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RDS: Flyers/Habs talking about Subban (Mod Warning #441)

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Old
08-28-2012, 09:44 PM
  #276
MasterDecoy
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Originally Posted by Sevren View Post
Not sure if serious
simple: 7 fights in 2 years, ergo, he fights. he's not very good at it though

just because he doesn't take on heavy weights doesn't mean he doesn't fight. he couldn't, and he shouldn't.

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08-28-2012, 10:01 PM
  #277
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I like where he lead them to last season
You know that's just teasing us habs fans Fact of matter is no one guy can make up a team. Habs had a bad year, subban was part of the team, it happens. Gionta, Cole, Gill, etc.. all cup winners were part of that team and it didn't work out.

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08-28-2012, 10:18 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
You know that's just teasing us habs fans Fact of matter is no one guy can make up a team. Habs had a bad year, subban was part of the team, it happens. Gionta, Cole, Gill, etc.. all cup winners were part of that team and it didn't work out.
Yeah, just having a little fun here

But still, a leader? I doubt the veterans like Gionta, Gomez and Plekanec see PK as a leader. I just can't see them following him. He has plenty of time to mature and win everyone's respect, but for now it is very unlikely that he's a leader in that dressing room.

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08-28-2012, 10:21 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Sevren View Post
Yeah, just having a little fun here

But still, a leader? I doubt the veterans like Gionta, Gomez and Plekanec see PK as a leader. I just can't see them following him. He has plenty of time to mature and win everyone's respect, but for now it is very unlikely that he's a leader in that dressing room.
Subban is pretty much 100% on the spot in terms of maturity off the ice. On the ice, he needs a little work but it will come. I agree though, I doubt Cole and company see him as a leader just yet. The biggest complaint with subban is the penalties he takes and trying to do too much and being in the middle of things. Cole was asked what he'd say for advice and it was basically not to react to the constant agitation or scrutiny and be professional and let it slide and focus. Subban just needs to let it go a bit and focus on what he can do rather than trying to do too much.

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08-29-2012, 01:15 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Are you kidding me with this? Gudbranson, OEL, Fowler in the same basket as Pietrangelo? Not to mention Subban is better than all three of them, yet according to you he's not a better 'mold' (whatever that means, you'll have to explain it because it sounds like complete ********) to be a no1 D compared to them?
whoa, sorry guy. everyone throw your opinions out the door. this guy's got it.

Nowhere did i claim any of the thing's you're accusing me of, by the way. simply putting Pietrangelo on a list with other players who happen to play the same position doesn't mean i think said players are "in the same basket". it means i was making a list.

also, it'd be hard for gudbranson or oel or fowler to be "better" than subban in your mind, since i'm assuming your basing your opinion off of statistics. but just like you're able to formulate your own opinion, i'm able to churn up one as well, and in my opinion the 3 of them have a better shot at being the #1 defenseman the flyers need than subban.

understand?

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08-29-2012, 01:26 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
whoa, sorry guy. everyone throw your opinions out the door. this guy's got it.

Nowhere did i claim any of the thing's you're accusing me of, by the way. simply putting Pietrangelo on a list with other players who happen to play the same position doesn't mean i think said players are "in the same basket". it means i was making a list.

also, it'd be hard for gudbranson or oel or fowler to be "better" than subban in your mind, since i'm assuming your basing your opinion off of statistics. but just like you're able to formulate your own opinion, i'm able to churn up one as well, and in my opinion the 3 of them have a better shot at being the #1 defenseman the flyers need than subban.

understand?
Understand what? The fact that I'm basing my opinion on reality and that yours is based on this feeling you have? I am waiting for justification on your part, not only for OEL but for Gudbranson too now. You haven't come up with a single legitimate reason as to why you think they are better poised to be no1 defenders more than Subban. Especially as far as the Flyers are concerned. Nice backtracking on your earlier statement too, you clearly dropped Pietrangelo's name with the likes of Fowler, OEL and Gudbranson.

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Old
08-29-2012, 02:32 PM
  #282
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There's probably no plus going either way. Both are two young players of which the other team has a need for and whose ceilings are quite high. Which one has more potential? There's a debate but only time will tell at this point. The proposal kind of reminds me of the Schenn-JVR trade. The trade value was close enough that nothing additional was added from either side.

I must say though, Subban would instantly become the fan favourite in Philly.

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08-29-2012, 03:08 PM
  #283
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There's probably no plus going either way. Both are two young players of which the other team has a need for and whose ceilings are quite high. Which one has more potential? There's a debate but only time will tell at this point. The proposal kind of reminds me of the Schenn-JVR trade. The trade value was close enough that nothing additional was added from either side.

I must say though, Subban would instantly become the fan favourite in Philly.
IMO with the drafting of a center in Galchenyuk which filled a long time need for the Habs the Habs would need Subban way more than what that would Couturier now.

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08-29-2012, 04:06 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
simple: 7 fights in 2 years, ergo, he fights. he's not very good at it though

just because he doesn't take on heavy weights doesn't mean he doesn't fight. he couldn't, and he shouldn't.
Actually Subban is in the top 30 for fights from defenseman over the last two years. For teams' number one defenseman he's with Phanuef and Chara as the most frequent fighters.

Defensemen pretty much don't fight, they're too valuable to lose for 5 minutes compared to forwards. This goes double for top defensemen.

So anyone calling on Subban to be more of a fighter probably doesn't know what he's talking about. Shea Weber doesn't fight to back up his body checking, why should Subban be held to that standard?

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08-29-2012, 04:10 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Gert B Frobe View Post
Couturier for PK Subban straight up? Holmgren would never do that deal and neither would I.
Ranger fan here. Hate both teams. Don't have any love for either player. The flyers would definitely have to add to make that deal happen. Couts hype is off the charts. Subban, although a wild card is extremely talented, more proven to this point and a defenseman. Not even close, couts+ to make this work.

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08-29-2012, 04:13 PM
  #286
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Am I the only one here who thinks Subban is actually a great player that has potential? If the Habs can rebuild from the disaster that happened last season and come out strong we will see what Subban actually has in him. About the proposal, I'd say no.

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08-29-2012, 04:16 PM
  #287
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IMO with the drafting of a center in Galchenyuk which filled a long time need for the Habs the Habs would need Subban way more than what that would Couturier now.
Hate to agree with a Habs fan, but with Galchenyuk on board, this trade makes much more sense for Philly than it does for Mtl.

With regards to value, I feel that Subban for Coutourier is a fair basis for a trade...if one side has to add I would say it would be Philly because PK is more established or proven...nothing significant mind you, just a draft pick 3rd rounder maybe? At this point, I think it's safer to predict PK will be a #1 defender where as Coutourier might be more of a Jordan Staal type vs an Eric Staal type...in other words an amazing #2 center perhaps a #1, but not necassarily a bonafide #1.

I like Coutourier a lot, but I don't see any reason why he has become the most untouchable player since Mike Richards.

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08-29-2012, 05:02 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Understand what? The fact that I'm basing my opinion on reality and that yours is based on this feeling you have? I am waiting for justification on your part, not only for OEL but for Gudbranson too now. You haven't come up with a single legitimate reason as to why you think they are better poised to be no1 defenders more than Subban. Especially as far as the Flyers are concerned. Nice backtracking on your earlier statement too, you clearly dropped Pietrangelo's name with the likes of Fowler, OEL and Gudbranson.
im a little unclear as to what facts predict the future of a bunch of highly touted defense prospects. i don't like subbans game. that's my opinion. the mere fact that it differs from yours doesn't give you any sort of reason to talk to me like i have no idea what i'm talking about.

second of all, i've already explained that the mere fact that i listed pietrangelos name with a few other guys who are obviously below him in terms of current accomplishment and development doesn't, in any way, mean i was claiming that they're on his level at their own respective junctures. i don't really know why you're so upset over this, but that's all i'm going to say on the matter. obviously pietrangelo is better than oel, gudbranson and fowler right now. but i do believe that oel, gudbrandson and fowler have the ability to be the types of players i'd want in a #1, much like pietrangelo is on the road to being. i don't really know how you're not getting this. so essentially you're attacking me because i don't think subban will be a legit #1, which i've already denoted as a subjective opinion, and you have an issue with my listing techniques? ok then.

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08-29-2012, 05:28 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Buffalo Vacant View Post
Am I the only one here who thinks Subban is actually a great player that has potential? If the Habs can rebuild from the disaster that happened last season and come out strong we will see what Subban actually has in him. About the proposal, I'd say no.
I do. Extremely underrated on these boards probably because he plays for Montreal and his team picked 3rd overall.

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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
I like Coutourier a lot, but I don't see any reason why he has become the most untouchable player since Mike Richards.
Agreed. He's not even close to being the most untouchable player on the Flyers and if Couturier could get the Flyers' a bonafide #1 d-man who would fit perfectly with the team and the system, I'd be 100% behind trading him or in general any player on the Flyers outside of Giroux. It just has to make sense and the pros have to outweigh the cons. I don't know if Subban fits under that description. But it would definitely be Couturier+ for Subban value wise.

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08-29-2012, 05:37 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
im a little unclear as to what facts predict the future of a bunch of highly touted defense prospects. i don't like subbans game. that's my opinion. the mere fact that it differs from yours doesn't give you any sort of reason to talk to me like i have no idea what i'm talking about.

second of all, i've already explained that the mere fact that i listed pietrangelos name with a few other guys who are obviously below him in terms of current accomplishment and development doesn't, in any way, mean i was claiming that they're on his level at their own respective junctures. i don't really know why you're so upset over this, but that's all i'm going to say on the matter. obviously pietrangelo is better than oel, gudbranson and fowler right now. but i do believe that oel, gudbrandson and fowler have the ability to be the types of players i'd want in a #1, much like pietrangelo is on the road to being. i don't really know how you're not getting this. so essentially you're attacking me because i don't think subban will be a legit #1, which i've already denoted as a subjective opinion, and you have an issue with my listing techniques? ok then.
I already explained this in my first replies to you, not going to repeat what's already been said.

Subban IS already a legit #1, he plays in all situations and is a shutdown defender who can rack up the points. OEL, Gudbranson, Fowler aren't there yet. You are entitled to your opinion but it doesn't mean it isn't a bad one.

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08-29-2012, 05:41 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
im a little unclear as to what facts predict the future of a bunch of highly touted defense prospects. i don't like subbans game. that's my opinion. the mere fact that it differs from yours doesn't give you any sort of reason to talk to me like i have no idea what i'm talking about.

second of all, i've already explained that the mere fact that i listed pietrangelos name with a few other guys who are obviously below him in terms of current accomplishment and development doesn't, in any way, mean i was claiming that they're on his level at their own respective junctures. i don't really know why you're so upset over this, but that's all i'm going to say on the matter. obviously pietrangelo is better than oel, gudbranson and fowler right now. but i do believe that oel, gudbrandson and fowler have the ability to be the types of players i'd want in a #1, much like pietrangelo is on the road to being. i don't really know how you're not getting this. so essentially you're attacking me because i don't think subban will be a legit #1, which i've already denoted as a subjective opinion, and you have an issue with my listing techniques? ok then.
Well, to be fair,if I said Leblanc would be better than Couturier and listed him with the likes of Turris, Brassard, and Ric Staal, and said they were all better than Couturier, you might have an equivalent reaction to "poetryinmotion". When you look at a player an make it seem like other players are better without any way to substantiate your opinion, you leave yourself open to these kinds of attacks. Some people feel like you are being insulting for no good reason, and then want a reason. I am not "poetryinmotion", but I have seen him post, and he is usually rather fair. My guess is that he feels you are simply dismissing Subban for no good reason, and would like to have a reason beyond your "feeling" that Fowler and the others will be better than Subban.

Of course, you do not HAVE to give "poetryinmotion" an answer. You can just ignore him. I am curious as well as to why you would take OEL, Gudbranson, and Fowler (he so does NOT seem like a Philly type of d-man to me!!) before Subban. Statistically, and based on having watched them all play multiple times, I do believe Subban IS better, and will be better. I like all of the guys you listed, and think they all have great attributes. I do believe Subban is already a better commodity, and will continue to be so. Of course, you mgith call me biased because I am a die hard Habs fan, but I hope you consider that I actually am open to discussion on the topic.

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08-29-2012, 05:45 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
im a little unclear as to what facts predict the future of a bunch of highly touted defense prospects. i don't like subbans game. that's my opinion. the mere fact that it differs from yours doesn't give you any sort of reason to talk to me like i have no idea what i'm talking about.

second of all, i've already explained that the mere fact that i listed pietrangelos name with a few other guys who are obviously below him in terms of current accomplishment and development doesn't, in any way, mean i was claiming that they're on his level at their own respective junctures. i don't really know why you're so upset over this, but that's all i'm going to say on the matter. obviously pietrangelo is better than oel, gudbranson and fowler right now. but i do believe that oel, gudbrandson and fowler have the ability to be the types of players i'd want in a #1, much like pietrangelo is on the road to being. i don't really know how you're not getting this. so essentially you're attacking me because i don't think subban will be a legit #1, which i've already denoted as a subjective opinion, and you have an issue with my listing techniques? ok then.
You can have your opinion on Subban, but just to let you know, he's already a #1 (with the habs), he's good offensively and defensively.

Subjectively I think u can't hate Subban's game, but u can hate the person

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08-29-2012, 06:09 PM
  #293
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Is there a typo where the '+' is located?

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08-29-2012, 07:31 PM
  #294
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Is there a typo where the '+' is located?
Nope..

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08-29-2012, 07:33 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
im a little unclear as to what facts predict the future of a bunch of highly touted defense prospects. i don't like subbans game. that's my opinion. the mere fact that it differs from yours doesn't give you any sort of reason to talk to me like i have no idea what i'm talking about.

second of all, i've already explained that the mere fact that i listed pietrangelos name with a few other guys who are obviously below him in terms of current accomplishment and development doesn't, in any way, mean i was claiming that they're on his level at their own respective junctures. i don't really know why you're so upset over this, but that's all i'm going to say on the matter. obviously pietrangelo is better than oel, gudbranson and fowler right now. but i do believe that oel, gudbrandson and fowler have the ability to be the types of players i'd want in a #1, much like pietrangelo is on the road to being. i don't really know how you're not getting this. so essentially you're attacking me because i don't think subban will be a legit #1, which i've already denoted as a subjective opinion, and you have an issue with my listing techniques? ok then.
You don't like Subban's game, you're totally entitled to that opinion. Having said that, it doesn't mean that others can't.

What I mean by that is that there are 30 teams in the NHL. If all of them have a #1 defenseman, that's 30 defensemen. Subban is the Habs' #1 defenseman, period.

To be fair, some teams may have two #1 defensemen caliber players on their roster. But even then, Subban certainly is, after only two seasons and tons of room to improve, easily in the NHL's top 30 defensemen... whether you like his game or not.

Last but not least, if Subban was playing for the Flyers, he would be a fan favourite in no time. Exactly the type of player the fan base loves. Swagger with skills to back it up!

It would undoubtedly take more than Couturier to get him... in my humble opinion.

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08-29-2012, 10:19 PM
  #296
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Last but not least, if Subban was playing for the Flyers, he would be a fan favourite in no time. Exactly the type of player the fan base loves. Swagger with skills to back it up!
Please explain. 1 of the fan favorites on D was Mark Howe.

Many posters still assume Philly is all about the Broad Street Bullies when that was decades ago. Many fans hated Carcillo yet he fit perfectly into the mold you claim still exists.

Yet, they don't associate Boston with the Big Bad Bruins.

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08-29-2012, 10:29 PM
  #297
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Please explain. 1 of the fan favorites on D was Mark Howe.

Many posters still assume Philly is all about the Broad Street Bullies when that was decades ago. Many fans hated Carcillo yet he fit perfectly into the mold you claim still exists.

Yet, they don't associate Boston with the Big Bad Bruins.
It's just a perceived image, I view the Flyers like that too.. dirty and physical, but less so now that Pronger is gone.

Still got that little rat Briere and Hartnell though.

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08-29-2012, 10:31 PM
  #298
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It's just a perceived image, I view the Flyers like that too.. dirty and physical, but less so now that Pronger is gone.

Still got that little rat Briere and Hartnell though.
I actually don't feel Hartnell is like a rat at all. Briere I'll give you though. He is as sneaky as it gets.

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08-29-2012, 10:34 PM
  #299
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I actually don't feel Hartnell is like a rat at all. Briere I'll give you though. He is as sneaky as it gets.
I meant Briere was, not Hartnell. I actually respect him, legit PWF.

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08-29-2012, 11:25 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Zaide View Post
More like Subban+ for Couturier. Couturier is a much more proven asset than Subban is and has a higher ceiling too.
this is an incorrect statement.


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