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Old
08-28-2012, 12:30 PM
  #51
IceDaddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
No, eberle had a solid year. I have no idea if he's a career PPG guy but right now his value is higher. I wouldn't add a single thing though to subban and even straight up I wouldn't do it. Not a shot at eberle though, at all.
Of course he had a solid year. but that in no way makes him more valuable than Subban.

personally I would put thier value somewhere close but The Oilers would have to add 5-6 d-man who can play.

Just look at the Goligoski trade. Something like that

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Old
08-28-2012, 12:30 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
Even IF we assume that both teams were interested in this deal. There would be no + going to Edmonton. The + would be going the other way


A 23 year old #1 d-man is just more valuable than a young smallish winger. Oiler fans can huff and puff all they want but its a simple fact.
Your opinion hardly makes this "fact" there fanboy.
A #1 dman with character issues that have followed him since Jr. does not make make him more valuable than a clutch 21 yr old PPG winger.....I can play that game as well

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Old
08-28-2012, 12:38 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Homesick View Post
Your opinion hardly makes this "fact" there fanboy.
A #1 dman with character issues that have followed him since Jr. does not make make him more valuable than a clutch 21 yr old PPG winger.....I can play that game as well
While I also disagree with the poster you quoted, clinging on to a fallacy doesn't make any better. Eberle actually is undersized. Habs need to get bigger. With gallagher, Gionta and DD potentially on same team next year, it makes no sense to add more. I obviously understand what you were doing, but just a pet peeve of mine.

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Old
08-28-2012, 12:40 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
Of course he had a solid year. but that in no way makes him more valuable than Subban.

personally I would put thier value somewhere close but The Oilers would have to add 5-6 d-man who can play.

Just look at the Goligoski trade. Something like that
Neal wasn't a PPG winger before they got him.

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08-28-2012, 01:17 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
While I also disagree with the poster you quoted, clinging on to a fallacy doesn't make any better. Eberle actually is undersized. Habs need to get bigger. With gallagher, Gionta and DD potentially on same team next year, it makes no sense to add more. I obviously understand what you were doing, but just a pet peeve of mine.
You would think Eberle would a massive upgrade in size compared to those 3.

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Old
08-28-2012, 01:24 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Neal wasn't a PPG winger before they got him.

That is a fair statement.


But Subban is younger and better than Goligoski too.


Last edited by IceDaddy: 08-28-2012 at 01:29 PM.
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Old
08-28-2012, 01:27 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
You would think Eberle would a massive upgrade in size compared to those 3.
Heh... the Habs are pretty big upfront nowadays though, they can afford to have a couple of smurfs.

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Old
08-28-2012, 01:39 PM
  #58
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Eberle would instantly become the best player on the Habs.

Subban would be a d-man with upside and big question marks - he's good, I like him, but does he have a lot more to offer than Schultz? Perhaps the physical side, but Subban is also high-risk.

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08-28-2012, 02:11 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by oilsands View Post
Subban would be a d-man with upside and big question marks - he's good, I like him, but does he have a lot more to offer than Schultz? Perhaps the physical side, but Subban is also high-risk.
I don't see how Subban could be categorized as "high-risk"... worst case is he has somehow already plateaued at 23 and is any team's solid #2 defenseman.

I'd say he has a lot more to offer than Schultz in that he has already proven himself at the NHL level. Schultz may or may not pan out. Of course, his upside is that he becomes a top-pairing D as well, but lots of prospect defensemen ultimately fail to get there. Subban's already there.

I also like Subban's character, he seems really personable, enthusiastic and positive all the time, I think people are really getting the wrong impression about him in that respect. But I'm not his dad, so actually, as a hockey fan I think I like it better if fans in other cities are wrong/misguided about him on that score. It adds to the entertainment package.

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Old
08-28-2012, 03:18 PM
  #60
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Look at HabsRock's avatar. Subban has a winning smile. A winning smile that's going to stay in Montreal.

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08-28-2012, 03:26 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
You would think Eberle would a massive upgrade in size compared to those 3.
Agreed but mind you, I'm surprised you even like Eberle considering your opinion of the 'undersized' Plekanec

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08-28-2012, 03:33 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by oilsands View Post
Eberle would instantly become the best player on the Habs.

Subban would be a d-man with upside and big question marks - he's good, I like him, but does he have a lot more to offer than Schultz? Perhaps the physical side, but Subban is also high-risk.
Price would argue that.

What's subban's big question marks? High risk? I'm starting to think edmonton has zero media by the way you treat other canadian media.

This is starting to get borderline ridiculous. Mr. I refuse to go to the team that drafted me Schultz and I've never even played 1 single game in the ECHL, AHL or NHL has less question marks than a guy playing #1 minutes and producing? By all means, Schultz could end up excellent but what question marks on Subban's game is there relative to Schultz??

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08-28-2012, 03:33 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't see how Subban could be categorized as "high-risk"... worst case is he has somehow already plateaued at 23 and is any team's solid #2 defenseman.

I'd say he has a lot more to offer than Schultz in that he has already proven himself at the NHL level. Schultz may or may not pan out. Of course, his upside is that he becomes a top-pairing D as well, but lots of prospect defensemen ultimately fail to get there. Subban's already there.

I also like Subban's character, he seems really personable, enthusiastic and positive all the time, I think people are really getting the wrong impression about him in that respect. But I'm not his dad, so actually, as a hockey fan I think I like it better if fans in other cities are wrong/misguided about him on that score. It adds to the entertainment package.
If Subban matures he'll be a great D and a definite top pairing D. It is his maturity that is in question, not his potential.

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08-28-2012, 03:44 PM
  #64
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If Subban matures he'll be a great D and a definite top pairing D. It is his maturity that is in question, not his potential.
So you are hypothesising that a 23 year old Subban is unlikely to mature in time?

Everyone matures. All players go through these growing pains. What sets Subban aside is his compete level and yearning to be the best. He has now bulked up to 220lbs under the watchful eye of his fitness guru.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=6...id=DL|NHL|home

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Old
08-28-2012, 04:00 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't see how Subban could be categorized as "high-risk"... worst case is he has somehow already plateaued at 23 and is any team's solid #2 defenseman.

I'd say he has a lot more to offer than Schultz in that he has already proven himself at the NHL level. Schultz may or may not pan out. Of course, his upside is that he becomes a top-pairing D as well, but lots of prospect defensemen ultimately fail to get there. Subban's already there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Price would argue that.

What's subban's big question marks? High risk? I'm starting to think edmonton has zero media by the way you treat other canadian media.

This is starting to get borderline ridiculous. Mr. I refuse to go to the team that drafted me Schultz and I've never even played 1 single game in the ECHL, AHL or NHL has less question marks than a guy playing #1 minutes and producing? By all means, Schultz could end up excellent but what question marks on Subban's game is there relative to Schultz??
I'm just saying that Subban's likelihood to turn into an all-around or top-pairing dman is somewhat questionable. It is possible that he isn't able to inject more discipline or defensive awareness into his game. He is a bit of a riverboat gambler, which is great, but has limitations.

Schultz hasn't proven anything, but he is also a puckmoving offensive right hand defenseman. Is it really worth it to trade Eberle for a guy that we hope Schultz can turn into?

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Old
08-28-2012, 04:17 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilsands View Post
I'm just saying that Subban's likelihood to turn into an all-around or top-pairing dman is somewhat questionable. It is possible that he isn't able to inject more discipline or defensive awareness into his game. He is a bit of a riverboat gambler, which is great, but has limitations.

Schultz hasn't proven anything, but he is also a puckmoving offensive right hand defenseman. Is it really worth it to trade Eberle for a guy that we hope Schultz can turn into?
Subban is already a top-pairing d-man. Those that question his impact as one should read the following facts:

He led his team in both relative Corsi and Corsi On, while playing against the second highest quality of competition (him and Josh Gorges did the heavy lifting by a long-shot) and, like most Montreal players, was forced to start way more shifts in the defensive than the offensive zone. I donít like to use +/- numbers because they often tell the wrong story, but if you look at player numbers with and without Subban, you see that Erik Cole was +22 while on the ice with Subban, Max Pacioretty was +15, Tomas Plekanec was -1 and David Desharnais was +22. Without, the four were, respectively -8, -9, -11 and -7.

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08-28-2012, 04:17 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by oilsands View Post
I'm just saying that Subban's likelihood to turn into an all-around or top-pairing dman is somewhat questionable. It is possible that he isn't able to inject more discipline or defensive awareness into his game. He is a bit of a riverboat gambler, which is great, but has limitations.

Schultz hasn't proven anything, but he is also a puckmoving offensive right hand defenseman. Is it really worth it to trade Eberle for a guy that we hope Schultz can turn into?
Subban is already playing 24 minutes a game in all situations. 2nd best PK in the league despite 3rd last finish in the league. His offensive skills are well documented.

Subban is also a PMD right handed d-man.

I don't blame you, I never told you to trade eberle. I actually prefer to keep Subban right now so I have no issue. My issue is questioning subban's game to justify something. You can just say you prefer eberle.

If you want to wait for Schultz and see what he can do, I don't mind at all. Not in the least bit offended but if subban has question marks after playing top minutes for 2 years+ a playoff prior and dominating the AHL and doing well in WJC then what question marks does Schultz have? Be realistic. Subban is far and away more established and likely has the higher upside of the two as well.

If you go up a few posts you'll see a told a habs fan around the league eberle is worth more than subban because he had a better year and absolutely looks better right now. So clearly this isn't a "subban is better than everyone" type of thing. I just prefer subban because habs need a young D of his caliber and have pacioretty, eller, Desharnais, galchenyuk, leblanc, gallagher, etc... as potential young top 9 pieces up front(I say potential but many of them are established). I like habs future so I prefer to keep the balance right now, not a shot at eberle at all.

Either way, saying subban is not a top pairing d-man is like me calling eberle a borderline top 6 forward. It's that off. From now on the one question mark for subban is: Will he remain a #1-2 D or will he become montreal's franchise D? He's already #1 on montreal.

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Old
08-28-2012, 06:11 PM
  #68
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Maybe....

Montreal: J. Eberle + 2nd/3rd Round Pick

Edmonton: PK Subban, Jarred Tinordi + Sebastian Collberg
Are you serious, bro?

Eberle is amazing. Subban is our #1 defenseman. No way we add that much.

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Old
08-28-2012, 07:00 PM
  #69
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Hall,RNH,Eberle all have good value but i wouldn't trade P.K. straight up for any one of them.We have more need for P.K than the Oilers big 3.

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Old
08-28-2012, 07:37 PM
  #70
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Bruins fans also probably watch a lot more of Subban than Oiler fans do.
from reading this thread that's absolutely obvious

PK +++ for Eberle

Pacioretty +++ for Eberle


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Old
08-28-2012, 07:48 PM
  #71
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from reading this thread that's absolutely obvious

PK +++ for Eberle

Pacioretty +++ for Eberle

To be fair, trading Eberle in any deal where the main piece coming back from Montreal is Pacioretty is a complete non-starter.

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Old
08-28-2012, 08:05 PM
  #72
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Oh boy, that was a really informative post on why it wouldn't work, thanks for putting your time into it.
Why would you think Yak is more expendable than Eberle? He has a higher ceiling than Ebs, not to mention that he's almost 4 years younger. He looks like he might be the purest goal scorer out of all the 4 kids. IMO, his ceiling is as high as Nuge's. In other words, he's not going anywhere.

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Old
08-28-2012, 09:15 PM
  #73
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Your opinion hardly makes this "fact" there fanboy.
A #1 dman with character issues that have followed him since Jr. does not make make him more valuable than a clutch 21 yr old PPG winger.....I can play that game as well
Yes, hes been oh so clutch for a lottery team the last 2 years.. and he isnt a PPG player and probably wont be. Nail will take some of his PP time and his shooting % will surely go down.

I hate the Habs but Subban has more value than Eberle despite his break out season.

#1 Dman> 1st line winger

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Old
08-28-2012, 09:18 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by oilsands View Post
Eberle would instantly become the best player on the Habs.

Subban would be a d-man with upside and big question marks - he's good, I like him, but does he have a lot more to offer than Schultz? Perhaps the physical side, but Subban is also high-risk.
Ever hear of Cary Price?

Youre really going to compare a player who hasnt stepped on NHL ice to a 23 year old number one dman? Hes high risk? Hes already playing 24+ minutes in a top pairing role.

Come on.


Last edited by agreen23: 08-28-2012 at 09:28 PM.
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08-28-2012, 09:36 PM
  #75
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Way to many "rumours" regarding PK Subbans attitude have followed him his entire career. You get the exact opposite with Jordan Eberle.
I doubt the Oilers want a player like PK around their young core. Plus they have young defenseman coming up with Smid, Petry, Schultz, Klefbom, Marincin, and Gernat. They'll be fine
Self explanatory.

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