster. Both were "protected". It's also odd that one of their peaks with the Wings was when they played as a pair.

How the heck can you guys keep coming back with this stuff when Lidstrom was the guy's friggin' partner?
Lilja played the PK. Ergo, he was not fully protected. He faced top-6 forwards who were on the PP.

Lidstrom was Lilja's partner for a very short time. That's why people can "keep coming back with this stuff"


Last edited by jaster: 08-27-2012 at 10:59 PM.
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08-27-2012, 10:49 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Ah. So Lilja was good. Lebda was protected.
Lilja was good in his role, and wasn't "fully" protected. Lebda was good in his [smaller] role, but was fully protected.


Quote:
Lilja was a below average defensive defenseman. Poor skater. Poor passer. Pretty soft for a guy his size. Limited hockey intelligence.

The only thing he did well was block shots. Sometimes.

Don't get me wrong. He was fine in a third pairing, PK role if you had a good team around him.

Decent guy to keep around if he's willing to play for $1.5M or less and if he doesn't ***** and moan when he loses his job to a youngster.
I said 'given his role, Lilja was good.' And he was. As a 3rd-pairing PKer. Anything beyond that, and he wasn't good. So it seems we're essentially in agreement on that point, besides the semantics in regards to "good" and "fine."


Last edited by jaster: 08-27-2012 at 10:58 PM.
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08-27-2012, 10:57 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by crashman View Post
Not even shamed to admit it...THIS is why I didn't like Lilja. This terrible play may have cost the Wings a cup.
Just like how a person is not defined by their worst moment, I don't believe a hockey player is defined by their worst moment. Though that was a pretty horrible moment, I agree

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08-27-2012, 11:38 PM
  #158
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Injury plagued player, no thanks.

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08-28-2012, 12:05 AM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Lilja played the PK. Ergo, he was not fully protected. He faced top-6 forwards who were on the PP.

Lidstrom was Lilja's partner for a very short time. That's why people can "keep coming back with this stuff"

Yes he was--- until Cheli left. And seriously, you're splitting hairs at this point.

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08-28-2012, 12:20 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Yes he was--- until Cheli left.
This is false. Lilja was getting top-4 PK minutes his entire time in Detroit. With and without Chelios. Had he been fully protected, he wouldn't have PK'd at all.


Quote:
And seriously, you're splitting hairs at this point.
You're the one who challenged me on the protection topic

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08-28-2012, 12:59 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
This is false. Lilja was getting top-4 PK minutes his entire time in Detroit. With and without Chelios. Had he been fully protected, he wouldn't have PK'd at all.




You're the one who challenged me on the protection topic

Actually, no, you're defining protection as being left out of certain situations. I don't accept your definition of protection. I'm saying that had he been paired with other future HOF material on the PK, he probably wouldn't have been able to hold that type of spot down. He was playing with frickin' Lidstrom and Chelios, chopped live on D, right?

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08-28-2012, 09:23 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Actually, no, you're defining protection as being left out of certain situations. I don't accept your definition of protection. I'm saying that had he been paired with other future HOF material on the PK, he probably wouldn't have been able to hold that type of spot down. He was playing with frickin' Lidstrom and Chelios, chopped live on D, right?
It doesn't matter if you accept my definition of protection or not, you're making it a semantics argument. My main point, the bottom line, is that Lilja, primarily because of his special teams work, saw more difficult situations than Lebda. In that sense, he was less protected than Lebda.

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08-28-2012, 10:47 AM
  #163
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Semantics?
Semantics is when one person argues that the ice cream too sweet and the other says it's too sugary

It's not semantics was one person argues the ice cream tasted really good and the other person says it tasted OK.

It's a fundamental difference in opinion.

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08-28-2012, 11:06 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Semantics?
Semantics is when one person argues that the ice cream too sweet and the other says it's too sugary

It's not semantics was one person argues the ice cream tasted really good and the other person says it tasted OK.

It's a fundamental difference in opinion.
Haha, backtracking after realizing you accidentally agreed with me?

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08-28-2012, 11:31 AM
  #165
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Wow, people really must not want Carlo Colaiacovo if they are going into this much depth to argue about Lilja...

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08-28-2012, 11:39 AM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Semantics?
Semantics is when one person argues that the ice cream too sweet and the other says it's too sugary

It's not semantics was one person argues the ice cream tasted really good and the other person says it tasted OK.

It's a fundamental difference in opinion.
Semantics is when people have different definitions of words. Really good to me is just OK to you. Us arguing about the definition of semantics is the definition.

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08-28-2012, 11:41 AM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Haha, backtracking after realizing you accidentally agreed with me?
I have no idea what you're talking about.

Lilja played OK in the 07 playoffs (IE, he was better than normal). He wasn't "really good."

There is a big difference there...It's not semantics, as Heaton said.

Lilja wasn't a good defenseman who went downhill after a concussion. He was a big slow defenseman who made bad decisions, had poor passing skills, and wasn't physical consistently enough to be effective.

Like I said, I was fine with Lilja in Detroit as long has he accepted bottom pairing money and as long as the coaching staff was willing to bench him to make room for youngsters when it was time for their chance

That's how you have to role with bottom pairing guys.

You don't pay them all $3.5M a year and let your prospects rot on the farm or lose them on waivers

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08-28-2012, 11:42 AM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Semantics is when people have different definitions of words. Really good to me is just OK to you. Us arguing about the definition of semantics is the definition.
Dude... So you say Hitler was a good guy, I say he was a bad guy...

that's just semantics?

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08-28-2012, 11:42 AM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I have no idea what you're talking about.

Lilja played OK in the 07 playoffs (IE, he was better than normal). He wasn't "really good."

There is a big difference there...It's not semantics, as Heaton said.

Lilja wasn't a good defenseman who went downhill after a concussion. He was a big slow defenseman who made bad decisions, had poor passing skills, and wasn't physical consistently enough to be effective.

Like I said, I was fine with Lilja in Detroit as long has he accepted bottom pairing money and as long as the coaching staff was willing to bench him to make room for youngsters when it was time for their chance

That's how you have to role with bottom pairing guys.

You don't pay them all $3.5M a year and let your prospects rot on the farm or lose them on waivers
What Heaton said.

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08-28-2012, 11:43 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by abparry87 View Post
Wow, people really must not want Carlo Colaiacovo if they are going into this much depth to argue about Lilja...
I am now just waiting to talk Derek Meech, have now had my fill of Lilja and Lebda. Now that was a guy that was protected/unprotected, better than Quincey at even strength I don't know. But Carlo should worry Kenny gets him out of St. John's, if we are talking all former Wings D-man we have dropped the ball and left poor Meech out.

Still don't want Carlo, happy this hasn't been signed, curious if they have pulled their offer since the team essentially said they were sitting tight until the CBA to a lot of the local media people covering them.

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08-28-2012, 11:48 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Dude... So you say Hitler was a good guy, I say he was a bad guy...

that's just semantics?
I am going to come up with an example to prove my point.

I use Hitler in example....



Come on CB, that is the best way to prove semantics?

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08-28-2012, 11:50 AM
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Dude... So you say Hitler was a good guy, I say he was a bad guy...

that's just semantics?
Exactly.

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08-28-2012, 12:01 PM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I am going to come up with an example to prove my point.

I use Hitler in example....



Come on CB, that is the best way to prove semantics?
To make it crystal clear? Yes.

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08-28-2012, 01:43 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
To make it crystal clear? Yes.
yeah because 'pretty good' and 'OK' are the same opposite ends of spectrum as 'good' and 'bad'. Crystal clear indeed.

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08-28-2012, 03:16 PM
  #175
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we could talk about meech as ssomebody here mentioned. good call by the way.


meech was a +1 player last season with 11 minutes on ice in average.
he got 2 penalty minutes per game.

there is our defensively responsible player with some grit.

i can see ken holland talking to the jets already for his backup solution if the lilja &lebda project willl fail this year.

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