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Old
08-23-2012, 01:33 PM
  #26
Jame
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
Do you remember when he was completely invisible for the first 35 games of the season? I like Ennis, but let's not pretend he's something he isn't yet. Gagner and Ennis are fairly close right now.
yes they are... (but not to people who look at 20 games at center)

It's no different then when stafford scored 22 pts in the final 22 games of his rookie season...

in that offseason, these same people wouldn't have traded him for Ryan Kesler

can't see past the most recent 15 minutes...

Ennis for Bobby Ryan... all day, every day

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08-23-2012, 02:29 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
yes they are... (but not to people who look at 20 games at center)

It's no different then when stafford scored 22 pts in the final 22 games of his rookie season...

in that offseason, these same people wouldn't have traded him for Ryan Kesler

can't see past the most recent 15 minutes...

Ennis for Bobby Ryan... all day, every day
Ennis for Ryan, yes. Ennis, Leopold, Stafford, a first round, a prospect and the Pegula daughters for Ryan? No.

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08-23-2012, 02:50 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Wisent42 View Post
Ennis for Ryan, yes. Ennis, Leopold, Stafford, a first round, a prospect and the Pegula daughters for Ryan? No.
Again, it goes back to the OP, why would you trade a position of weakness to a position of strength? Andif you want to be stubborn and call it a position of depth instead, it doesn't matter. Dealing a center for a wing makes no sense.

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Old
08-23-2012, 04:10 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Again, it goes back to the OP, why would you trade a position of weakness to a position of strength? Andif you want to be stubborn and call it a position of depth instead, it doesn't matter. Dealing a center for a wing makes no sense.
i thought in the original post, the sabres outcome was something like:

Out : Ennis, Defensemen, Prospect
In : Ryan and Gagner

in which case, the Sabres talent at center is maintained.

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Old
08-23-2012, 05:08 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Wisent42 View Post
Ennis for Ryan, yes. Ennis, Leopold, Stafford, a first round, a prospect and the Pegula daughters for Ryan? No.
How about one Pegula daughter. Anaheim can pick.

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Old
08-23-2012, 05:13 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i thought in the original post, the sabres outcome was something like:

Out : Ennis, Defensemen, Prospect
In : Ryan and Gagner

in which case, the Sabres talent at center is maintained.
I'm with you. If they could bring in Gagner and move out Ennis for Ryan (+D and/or prospects), then they will have made out exceptionally well. Gagner in and Ennis out becomes a wash. You're replacing one 22-year-old, undersized pivot for another. Ennis has more upside, but Gagner has played his career at center (not just a handful of games). Those points balance out. Both are likely career 2Cs anyway.

And then you're significantly upgrading the wing both in terms of goal production and size while only dealing depth from the backend and presumably D prospects from a rich pipeline.

So in conclusion, I like that proposal, though whether or not it could actually happen is a story for another day.

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08-23-2012, 07:34 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhett4 View Post
I'm with you. If they could bring in Gagner and move out Ennis for Ryan (+D and/or prospects), then they will have made out exceptionally well. Gagner in and Ennis out becomes a wash. You're replacing one 22-year-old, undersized pivot for another. Ennis has more upside, but Gagner has played his career at center (not just a handful of games). Those points balance out. Both are likely career 2Cs anyway.

And then you're significantly upgrading the wing both in terms of goal production and size while only dealing depth from the backend and presumably D prospects from a rich pipeline.

So in conclusion, I like that proposal, though whether or not it could actually happen is a story for another day.
I don't think Ennis is a career 2C. The kid is unbelievably talented and I definitely see 70+ points in his future. Gagner and Ennis may be a wash next year, but we won't be competing for a cup next year. The players on the team absolutely love him, and he brings a lot of energy to the team.

Bobby Ryan would be a great pick up for sure, but I believe Ennis will be the better player in the long run.

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Old
08-23-2012, 08:06 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i thought in the original post, the sabres outcome was something like:

Out : Ennis, Defensemen, Prospect
In : Ryan and Gagner

in which case, the Sabres talent at center is maintained.
You are part of a very small minority that believes Gagner = Ennis. I will go with the very large majority and say that the talent was downgraded. Of course, I've watched you argue that Gerbe > Ennis, so it's clear that you have a bias.

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Old
08-23-2012, 08:48 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
You are part of a very small minority that believes Gagner = Ennis.
based on what? your poll


Quote:
I will go with the very large majority and say that the talent was downgraded.
the only downgrade is on the basis of the growth you expect from ennis... but you thought he was going to score 80+ last year... but your not biased or anything

Quote:
Of course, I've watched you argue that Gerbe > Ennis, so it's clear that you have a bias.
no you haven't

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08-23-2012, 10:21 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havok89 View Post
I don't think Ennis is a career 2C. The kid is unbelievably talented and I definitely see 70+ points in his future. Gagner and Ennis may be a wash next year, but we won't be competing for a cup next year. The players on the team absolutely love him, and he brings a lot of energy to the team.

Bobby Ryan would be a great pick up for sure, but I believe Ennis will be the better player in the long run.
Ennis might be a super talented player (can't disagree there) with a lot of upside, but projecting a 5'9" player that converted to center for 15 games as a No. 1 center in this league seems to be a stretch. He has 70-80 point talent, but will he reach that and will it be at wing or center if he does? Those are big questions at this point. Ennis played great down by the stretch, but it's a tiny sample size. If you can bring in a 2C and use Ennis as bait to land that first-line powerforward this team needs, you do it.

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Old
08-23-2012, 10:26 PM
  #36
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Didn't we just go through the whole Gagner / Ennis referendum thread a couple weeks ago?

Is the CBA done yet?

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Old
08-23-2012, 11:05 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
based on what? your poll




the only downgrade is on the basis of the growth you expect from ennis... but you thought he was going to score 80+ last year... but your not biased or anything



no you haven't
You didn't necessarily say that Gerbe is better than Ennis, but you did argue that Gerbe would have a greater impact on the team than Ennis would.

I remember this distinctly because I was the one arguing with you.

Man... The offseason needs to end already..

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Old
08-23-2012, 11:21 PM
  #38
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Sign me up for the Ennis tops out as a 2C club. I think he's better than Gagner but he won't ever be a true 1C. A Derek Roy clone at best. That's if he reaches his ceiling. But it's just my opinion.

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Old
08-24-2012, 05:46 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
Until Ennis got hurt...he was downright bad. Getting hurt was the best thing to happen with him--it probably helped avoid a huge sophomore slump.
I'm not entirely sure, but early on when ennis wasn't producing, wasn't that the stretch of games when stafford missed what seemed like 20 wide open nets a game? (Yes over exaggerated, but it just seemed that way to me)

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Old
08-24-2012, 06:46 AM
  #40
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Ennis for Ryan I'd consider, but not Ennis for Gagner.
Problem with Gagner is, he doesn't really have an area of true elite skill, AFAIR.
He obviously isn't top end gritty or physical due to his size, but he isn't exactly the fastest guy or most flashy puckhandler either. Neither does he have the instincts of an elite scorer. Not to take anything away from him, but outside of his odd multi-point game here and there, he doesn't look like the guy who can carry a team's offense.

Not so with Ennis. We know his flaws, we know he's undersized and sub-par defensively, but when he's on his game he actually can be the catalyst of a team's offense. Also, I'd consider his puckhandling and passing skills elite.

Contrary to most people here, I don't think that Ennis has to be a C necessarily. If all of Hodgson, Grigorenko and Girgensons pan out, why not put him back to wing? It's good to see he can thrive as an offensive center, but it's not like he didn't show his skills when he played wing.

I'd say Ennis' potential at center is Briere. On the wing it's St. Louis. I'd be more than happy with either. Also, something about the way he carries himself both on and off the ice, tells me he is very likely to actually reach his potential.

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Old
08-24-2012, 07:59 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umbertovanek View Post
Contrary to most people here, I don't think that Ennis has to be a C necessarily. If all of Hodgson, Grigorenko and Girgensons pan out, why not put him back to wing? It's good to see he can thrive as an offensive center, but it's not like he didn't show his skills when he played wing.
Same as my thoughts. Until Girgs and Grigs, Ennis is a stopgap center. He can replace Vanek as our top line top winger once Grigs is our first line center.

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Old
08-24-2012, 08:02 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
based on what? your poll




the only downgrade is on the basis of the growth you expect from ennis... but you thought he was going to score 80+ last year... but your not biased or anything



no you haven't
Nice try, definitely never said that. I admit a bias for Ennis, I think he's going to be a great player. You'd have to be blind to not think so after how he carried the offense down the stretch.

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Old
08-24-2012, 10:05 AM
  #43
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Quincey, 27, helped develop O’Reilly, who is destined to become the last Avalanche player under contract for 2012-13. “Factor” is an restricted free agent who is coming off his three-year, entry-level contract, and a breakout 2011-12 season in which he led the Avs in scoring and was tops in the NHL with 104 takeaways. Word is he wants a five-year deal and the Avs are only offering three. He figures to make between $3 million and $4.5 million annually.

“All I know is, he’s one of the best hockey players I’ve played with and by far one of the top five good guys off the ice,” Quincey said of O’Reilly, 21. “He’s one of my favorite hockey players and hopefully he gets a good deal because he’s a huge part of that hockey team. He’s by far the hardest worker I’ve ever played with. He’s an unbelievable guy.”

Quincey added: “You have no idea of how the negotiations are going. That’s between him and his agent and the team. Outside the handful of people in the know, we’re just guessing. The facts are, he’s a great hockey player and great person and there’s no way he’s not going to sign. The (RFA) offer sheet thing is very rare and I know teams don’t like to do it, but it is a possibility. He’s a guy I want on my team.”
http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2012...tuation/11359/

Food for thought: if the Avs and O'Reilly remain at odds over contract terms, and Ennis remains unsigned in Buffalo for possibly similar reasons (Regier already said he didn't envision a long-term deal for Ennis), could a scenario occur where Colorado and Buffalo build a package that swaps the two RFAs with complementary pieces? Ennis is 23, O'Reilly 21. O'Reilly certainly has the size and two-way game that Buffalo lacks at center......


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Old
08-24-2012, 10:13 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2012...tuation/11359/

Food for thought: if the Avs and O'Reilly remain at odds over contract terms, and Ennis remains unsigned in Buffalo for possibly similar reasons (Regier already said he didn't envision a long-term deal for Ennis), could a scenario occur where Colorado and Buffalo build a package that swaps the two RFAs with complementary pieces? Ennis is 23, O'Reilly 21. O'Reilly certainly has the size and two-way game that Buffalo lacks at center......

Would be awesome, wouldn't it....

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08-24-2012, 10:14 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Nice try, definitely never said that. I admit a bias for Ennis, I think he's going to be a great player. You'd have to be blind to not think so after how he carried the offense down the stretch.
No. I think you have to be irrational and biased to have such a high and certain opinion based on less then half a season performance...

(you also predicted Gerbe would score 30 goals... you have a history of massively overrating our own players... and underrating everyone else)


Last edited by Jame: 08-24-2012 at 10:33 AM.
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Old
08-24-2012, 10:29 AM
  #46
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Don't trade Ennis.

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Old
08-24-2012, 10:34 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2012...tuation/11359/

Food for thought: if the Avs and O'Reilly remain at odds over contract terms, and Ennis remains unsigned in Buffalo for possibly similar reasons (Regier already said he didn't envision a long-term deal for Ennis), could a scenario occur where Colorado and Buffalo build a package that swaps the two RFAs with complementary pieces? Ennis is 23, O'Reilly 21. O'Reilly certainly has the size and two-way game that Buffalo lacks at center......

certainly would depend on the plus.

Ennis obviously has the offensive upside, but ROR would bring much needed size and jam to the position

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Old
08-24-2012, 12:23 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
Food for thought: if the Avs and O'Reilly remain at odds over contract terms, and Ennis remains unsigned in Buffalo for possibly similar reasons (Regier already said he didn't envision a long-term deal for Ennis), could a scenario occur where Colorado and Buffalo build a package that swaps the two RFAs with complementary pieces? Ennis is 23, O'Reilly 21. O'Reilly certainly has the size and two-way game that Buffalo lacks at center......
Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Would be awesome, wouldn't it....
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptPantalones View Post
certainly would depend on the plus.

Ennis obviously has the offensive upside, but ROR would bring much needed size and jam to the position
It's hard to see Colorado or Buffalo ever getting to the point of giving up on their respective RFAs but it wouldn't be the first time that a team having a difficult time negotiating with their free agents decided to finally move them when it gets to a stalemate/holdout stage.

Obviously, as long as the season is in doubt, neither team feels any pressure or urgency to re-sign either RFA.

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Old
08-29-2012, 05:29 AM
  #49
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I would say we could do with a top 6 talent upgrade, but the problem is we'd have to exchange a few players for one good one, and thats a trade template that only works in theory. To be fair though we have the following working for us.

Ennis/Folig/Staff, hopefully Staff can go back to being a 25-30 goal scorer and maybe Folig can chuck in 35-50 points, hopefully. Ennis should be interesting.
Leino is due for a better season, he really has a lot to prove and I think his might get 40-55 points this season.
Hopefully Myers and Ehrhoff will be healthy for a full season, probably our two most critical defenders.

I'd happily move Gerbe, Leopold, Adam and/or Brennan for a proven talent like Patrick Kane or Ryan but I don't know how easy that would be. If I were Regier though, Regier would be my target.

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Old
08-29-2012, 06:54 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by RazielMoshman View Post
I'd happily move Gerbe, Leopold, Adam and/or Brennan for a proven talent like Patrick Kane or Ryan but I don't know how easy that would be. If I were Regier though, Regier would be my target.
If Regier can pull off a trade for himself, it would be the greatest hockey swindle of all time!

Or do you mean he should fire himself? -- which is fine by me, too.

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