HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Rink
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Rink For the not so ready for prime-time players, coaches, referees, and the people that have to live with them. Discuss experiences in local leagues, coaching tips, equipment, and training.

Stand-up (hybrid, maybe?) style questions

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-29-2012, 08:32 AM
  #1
Ilkka Pikachu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Portugal
Posts: 4,338
vCash: 500
Stand-up (hybrid, maybe?) style questions

So I'm going to start playing hockey in the fall, and I just absolutely need to be a goalie because I love it. But since I'm like 5' 8" on skates, the butterfly isn't really working for me because it just leaves way too much space when I'm down. I need to be able to move somehow, since I can tell that my positioning is going to be an issue right off the bat.

That said, would hybrid yet leaning on stand-up style allow me to get to more pucks? I'd like to play an "in your face", top-of-the-crease kind of game because I'd rather catch the puck than just stand in its way. Also, am I going to get laughed at for goals that could have been stopped easily by a butterfly goalie?

My last question's going to be about pads, and then I'll be out of your hair. Should I get shorter pads or something to move better, or just loosen them at the straps?


Last edited by Ilkka Pikachu: 08-29-2012 at 06:38 PM.
Ilkka Pikachu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 10:46 AM
  #2
Beezeral
Registered User
 
Beezeral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 2,327
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockie View Post
So I'm going to start playing hockey in the fall, and I just absolutely need to be a goalie because I love it. But since I'm like 5' 8" on skates, the butterfly isn't really working for me because it just leaves way too much space when I'm down. I need to be able to move somehow, since I can tell that my positioning is going to be an issue right off the bat.

That said, would a more stand-up style allow me to get to more pucks? I'd like to play an "in your face", top-of-the-crease kind of game because I'd rather catch the puck than just stand in its way. Also, am I going to get laughed at for goals that could have been stopped easily by a butterfly goalie?

My last question's going to be about pads, and then I'll be out of your hair. Should I get shorter pads or something to move better, or just loosen them at the straps?
I'm about the same height and have been a butterfly goalie all my life. The style will work fine as long as you have good hand-eye coordination.

I don't recommend a stand up style due to the fact that as you get older (30-40) the shots get lower and lower(unless you are playing with talented guys) therefore a stand up style will become less effective. Go out and watch some C or D games in your area. A lot of goals come from close shots where the puck is less than a foot off the ice. Your team would rather you give up 4 or 5 goals that hit the top of the net than 6 or 7 goals around your feet.

My advice is to stick with it and work from the bottom up. Soon enough you will be quick enough to stop the high shots as well.

Good luck.

Beezeral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 11:08 AM
  #3
Ilkka Pikachu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Portugal
Posts: 4,338
vCash: 500
All good points, but I don't know. Maybe it will be different later, but I just feel so helpless when I'm down on the butterfly that it's not even funny, partially because my lateral movement is a far cry from being good.

Though at this point, I feel like the only thing I can trust is my glove.

Ilkka Pikachu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 11:27 AM
  #4
Beezeral
Registered User
 
Beezeral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 2,327
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockie View Post
All good points, but I don't know. Maybe it will be different later, but I just feel so helpless when I'm down on the butterfly that it's not even funny, partially because my lateral movement is a far cry from being good.

Though at this point, I feel like the only thing I can trust is my glove.
You picked one of the hardest positions in all of sports. Did you expect to be good from day one? Lateral movement is the hardest part, but it will come. You are right. Playing a stand up style will make the lateral movement easier. But like I previously said, you will sacrifice covering the bottom of the net. It's all up to how hard you are willing to work at it.

Beezeral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 11:51 AM
  #5
Fixed to Ruin
Come wit it now!
 
Fixed to Ruin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Grande Prairie, AB
Posts: 7,262
vCash: 221
I don't think you should limit yourself to a stand up style. The most efficient way to move post to post and cover the most net possible (even at 5'8") when the shooter is in close is with the butterfly technique.

However, for some, like myself on longer shots a more hybrid position is more advantageous. Myself I play a more hybrid style. I like what Brodeur does on longer shots because dropping the one knee to cover the five hole while keeping the other knee straight is way easier on my body and my back when i have to quickly get back up to move into position for the next shot.

Here's a couple of pics of Brodeur to show the position. Again look at his leg positioning.








Like you being a smaller goalie, playing stand up makes some sense, but only in certain situations. I think the Brodeur way is the best way since it allows you to be more mobile, then fully dropping to your knees to make one save.

Fixed to Ruin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 11:54 AM
  #6
Ilkka Pikachu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Portugal
Posts: 4,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by devils4cup View Post
I don't think you should limit yourself to a stand up style. The most efficient way to move post to post and cover the most net possible (even at 5'8") when the shooter is in close is with the butterfly technique.

However, for some, like myself on longer shots a more hybrid position is more advantageous. Myself I play a more hybrid style. I like what Brodeur does on longer shots because dropping the one knee to cover the five hole while keeping the other knee straight is way easier on my body and my back when i have to quickly get back up to move into position for the next shot.

Here's a couple of pics of Brodeur to show the position. Again look at his leg positioning.



Like you being a smaller goalie, playing stand up makes some sense, but only in certain situations. I think the Brodeur way is the best way since it allows you to be more mobile, then fully dropping to your knees to make one save.
I actually do drop on only one knee every once in a while without even trying, it's just instinctive. Like, that exact pose on the picture I quoted.

Ilkka Pikachu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 12:08 PM
  #7
Fixed to Ruin
Come wit it now!
 
Fixed to Ruin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Grande Prairie, AB
Posts: 7,262
vCash: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockie View Post
I actually do drop on only one knee every once in a while without even trying, it's just instinctive. Like, that exact pose on the picture I quoted.
When people think of stand up, they think of this...



and when people think of butterfly they think of this...



I don't think you will make many saves going pure stand up. However, the butterfly IMO is really hard on your body if you aren't the type of guy who is in really good shape. I think there's a reason Hasek, Thomas and Brodeur can play at a high level in their late 30s & early 40s. While butterfly goalies start slowing down or retiring in their early to mid 30s.

Most goalies now are trending towards a hybrid of both stand up and butterfly so I would do the same if I was in your shoes.

Fixed to Ruin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 01:37 PM
  #8
Ilkka Pikachu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Portugal
Posts: 4,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by devils4cup View Post
I don't think you will make many saves going pure stand up. However, the butterfly IMO is really hard on your body if you aren't the type of guy who is in really good shape. I think there's a reason Hasek, Thomas and Brodeur can play at a high level in their late 30s & early 40s. While butterfly goalies start slowing down or retiring in their early to mid 30s.

Most goalies now are trending towards a hybrid of both stand up and butterfly so I would do the same if I was in your shoes.
Yeah, I see where you're going with this. I personally love Brodeur's style and tend to stack pads and whatnot quite a bit (I don't know why, it's ****ing awesome), and most likely being a stand-up goalie would mean at least one of these guaranteed per game.


Ilkka Pikachu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 01:56 PM
  #9
Beezeral
Registered User
 
Beezeral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 2,327
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockie View Post
Yeah, I see where you're going with this. I personally love Brodeur's style and tend to stack pads and whatnot quite a bit (I don't know why, it's ****ing awesome), and most likely being a stand-up goalie would mean at least one of these guaranteed per game.


Yup. It sucks when it happens.

Beezeral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 02:19 PM
  #10
Korolyuk15
Registered User
 
Korolyuk15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: London
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 940
vCash: 500
my favourite goalie of all time was 5'8, definitely have to get a bit creative when you are that size, can't just flop down in a straight butterfly and expect the puck to hit you....hopefully this will be some inspiration





Korolyuk15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 03:08 PM
  #11
Ilkka Pikachu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Portugal
Posts: 4,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korolyuk15 View Post
my favourite goalie of all time was 5'8, definitely have to get a bit creative when you are that size, can't just flop down in a straight butterfly and expect the puck to hit you....hopefully this will be some inspiration
Some of those saves were absolutely disgusting, thanks!

Ilkka Pikachu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 03:29 PM
  #12
Hank4Hart
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,084
vCash: 500
if you truly want to play stand up, look up john brown's goalie pads. they are the only ones left out there that you can legit play stand up in...

Hank4Hart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 03:39 PM
  #13
Propane Nightmares
HF Top 30
 
Propane Nightmares's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: The pube
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 49,949
vCash: 500
People forget that standup goalies can do butterfly too when appropriate to stop embarrassing goals from happening.

We've already had someone make a thread saying they want to be a standup goalie and people seem to want to be "old time hockey" snobs because they think the butterfly requires no skill - reality check: it's much more difficult than "standing there letting the puck hit you"

No hostility directed towards you OP, it's just that people should just do whatever they can to stop the puck and not worry about having a "style"

Propane Nightmares is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 04:23 PM
  #14
Ilkka Pikachu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Portugal
Posts: 4,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
People forget that standup goalies can do butterfly too when appropriate to stop embarrassing goals from happening.

We've already had someone make a thread saying they want to be a standup goalie and people seem to want to be "old time hockey" snobs because they think the butterfly requires no skill - reality check: it's much more difficult than "standing there letting the puck hit you"

No hostility directed towards you OP, it's just that people should just do whatever they can to stop the puck and not worry about having a "style"
It's not that I have something against anyone who does full butterfly, but as I've explained before I just don't think it appeals to my strengths. I don't think I'm entitled to being snobbish about anything at this point, and I'm sorry if it came across that way.

Ilkka Pikachu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 05:02 PM
  #15
Beezeral
Registered User
 
Beezeral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 2,327
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockie View Post
It's not that I have something against anyone who does full butterfly, but as I've explained before I just don't think it appeals to my strengths. I don't think I'm entitled to being snobbish about anything at this point, and I'm sorry if it came across that way.
No offense, but most likely you haven't played enoguh to know your strengths and weaknesses. Regardless of your style, you have to learn how to butterfly, or you won't ever become a good goalie. There is no short cut to learning quick lateral movement, and playing a predominant stand up style is the worst thing you can do.

Go watch some adult C league games, the goalies that are letting in a bunch of goals usually struggle with the butterfly because they didn't want to take the time to practice it.

Beezeral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 05:33 PM
  #16
Ilkka Pikachu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Portugal
Posts: 4,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezeral View Post
No offense, but most likely you haven't played enoguh to know your strengths and weaknesses. Regardless of your style, you have to learn how to butterfly, or you won't ever become a good goalie. There is no short cut to learning quick lateral movement, and playing a predominant stand up style is the worst thing you can do.

Go watch some adult C league games, the goalies that are letting in a bunch of goals usually struggle with the butterfly because they didn't want to take the time to practice it.
Don't get me wrong, I know I'll have to learn it sooner rather than later, but if I can stay up for any shots in my glove's range, I will. When I mentioned strengths, it was more what I feel more confident with rather than actual strong points, and at this point I'd take my catching glove over the left pad any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I guess I made a mistake naming the thread then, since I don't want to be kicking at low shots when I can just turn them away on the butterfly. Oh well, people make mistakes.

Ilkka Pikachu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 06:15 PM
  #17
Beezeral
Registered User
 
Beezeral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 2,327
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockie View Post
Don't get me wrong, I know I'll have to learn it sooner rather than later, but if I can stay up for any shots in my glove's range, I will. When I mentioned strengths, it was more what I feel more confident with rather than actual strong points, and at this point I'd take my catching glove over the left pad any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I guess I made a mistake naming the thread then, since I don't want to be kicking at low shots when I can just turn them away on the butterfly. Oh well, people make mistakes.
This is the kind of play you are describing to me.

The story is irrelevent to my post but funny. Watch the 3:30 mark and watch until about 4:30. (Some NSFW language)



The goalie is doing the exact thing you describe, which is trying to save everything with his glove instead of using his pads and the result is that he is giving up a bunch of goals. Outside of maybe the first shot, none of those goals were difficult shots to stop, but the goalie clearly made it harder on himself because he never took the time to develop a butterfly.

Now watch a sub goalie playing with the same team in that same league. This time watch from 2:30 to 3:30 (Some NSFW language)



He isnt facing more challenging shots, and all he is doing is using solid technique to stop shots. The sub goalie shows that it doesnt take NHL talent to be a good goalie.

I may be completely wrong, but it seems to me that you are on your way to making the same mistakes the first goalie made when he started out, by deciding lateral movement and a proper butterfly were "too hard" and never learning it. The result is that he is a bad goalie on a struggling beer league team. Relying on your glove to stop everything causes you to lean forward and be off balance almost every time you make a save.

I hope this helps


Last edited by Beezeral: 08-29-2012 at 06:23 PM.
Beezeral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 06:34 PM
  #18
Ilkka Pikachu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Portugal
Posts: 4,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezeral View Post
I may be completely wrong, but it seems to me that you are on your way to making the same mistakes the first goalie made when he started out, by deciding lateral movement and a proper butterfly were "too hard" and never learning it. The result is that he is a bad goalie on a struggling beer league team. Relying on your glove to stop everything causes you to lean forward and be off balance almost every time you make a save.

I hope this helps
I'm not quoting the rest to be user-friendly here.

I have no issue with using the butterfly when necessary, but I feel way too locked into position when I go all the way down. This might just be in my head, but I look around and it's like 80% of the net is just wide open.

When I do this, though:



My mind is all warm and fuzzy because I feel in control. I can't really explain.

Ilkka Pikachu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 06:52 PM
  #19
Beezeral
Registered User
 
Beezeral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 2,327
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockie View Post
I'm not quoting the rest to be user-friendly here.

I have no issue with using the butterfly when necessary, but I feel way too locked into position when I go all the way down. This might just be in my head, but I look around and it's like 80% of the net is just wide open.

When I do this, though:



My mind is all warm and fuzzy because I feel in control. I can't really explain.

That works just fine on long shots, but you are going to run into a lot trouble on anything inside of 15 feet

Beezeral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 07:04 PM
  #20
Ilkka Pikachu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Portugal
Posts: 4,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezeral View Post
That works just fine on long shots, but you are going to run into a lot trouble on anything inside of 15 feet
So this notion that the net is empty basically is just my mind playing tricks? Can I still get the top corners if I'm properly positioned? If you haven't noticed, I don't have much experience with the butterfly

I guess have to grow out of this fear of leaving a foot on both sides exposed and just focus on the shooter, then. I feel like I'm going to scream internally on every shot before that happens, though

Ilkka Pikachu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 07:16 PM
  #21
Doctor No
Mod Supervisor
Retired?
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 24,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockie View Post
So this notion that the net is empty basically is just my mind playing tricks? Can I still get the top corners if I'm properly positioned? If you haven't noticed, I don't have much experience with the butterfly
Remember that (for the most part) the puck has to travel from the ice, so the "scoring cone" has to travel up. That makes it different than baseball, or lacrosse, or other sports like that.

I wrote this up on my site awhile ago to explain vertical angles - it might help:
http://www.hockeygoalies.org/advice/rule5.html

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 07:21 PM
  #22
Beezeral
Registered User
 
Beezeral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 2,327
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockie View Post
So this notion that the net is empty basically is just my mind playing tricks? Can I still get the top corners if I'm properly positioned? If you haven't noticed, I don't have much experience with the butterfly

I guess have to grow out of this fear of leaving a foot on both sides exposed and just focus on the shooter, then. I feel like I'm going to scream internally on every shot before that happens, though
The top corners are the top corners. Regardless of your style, if someone picks a corner, that puck is going in 7/10 times.

You can reduce what the shooter sees by playing proper angles and playing at the top or just above the crease. I can't see you in net so I have no idea if the net looks empty when you are in front of it, but I can tell you that your fears will go away as you get more comfortable with the position.

Beezeral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 07:33 PM
  #23
Ilkka Pikachu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Portugal
Posts: 4,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Remember that (for the most part) the puck has to travel from the ice, so the "scoring cone" has to travel up. That makes it different than baseball, or lacrosse, or other sports like that.

I wrote this up on my site awhile ago to explain vertical angles - it might help:
http://www.hockeygoalies.org/advice/rule5.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezeral View Post
The top corners are the top corners. Regardless of your style, if someone picks a corner, that puck is going in 7/10 times.

You can reduce what the shooter sees by playing proper angles and playing at the top or just above the crease. I can't see you in net so I have no idea if the net looks empty when you are in front of it, but I can tell you that your fears will go away as you get more comfortable with the position.
This is what I wanted to make sure of. I guess I'll just roll with whatever comes more naturally the first couple of games and learn from mistakes, then. The worse thing I could possibly do now imo is to try and do this or that thing differently just because, so I'll get acquainted with the butterfly through some training so that it gets good enough for me to want to use it

Ilkka Pikachu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 07:45 PM
  #24
Beezeral
Registered User
 
Beezeral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 2,327
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockie View Post
This is what I wanted to make sure of. I guess I'll just roll with whatever comes more naturally the first couple of games and learn from mistakes, then. The worse thing I could possibly do now imo is to try and do this or that thing differently just because, so I'll get acquainted with the butterfly through some training so that it gets good enough for me to want to use it

Sounds like a good plan, just don't get into bad habits, they are difficult to break.

To this day I struggle to keep my elbows tucked in when I drop into my butterfly, because when I was younger (and smaller), I wanted to take up more net so I flared my elbows out and to this day, I will give up goals under my armpits because of a bad habit I developed as a beginner

And just so you are aware, the thought process that you need to catch everything with your glove is in my opinion the worst habit a goalie can have.

Beezeral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2012, 07:47 PM
  #25
Ilkka Pikachu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Portugal
Posts: 4,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezeral View Post
Sounds like a good plan, just don't get into bad habits, they are difficult to break.

To this day I struggle to keep my elbows tucked in when I drop into my butterfly, because when I was younger (and smaller), I wanted to take up more net so I flared my elbows out and to this day, I will give up goals under my armpits because of a bad habit I developed as a beginner

And just so you are aware, the thought process that you need to catch everything with your glove is in my opinion the worst habit a goalie can have.
Yeah, but that's going to take a while to shake off after 12 years of being a soccer goalie

Ilkka Pikachu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:43 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.