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Old
08-29-2012, 10:32 AM
  #26
Mystifo
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I find it funny Edmonton is saying no but come on why is Toronto trading away one of their only center prospects to acquire a player they already have in JVR? Makes no sense.

Also seriously MP5 is better than Colbourne? I mean I see them on even playing field only thing is Colbourne has a slight edge because he can play center.

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08-29-2012, 10:34 AM
  #27
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The Oilers do not need that pylon Franson in the 6/7 slot (if that). We have plenty of garbage to place hold there without going and giving up assets. Makes no sense at all.

PS if J.Schultz signed with the Leafs he'd be hailed as Jesus on Skates 3.0 and the best defenceman not currently in the NHL.

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08-29-2012, 10:54 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by SaskOil View Post
The Oilers do not need that pylon Franson in the 6/7 slot (if that). We have plenty of garbage to place hold there without going and giving up assets. Makes no sense at all.

PS if J.Schultz signed with the Leafs he'd be hailed as Jesus on Skates 3.0 and the best defenceman not currently in the NHL.
His name is Morgan Rielly.

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08-29-2012, 11:02 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
Your kidding right. Franson is a unsigned RFA that is a 7th D on a bad defensive team and it's questionable if Colborne will ever make the NHL. You'll get flamed from Oiler fans for this one.
And what is Paajarvi? A lock to be a top six forward? Because what I saw last season is a guy who scored two goals in 41 games. A guy who struggled so much he got sent down from one of the worst teams in the NHL.

And Colten Teubert is horrible. Guy is a bust. Absolutely no need for him on the Leafs. Holds zero value.

Cody Franson played two full seasons on a very good defensive team in Nashville prior to coming to Toronto. Blame our coaching staff for not playing him regularly this season. He scored 21 points in 57 games. Sad part is that's still better than Paajarvi

Oh and we have to give Colborne too?

This is a terrible proposal. No way Toronto would ever do this.

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08-29-2012, 11:18 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
Your kidding right. Franson is a unsigned RFA that is a 7th D on a bad defensive team and it's questionable if Colborne will ever make the NHL. You'll get flamed from Oiler fans for this one.
With that logic, you can say the same about the Oilers mentioned.

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08-29-2012, 11:22 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
Franson started out as the 7th D and only played because of injuries, it would be questionable if he would make the Oiler team as it stands now.
and yet franson was a top 4 in nashville where they have a great defensive structure and made the playoffs.

watch the players before you comment, please. just because they wear blue and white doesn't make them garbage.

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Old
08-29-2012, 11:28 AM
  #32
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Not sure why so many are calling Franson a #7 pylon D-man. He would definitely be make Edmonton's defense better, which I know isn't saying much. He should not have been a scratch as much as he has been last year with the Leafs. Schenn and Komisarek had much worse years. I actually think he played well this year and can see him getting better once he gets a chance to play regularly and starts using his size.

The Leafs need more prospects like Colborne and should have no interest in trading him at this point, especially since the Leafs have enough wingers, and already have lots of D prospects.

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08-29-2012, 11:30 AM
  #33
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PRV is the only asset in this deal that has any value. The rest probably wouldn't even be plucked off waivers.

Franson is a pylon. Get over it Leafs fans. He has 0 value.....0

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08-29-2012, 11:30 AM
  #34
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Teubert and Colborne are a wash. Both are probably busts. Teubert can probably make it as a 6/7 defenseman with some toughness. Colborne as more upside but mroe downside too because he won't be in the NHL as a bottom-six player.

Franson isn't worth Paarvi +3rd.

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Old
08-29-2012, 11:32 AM
  #35
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Not interested. Teubert is a bust, and MPS isn't really needed at the expense of losing Colborne. Our center depth is already as weak as it is.

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08-29-2012, 11:40 AM
  #36
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From a value perspective its actually quite fair. Both MPS and Colborne are unproven but have potential and similar value. The rest of the deal is basically garbage for garbage.

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08-29-2012, 01:07 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Porn* View Post
and yet franson was a top 4 in nashville where they have a great defensive structure and made the playoffs.

watch the players before you comment, please. just because they wear blue and white doesn't make them garbage.
He wasn't top 4 and he played very protected minutes when he did play there. Franson has good skating ability north to south, but his lateral movement sucks and is often caught standing still, the only reason he's around is due to his above average shot. If he is so good, why hasn't Burke locked him up to a contract, or is Burke questioning if Franson worth resigning. Franson by no means is a proven NHL D.

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Old
08-29-2012, 01:51 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Paajarvi had a very good rookie season. He scored 15 goals in his first year on NA ice and showed that he is very good defensively.

When the Oilers signed Smyth, Paajarvi was the guy that took the hit. No doubt he struggled offensively, but still proved to be very good defensively. When he was sent down to the AHL he had a slow start but once he was familiar with the system, played quite well in his first trip. Then when he was recalled for a short stint and again played well for the short time he was back up.

During the playoffs Paajarvi was the Barons' best player. There were several games when he was quite dominant. He actually showed a physical component to his game as well.

He is 6'3" 210lbs. He is a great skater, has a good shot, and is a much better playmaker than most give him credit for. And he has just turned 21. There is no chance that the Oilers are ready to give up on him. Certainly not for Cody Franson, a guy who despite all you protestations would be at best a 3rd pairing defensemen this year but probably would be a #7 on the Oilers.

You can claim Franson is better than Petry all you want. All this does is to suggest that you have not seen Petry play, that you know little about the Oilers. He certainly does not play ahead of Smid, Whitney or N. Schulz. So he is on the third pairing.

Cleary the plan is to give J. Schultz plenty of time to prove himself. He will get sheltered minutes at ES and pp time with the kids. He is an important investment for this team so hsi development will be a priority.

The Oilers also have Taylor Fedun as a right handed offensive dman. He would likely have made the team last year but for his devastating injury. From the looks of things a Perry Pearns 3 vs 3 camp, he is agin skating very well. THis kid has tremendous hockey sense, is a great skater, has a big shot and despite the fact that he is on the smaller side has a very good defensive game. THis kid is a sleeper who most people on these boards have never even heard of.

The Oilers will also want a physical component on the defense as well which means:
1) Sutton---He played very well in his given role, when he was not suspended.
2) Peckham ---He had an excellent year in 2010-2011, but suffered a concussion in a fight that set him back a lot. He struggled last year at ES, but is still an excellent pk'er. Clearly, the new coach wants to see if he can regain the physical component of his game. (If they added Franson, Peckham might have to be wiaved and would likely be claimed.)
3) Teubert---Not sure why you call him a bust. He was probably one of OKC's most important players. He is a good skater, has very good mobility, a big shot, and unlike Franson, he is astough as nails and will not hesitate to go to battle for e teammate. He is also only 22 years old and has another year on his ELC. Teubert saw a fair bit of action last year, he did struggle at times, but on the whole played quite well despite being recalled when the Oiler's defense was badly injury riddled. Kid looks like a future solid third pairing guy to me with the potential to be a 2nd pairing shutdown guy.

One of these three ione s probably going to be playing on most nights simply because of the physical aspect of their game. So what you have is little room on this team for Cody Franson right now and even less once some of their best prospects start showing up.

As for Colborne, people in Edmonton know Colborne quite well as he played in the AJHL. If he played with heart he could be a valuable addition to the Oilers. But he typically does not. The kid has lots of skills but has yet to show that he can take advantage of them. He is big, which the Oilers need, but he plays small, so is of lttle value to the Oilers. They already have a project like this in Ryan Martindale. Right now Colborne is better of course, but not by so much as to make the Oilers want to trade Paajarvi for Franson.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Not foolish at all, AND I said he wouldn't be NEEDED, not "wanted". If the Oilers goal is to upgrade their defence, why would they waste their "return value" in a trade on another forward? I didn't mention anything about Colborne's value or projection as an NHLer, I was strictly saying that for a team so overloaded with young forwards, it makes little sense for them to actively seek out more of them in return for a guy they picked 10th overall (who, admittedly, is not offering decent return on that investment at the moment).

My point was, and still stands: if the Oilers are going to make a move for a defenceman, they need to put all their eggs in one basket and get one good defenceman in a return for their assets. "Splitting up the value" they get in return makes little sense. Colborne may have a nice career, but he wouldn't fit into Edmonton's plans at all. He would be redundant for THEM. That's no knock against Colborne, but for a team who was considering trading down in this past draft to select a defenceman, or taking Murphy outright... adding yet ANOTHER young forward to their stable makes absolutely zero sense. They need a defenceman that has "the value of Colborne AND Franson".

Edmonton needs to be all-in for a defenceman, and not bothering with proposals that try to add forwards to help "even out a deal" because the defenceman being offered isn't up to par / what they really need going forwards.
The voice of reason in this thread, thanks guys.

You know I really hate the argument some posters use. Player X is more proven than player Y so they must be more valuable.
By that token Peckham would be more valuable than Reilly, it's a **** argument and I wish posters would stop using it. Real GM's look at upside.

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Old
08-29-2012, 01:54 PM
  #39
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Not interested. Teubert is a bust, and MPS isn't really needed at the expense of losing Colborne. Our center depth is already as weak as it is.

Please enlighten us how Tuebert is a bust. Because a stay at home defenseman is not an NHL regular at age 22??

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08-29-2012, 02:28 PM
  #40
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OK. Don't want to get any infractions here, so I'll just say it as it is.

I THINK (I could be very wrong) that Colborne is a huge disappointment. I don't know what he's done wrong. Since he went pro all of the media reports make it sound like he's become much more aggressive and tough for his size, but he's failed miserably.

I'd take either of Lander, Pitlick, Hartikainen or Paajarvi over him at this point. Probably Zharkov too, but it's too soon to tell.

Burke swings for the fences on some of his trades and you can see in his trade history that it doesn't always work out. (not just talking about Toronto here)

To me, this is insulting, because Paajarvi is my favourite propsect belonging to the Oilers. He can skate with Cogliano's speed, he's an incredible athlete and he's got enough height to mess around, but he had to be sent down to learn to put up points in a North American system.

I was boiling mad how long it took for him to get sent down to the AHL. After a few games I was so angry because he wasn't getting top six minutes. Given how well he already played that bottom six role I wanted him sent down the AHL to play minutes in the AHL where he could play top 6 minutes and learn to score the right way.

He's now learning to have more patience. He's learning that he doesn't have a Joe Sakic-like wrist shot which can be shot from 1 meter past the blueline. (Joe never even did that.)

Magnus is the closest I've seen to Hossa V2.0 in a long time. If he actually hits the gym, puts on 15 pounds and learns a little patience he will be.

Nothing in the Toronto package comes close to what I described so the original proposal is nothing short of insulting. If TSN mentioned such a trade rumour 90% of the viewers would be laughing.

No. That wasn't a troll comment. That was the truth. In my very humble opinion.

Thanks.

Have a nice day.

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Old
08-29-2012, 02:41 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by thadd View Post
OK. Don't want to get any infractions here, so I'll just say it as it is.

I THINK (I could be very wrong) that Colborne is a huge disappointment. I don't know what he's done wrong. Since he went pro all of the media reports make it sound like he's become much more aggressive and tough for his size, but he's failed miserably.

I'd take either of Lander, Pitlick, Hartikainen or Paajarvi over him at this point. Probably Zharkov too, but it's too soon to tell.

Burke swings for the fences on some of his trades and you can see in his trade history that it doesn't always work out. (not just talking about Toronto here)

To me, this is insulting, because Paajarvi is my favourite propsect belonging to the Oilers. He can skate with Cogliano's speed, he's an incredible athlete and he's got enough height to mess around, but he had to be sent down to learn to put up points in a North American system.

I was boiling mad how long it took for him to get sent down to the AHL. After a few games I was so angry because he wasn't getting top six minutes. Given how well he already played that bottom six role I wanted him sent down the AHL to play minutes in the AHL where he could play top 6 minutes and learn to score the right way.

He's now learning to have more patience. He's learning that he doesn't have a Joe Sakic-like wrist shot which can be shot from 1 meter past the blueline. (Joe never even did that.)

Magnus is the closest I've seen to Hossa V2.0 in a long time. If he actually hits the gym, puts on 15 pounds and learns a little patience he will be.

Nothing in the Toronto package comes close to what I described so the original proposal is nothing short of insulting. If TSN mentioned such a trade rumour 90% of the viewers would be laughing.

No. That wasn't a troll comment. That was the truth. In my very humble opinion.

Thanks.

Have a nice day.
Way to contradict yourself.

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Old
08-29-2012, 03:06 PM
  #42
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Way to contradict yourself.
Hey. Give me a break. If I don't come across as a fool and contradict myself I'll probably get in trouble too.

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08-29-2012, 03:15 PM
  #43
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Hey. Give me a break. If I don't come across as a fool and contradict myself I'll probably get in trouble too.
We cannot all be perfect like some fans.

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08-29-2012, 03:42 PM
  #44
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OK. Don't want to get any infractions here, so I'll just say it as it is.

I THINK (I could be very wrong) that Colborne is a huge disappointment. I don't know what he's done wrong. Since he went pro all of the media reports make it sound like he's become much more aggressive and tough for his size, but he's failed miserably.
He was leading the AHL in points for the first month and a bit of the season, then got called up and had 4 points in 6 NHL games, and then suffered a wrist injury when he was sent back down, which he hid from the coaching staff. That's why he fell off a cliff and looked like a bust last year.

He had 42 pts in 75 games as a rookie in the AHL, which is respectable for someone adjusting to pro hockey from college, so I don't know why people make it sound like his career is dead in the water. I'm inclined to give him a pass for last year considering he showed what he can do when healthy.

As for not being aggressive for his size, as long as he's scoring, no one will really care. It's more that because he's 6'5, everyone expects him to be Zdeno Chara, when that's not really his game.

http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=634581


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Old
08-29-2012, 03:45 PM
  #45
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The Oilers defense is not so different than what you presented above. You have Whitney, Smid and N. Schultz vs Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, and Liles. Petry is the rookie who had a standout year. BUt unlike Gardiner form last year Petry is more of an alround dman with a pretty decent physical game. So right now we have both teams top four being pretty much determined.

If the Oilers want to give J. Schultz time then Franson would sit as he is not the right guy to pair Schultz with at ES.

Your assessment of Paajarvi is not accurate. The Oilers team was not strong but they had pretty solid wingers in Paajarvi's first season with Hemsky, Hall, Eberle and Penner all looking to be top 4. Paajarvi had a great preseason. He was better than either of Hall or Eberle. And he actually had a very good rookie year with 15 goals and 34 points playimng thrid line minutes with little pp time. He struggled in his second year. But by theend of the tear was playing extremely well in thge AHL. He is the most valuable asset in this deal becuase at this point his upside is certainly more than what Franson brings to the table.

Franson is at best 3rd pairing offensive dman on almost any team.
You're missing Luke Schenn from the comparison -- that's a pretty good defenceman with a pretty big name to prevent Franson from getting ice time this past year.

As for Schultz, a team can give ice time to inexperienced players all day, at some point they've gotta decide that they'd rather win games.

My assessment of Paajarvi is 100% accurate. He's an AHL player on the worst team in the league.

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08-29-2012, 03:46 PM
  #46
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Don't really want either player being offered to the Leafs. Would rather keep what we have.

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08-29-2012, 03:48 PM
  #47
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trade talk between oiler fans and leaf fans never end well.

MPS is the best player in the deal.

Problem I have is the Colborne has been previously compared to Jason bonsignore (look at his prospect review on this site and forcaster--) and that scares most oiler fans. Colborne is a big guy who sometimes seem disinterested in playing everyshift, this was his tag in uni and has now followed him to the pros.

The D-man from the leafs would be number 6 on the oilers

Schultz, Schultz, Smid, Whitney, Petry are all guys I put into the line up before the leaf d-man. oilers have Potter(who will be on the farm by game 40) and Sutton and Peckham for toughness--If the leaf d-man had more grit than I might be interested.

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Old
08-29-2012, 04:25 PM
  #48
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You're missing Luke Schenn from the comparison -- that's a pretty good defenceman with a pretty big name to prevent Franson from getting ice time this past year.

As for Schultz, a team can give ice time to inexperienced players all day, at some point they've gotta decide that they'd rather win games.

My assessment of Paajarvi is 100% accurate. He's an AHL player on the worst team in the league.
Luke Schenn had nothing to do with the amount of playing time Franson received. It was the emergence of Gardiner that regulated Franson to the 6/7th spot. The Leafs coaches even played Mike Komisarek ahead of him. Ron Wilson even had a crazy system which you would think that was suited for Franson's style of play. I thought I heard it all but to say it was because of Luke Schenn takes the cake.

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08-29-2012, 04:45 PM
  #49
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paajarvi and klefbom plz

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08-29-2012, 04:59 PM
  #50
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Leafs vs. Oilers. Two teams that can often be extremely overrated their players, but Toronto does over rate their players a bit more then any other team.

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