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Canes Keeper League Season 5

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Old
08-07-2012, 11:42 AM
  #251
Zombie Mike Murphy
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I think Yahoo does a variation on h2h - there was a minimum games played requirement (I think it was 2 or 3), and beyond that, games were weighted. So basically a guy that plays two games in a week counts twice as much as a guy that played 4 - so it evened out for schedule differences.

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08-07-2012, 12:03 PM
  #252
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I don't mean to sound super dismissive, but this isn't a H2H league...it's a roto league. There are a bazillion opportunities to play H2H, so I don't understand the need to change this one.

If you're motivated as such, start a new H2H keeper league and form it with the players that you have here and invite HFBoards folks to GM the teams that some of us don't want. I'm sure you'd have people lined up to do so. Similarly, if you don't want to play roto here, I'm sure we can backfill your GM position very quickly.

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08-07-2012, 03:04 PM
  #253
La Huracanista
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geehaad View Post
I don't mean to sound super dismissive, but this isn't a H2H league...it's a roto league. There are a bazillion opportunities to play H2H, so I don't understand the need to change this one.

If you're motivated as such, start a new H2H keeper league and form it with the players that you have here and invite HFBoards folks to GM the teams that some of us don't want. I'm sure you'd have people lined up to do so. Similarly, if you don't want to play roto here, I'm sure we can backfill your GM position very quickly.
I've only been in the league for one year but I'm pretty sure the idea is to have a league that the Canes HFBoards community will like. Unless the league originated among a particular group of Dave G's friends and expanded into a league for this community, because then that original group gets more say in my opinion. But I believe this is a league for the Canes HFBoards community, so we as a league should just vote on it or something like that.

I get that you feel really strongly about this being a roto league. But so far I see 5 comments in favor of H2H and 2 in favor of roto. If more members prefer H2H, then the league is just going to have to change. I don't want to start a new league. I want to play fantasy hockey with this group of people. Starting a new league doesn't make sense to me, and I honestly wouldn't want to run a semi-serious keeper league (major kudos to Dave G for doing it).

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08-07-2012, 04:36 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by geehaad View Post
I don't mean to sound super dismissive, but this isn't a H2H league...it's a roto league. There are a bazillion opportunities to play H2H, so I don't understand the need to change this one.

If you're motivated as such, start a new H2H keeper league and form it with the players that you have here and invite HFBoards folks to GM the teams that some of us don't want. I'm sure you'd have people lined up to do so. Similarly, if you don't want to play roto here, I'm sure we can backfill your GM position very quickly.
While i agree with the sentiment, it doesnt change the fact that almost half the teams have been virtually inactive by the allstar break for the past three years. It hasnt been competitive from top to bottom in any of the seasons ive played. once you are in the cellar in roto its very hard to dig out and thus people find better things to do with their time. At least in head to head you can more easily makeup ground on the leaders if you are putting forth the effort.

Im still in either way but id rather have a league where everyone stays on board well into the season making everything more competitive.

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08-07-2012, 06:26 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by faulkingdynamic View Post
While i agree with the sentiment, it doesnt change the fact that almost half the teams have been virtually inactive by the allstar break for the past three years. It hasnt been competitive from top to bottom in any of the seasons ive played. once you are in the cellar in roto its very hard to dig out and thus people find better things to do with their time. At least in head to head you can more easily makeup ground on the leaders if you are putting forth the effort.

Im still in either way but id rather have a league where everyone stays on board well into the season making everything more competitive.
This. I inherited a **** team from the previous owner last year and was out of it by like week three, wasn't really anything I could do about it.

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08-07-2012, 08:40 PM
  #256
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Unless the league originated among a particular group of Dave G's friends and expanded into a league for this community, because then that original group gets more say in my opinion.
Yup, me and bleedgreen are two of that group.

But really, it's Dave's league. He'll know what to do.

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08-07-2012, 09:32 PM
  #257
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Yeah we're part of the original group. I do generally stand against h2h. At the end of the day I'd do what everyone wants but I'd likely be a lot less interested. My trouble with this league is that no one is aggressive, IMO. Almost every year I do a huge trade where I WAY overpay to get the guy I want, it's the only way to get a real trade done at times. We pack rat away prospects that rarely pan out, and everyone seems to be afraid of being aggressive in a league that's free. I fully agree that we have a ton of roster spots, and you can make a strong argument we protect too many guys. Scoring is always an issue,but most are up for varying what scores.

I wouldn't be opposed to a radical shakeup of rosters, though that can be unfair to those on top. I won a year or two ago, when healthy my team is solid and I'd hate to give it up but if we have to "reset" somehow to make it better for the lower half I think it's the responsible thing to do. We'll see what Dave thinks. I am generally pretty strong against h2h, I do think the flat out best team should win. I'd also throw a few bucks in to keep it worth paying attention to. Not so much that we argue about anything though. I can see this being a really tough league to inherit a crap team from and change fortunes. I have some of my original players still. Getzlaf, lundquist...I picked up mikko koivu and zajac on waivers that first season. Maybe drastically reduce the protection list for one season.

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08-07-2012, 10:06 PM
  #258
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It's not that I'm trying to take over one of your keeper teams, but my vote goes to roto.

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08-07-2012, 10:52 PM
  #259
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At least there's going to be a real life lockout, so we'll have all year to work out the kinks in the Canes league CBA.



Seriously, I love fantasy hockey and this is my most interesting league in terms of competition. It's kind of sad that there's people on both sides who are threatening to leave, but I guess it must make sense to those people.


My thoughts:


1. Personally, my main issue with it is that the league keeps track of some borderline stats *and* gives them as much weight as goals or assists. NHL statisticians vary from arena to arena in how they track hits and blocked shots. Additionally, players who get lots of both (aka Luke Schenn) can suck irl.

I know this might not be a popular opinion, but +/- is equally failtastic in regards to the value of an individual player. +/- does keep track of goals for and against while on the ice...with 9 other skaters and 2 goalies. It typically varies a lot year to year (see: Jeff Schultz, Michael Del Zotto), and it can really punish good individual players on bad teams and reward really bad players playing in good situations.

I know that my opinion on +/- will be contentious, and that is where the points system comes in. Make a player with +1 worth .1, a player with -20 worth -2. Personally, I think +/- is worthless, but if it must have a value, we can at least make it proportionate.

Another issue that has to be addressed: Faceoff Wins make centers way too valuable. I know that centers are a bit more valuable and FWs are a good way of showing that, but can we please make them worth .X of 1 goal instead of worth one goal?


2. If we do want not-traditional but interesting stats stuff, how about we make this an irl salary cap league? That would be interesting and really reward attention to detail.

If Yahoo keeps track of TOI for fantasy purposes, we need to use that stat because it rewards the best players (especially defensemen, who are undervalued in fantasy). It would open a place for good shutdown defensemen.


3. In terms of keeper players, there absolutely needs to be a culling. Rosters also need to be made smaller so that there can be any waiver wire fun.

Starting point: 3 forwards, 2 defensemen, 1 goalie, 1 other skater (I don't like giving teams the options of keeping two goalies in such a large league).

I'm less sure about prospects, but perhaps we should have a system where we retain a player's rights for 5-6 years after their being drafted, so we don't immediately lose players right after they become good.


4. It's hard to do a real cash league when like half of its players are worried they're going to have no chance to win the big prize by a month into the season. If you want a cash league we'll probably have to go H2H.

The other option is to have 3 players finish in the money. If 12 teams pay $5 (total of $60), first place will win $40, second place will win $15, and third place will win $5. This might spice up roto to some extent, but I don't know if it's a real fix.

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08-07-2012, 11:12 PM
  #260
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Yeah I hate plus minus. With a passion but it sometimes just gives another stat. Culling is probably a good idea though 6 cuts deep. Keeping the prospects is a good idea. I don't know about salary cap, sounds complicated though maybe fun. Ive formed my team around centers due to the face offs, so personally I'm fine with it. It makes you prioritize your extra spots, a center or a fighter? Or a shot blocker? It gives you options, and a chance to make up ground if your team lacks stars, which the lower teams do. I guess we have to figure this out relatively soon. Keeping just five or six players would certainly add some pop to this draft! I would ask if we do that that we really make sure everyone can make the draft. I've had to auto draft parts almost all of them due to being in ems, including the majority of the first one. Not anyone's fault, just has been difficult for one reason or another every year. I for sure would want to be around for the whole draft this time. Definitely need to make sure everyone is on board with giving away so many players.

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08-28-2012, 02:54 PM
  #261
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Did I get booted from the league without my knowledge?!

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08-28-2012, 03:00 PM
  #262
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Scratch that I think I am okay. The link was taking me to the league from last season. I was about to say, after finally finishing above dead last and being 6th overall things were looking up!

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08-28-2012, 03:43 PM
  #263
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haha, it's all good man

will get things fired up to get started shortly. I definitely want more debate on this.

This is where I come down on things, RE: head-to-head

The reasons that it generally works fine in baseball and football are the reasons that it doesn't work at all in hockey (wouldn't know on basketball, don't give a damn about the NBA enough to try fantasy there). In football there's an equal number of games each week that are played between the teams players, and it's possible to gameplan around buys weeks in advance if needed. In baseball there are just simply so many games a week that it doesn't make a difference at all, and more depends on matchups. In hockey it's conceivable that a team could have a top line forward only two games in one week, while the other team could have one of theirs for four games. It still equals out to 82 games in the end, but the number of minimal game weeks vs multi game weeks for matchups can skew the standings significantly. It's the single biggest reason i stay away from head to heads in hockey aside from the HF chat league which I've been in for years now and don't pay even a tenth as much attention to.

That's where I come down on that debate at least. Though if there is a way to do points for the regular season and head to head (points or straight up) for a playoff that would be an acceptable compromise



now other areas I'd like to talk about before we get going with this:
Prospects: Is the HF definition enough games, or should it be raised again if not just flat out made to be 3 years (or even more?) after being drafted?

Roto vs Points: After a couple seasons of each style, I honestly think I like the points better, with a tweeked stat line of course (FOs worth 1/10th point, hits 1/10th pt, etc. But goals and assists worth 1, SOs worth 5, something like that). So Roto vs Points, and what's the best way to do points if we do that is certainly up for discussion.

Prospects team.... I don't think we need it anymore. Most everyone is good about policing what's going on with the prospects, and frankly it would encourage more watching of the transactions line by me to make sure stuff doesn't slip through the cracks. But I'm a benevolent dictator, I'm always willing to listen to peoples takes on things like this.

Stat categories: Any areas you guys would like to add or drop? I'd even be open to adding PP Points at this point.

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08-28-2012, 06:45 PM
  #264
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curious what you think about re organizing the teams a bit, dave. my team is fine either way, it would hurt to start over too far, but i would agree with earlier sentiments that people are inheriting bad teams which makes it harder to care about it. i definitely agree lowering the amount of kept players would make the draft much more interesting.

i would do a complete reboot if it came down to it, though im sure just doing at least one painful draft where we arent permitted to hide too many guys would be a fair way to re level the playing surface for the group.

i like pp points. i get some of the argument against, just seems if we are including things like blocked shots than pp pts should be allowed. im fine with weighting stats categories to emphasize importance. otherwise i like the way we do it now. goals, assists, wins by goalies, these should be the most important ones. i like faceoff stats, as it makes your decision on who you play in your extra spots important.

no prospects team is fine with me. whatever everyone wnats with the rookie game count is fine too, ive lost a couple of guys that way and would like to raise it, but that may play into the lack of movement. its nice people have to make tough choices. this is a very cushy league that way.


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08-28-2012, 06:54 PM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
curious what you think about re organizing the teams a bit, dave. my team is fine either way, it would hurt to start over too far, but i would agree with earlier sentiments that people are inheriting bad teams which makes it harder to care about it. i definitely agree lowering the amount of kept players would make the draft much more interesting.

i would do a complete reboot if it came down to it, though im sure just doing at least one painful draft where we arent permitted to hide too many guys would be a fair way to re level the playing surface for the group.
I'm sure some of the guys that are climbing after all these years (Vagrant) would be kindof ticked about it, but a reboot isn't out of the question. Definite compromise that we could do as far as that goes is keep 5 players and 3 prospects from our teams, but re-draft everyone else. But that would essentially be the same as it is now under new rules.

And I do agree on the issue of keepers. It's damn hard for a team to move from the bottom to the top with as many as can be kept right now.

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08-28-2012, 07:01 PM
  #266
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5 and 3 could work, it cuts deep though! i would think that would give vagrant enough of his core but we'll get his opinion. i would definitely lose a couple of guys ive had since we started.

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08-28-2012, 07:23 PM
  #267
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I definitely think we need to reduce the number of bench players.

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08-28-2012, 07:30 PM
  #268
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just tossing out 5 and 3 as a hypothetical. 7 and 5 or many other combinations including keeping all our prospects would work for me if you guys want to do a reboot.

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08-28-2012, 08:13 PM
  #269
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just tossing out 5 and 3 as a hypothetical. 7 and 5 or many other combinations including keeping all our prospects would work for me if you guys want to do a reboot.
I would not be in favor of tossing in the prospects. I don't care so much about the rest of the specifics...whatever y'all like is probably going to be fine by me.

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08-28-2012, 09:11 PM
  #270
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I would be down for whatever keeps the league healthy. I have taken some lumps but I have also gotten a few good guys in return that I would like to keep. It's a give and take though and there would be no real point in making it a keeper if we didn't keep a few guys, eh?

It's a tough balance, but I agree the number of keepers needs to come down from last season. It basically neutered the draft.

As far as prospects are concerned, I don't like the one game free for all refreshing yahoo to see when it rolls over so you can add a guy before anybody else. I like the idea of knowing as young players come into the league, they have a home that we drafted to help get guys better. In some ways, it really only matters for the high high end guys so if you wanted to make the draft shorter and the number of "keepers" in your prospect pool smaller then I would be for that move. But the concept of people scrambling to add rookies, or taking rookies in the regular player draft, is just a wrinkle that I don't really care to see added. Like last season with Sven Bartschi getting called up... if he wasn't property of somebody already I could have picked him up and made him a keeper based upon an emergency recall. Just for situations like that, I think our black aces should be retained.

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08-29-2012, 08:26 AM
  #271
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As far as prospects are concerned, I don't like the one game free for all refreshing yahoo to see when it rolls over so you can add a guy before anybody else. I like the idea of knowing as young players come into the league, they have a home that we drafted to help get guys better. In some ways, it really only matters for the high high end guys so if you wanted to make the draft shorter and the number of "keepers" in your prospect pool smaller then I would be for that move. But the concept of people scrambling to add rookies, or taking rookies in the regular player draft, is just a wrinkle that I don't really care to see added. Like last season with Sven Bartschi getting called up... if he wasn't property of somebody already I could have picked him up and made him a keeper based upon an emergency recall. Just for situations like that, I think our black aces should be retained.
I'm not sure I understand this, but maybe it's because you used the word "prospects", and maybe I'd understand it if you chose "free agents" instead...? I'm not sure how reducing the number of keeper prospects would help that...seems that it create even *more* free-for-all events.

Granted, there is hypothetical situation where a player isn't someone's property and hasn't yet been added to Yahoo's list of NHL players. Maybe this is what you're referring to...? I'm not sure it's a problem that can be solved, though...if he wasn't drafted, he's a free agent, and all's fair whenever Yahoo adds him. You just have to be on top of things when he gets added to Yahoo. And really...how are you going to police that? It seems quite impossible.

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08-29-2012, 11:06 AM
  #272
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I think if we drop this to a much smaller keeper group on the actual team, it will have the impact we are looking for (are we all looking for it?) and we don't have to change the prospects much.

How about once the guy hits the games played limit he has to be on the main roster or released? Instead of getting till the end of the year?

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08-29-2012, 11:57 AM
  #273
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How about we reward good drafting? You can keep a player you have drafted until he is 24 or something (long enough to get a few good seasons out of him). Besides that, have 5 keepers + 1 goalie.

This system would mimic real life salary value really well: the entry level deals and RFA contracts usually mean that young players stick with the team that drafted them, and then they come up on their UFA years.


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08-29-2012, 12:33 PM
  #274
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I would like to see longer rights to prospects, because right now nearly all of these guys is lost after a season because it's rare that they are immediately worth a keeper spot.

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09-03-2012, 06:29 PM
  #275
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I just want to get a first draft of the changes that seem widely agreed upon:

1. Less keepers. I suggest 4 forwards, 2 defensemen, 1 utility, and 1 goalie spot. More than one goalie keeper is going to make drafting goalies a non-factor in a league of this size, and so that whole aspect of fantasy hockey would be pretty stagnant.

2. Smaller teams. (6 forwards, 4 defense, 2 utility, 2 goalie, 5 bench spots?)

3. Longer rights to prospects. I suggest that if a prospect turns 24 years of age before a season begins, then he must either be kept or other teams can draft him.

In the case of undrafted free agents or older prospects (Jeremy Welsh, Matt Read, Roman Cervenka), they are OK for just two years, as long as a team uses a draft pick on them.

4. Nerf stupid or "real time stats" through use of points system. Everybody loves the points system.

I think if we could move this along it would be great, so please explain any issues you have with these changes.

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