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Old
08-29-2012, 05:05 PM
  #51
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
Luke Schenn had nothing to do with the amount of playing time Franson received. It was the emergence of Gardiner that regulated Franson to the 6/7th spot. The Leafs coaches even played Mike Komisarek ahead of him. Ron Wilson even had a crazy system which you would think that was suited for Franson's style of play. I thought I heard it all but to say it was because of Luke Schenn takes the cake.
Primarily -- yes. Jake Gardiner took Cody Franson's ice time.

However, had the Leafs not had Luke Schenn (or Komisarek, Liles, etc.), it's safe to say that Franson wouldn't have fallen out of the Leafs lineup quite as quickly, simply because there wasn't as much tailored depth to compete with.

As I originally mentioned -- Cody Franson wasn't the #7 defenceman because that's all he deserves to be on an NHL team. He was the #7 defenceman because Toronto had a deep blueline with more established and higher upside guys.

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08-29-2012, 06:04 PM
  #52
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You're missing Luke Schenn from the comparison -- that's a pretty good defenceman with a pretty big name to prevent Franson from getting ice time this past year.

As for Schultz, a team can give ice time to inexperienced players all day, at some point they've gotta decide that they'd rather win games.

My assessment of Paajarvi is 100% accurate. He's an AHL player on the worst team in the league.
Luke Schenn has nothing to do with the comparison I made. The point was that both teams have 3 established top 4 defensemen who are not going to be moved out by Franson and one very promising kid who is pretty much going to be in the top 4. (Petry and Gardiner).

In both cases that means that Franson is at best a third pairing dman. At this point you have no idea if Schultz, who his coach said was better than Gardiner, might not be better than Franson. My point is that the Oilers are going to give him the opportunity to show what he has with sheltered minutes at ES and with pp time.

As for winning, do you really think Franson playing 15 minutes a game at best is going to be a difference maker? Was he on the Leafs last year?

And based on your logic about Paajarvi how about Potter for Kadri. After all Kadri is even more of an AHL'er on one of the worst teams in the league and Potter played last year in teh NHL>

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08-29-2012, 06:31 PM
  #53
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EDM needs a dman but we need a dman that is more physical and Franson is not that guy.

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08-29-2012, 06:32 PM
  #54
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Magnus is great, he just lost his confidence last year. He's big and has blinding speed which should translate into him being a beast defensively as he matures. His offence is still a question mark but I always have faith in a Sweede. No one should count this guy out, he could be a beauty one day.

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08-29-2012, 07:04 PM
  #55
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The way I see it is that Leafs are getting a near sure bottom pairing shutdown dman, and then Oil are getting a bottom pair offensive dman with PP specialties, with fill in top 4 dman potential. I don't know enough to talk about MPS/Colborne except from their projected upside 2-3W/2-3C with MPS faster, and good 2 way ability like most Swedes, and Colborne has height, and once using his size, will be a good PWF.

Franson beats Teeubert with bit more potential, and Colborne has the positional importance, but it is still only a slight advantage total.

And for the people saying EDM has no use for Colborne, he is a probable 2C that is 6'5.

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08-29-2012, 08:01 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
The way I see it is that Leafs are getting a near sure bottom pairing shutdown dman, and then Oil are getting a bottom pair offensive dman with PP specialties, with fill in top 4 dman potential. I don't know enough to talk about MPS/Colborne except from their projected upside 2-3W/2-3C with MPS faster, and good 2 way ability like most Swedes, and Colborne has height, and once using his size, will be a good PWF.

Franson beats Teeubert with bit more potential, and Colborne has the positional importance, but it is still only a slight advantage total.

And for the people saying EDM has no use for Colborne, he is a probable 2C that is 6'5.
Explain to me why would the Oilers want Franson, when they have Petry, J.Schultz, and Whitney. There's no reasoning to it, the OP clearly hadn't thought out the trade. As to Colborne, your shoveling it a bit deep aren't you, the knock on Colborne is that he has no heart or drive. The Oilers have Martindale they don't need another like him. Franson and Colborne wouldn't get you MPS and the offer would have Tambo laughing for years.

To say Teubert is a bust shows how much some people know about him. Yes he needs to work on his decision making and put on some size, but he's only 22. he still has a couple of years and he was OKC's top D last year.

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08-29-2012, 08:20 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by weak5holeguy View Post
He's better then Petry, The jury is still out on J.Schultz too. J.Schultz is easily the most overrated prospect on this board, Hasn't played a game in the AHL yet, Let alone NHL.
I was going to come in here and say that the offer wasn't that bad. I like the Oilers bringing in a big centre prospect like Colbourne, but the pieces being offered might be a little too much.

But going and making a post like this is just silly. I like Franson - but he just wouldn't add much to a blueline already filled with question marks, which Franson undoubtedly is.

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08-29-2012, 09:15 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
Explain to me why would the Oilers want Franson, when they have Petry, J.Schultz, and Whitney. There's no reasoning to it, the OP clearly hadn't thought out the trade. As to Colborne, your shoveling it a bit deep aren't you, the knock on Colborne is that he has no heart or drive. The Oilers have Martindale they don't need another like him. Franson and Colborne wouldn't get you MPS and the offer would have Tambo laughing for years.

To say Teubert is a bust shows how much some people know about him. Yes he needs to work on his decision making and put on some size, but he's only 22. he still has a couple of years and he was OKC's top D last year.
I agree that you guys don't really need Franson, but who do you have on your team that has a good shot from the point? Potter? Those players are the thing that keeps you in the basement for 3 years. Colborne has more potential and probablility of getting it than Martindale, (7.5C/7D on HF) R.M has near-busted. Please show me where you found the knock on Joe Colborne is drive/heart, because that's your very own Martindale. Colborne is used to dominating with his size, and is still adjusting. His knock is not using his size, which will come with experience. Keep on dreaming about MPS, to bad he couldn't stay on the team that finishes 30th, 30th, 29th since getting drafted..

Teubert will be a serviceable bottom pair dman, but not much more than that. Just because he is your AHL's top pair D, doesn't mean much or should Leafs expect to have Mark Fraser, the top D on the Calder finals team, become a top 4 dman? No, because neither will be one.

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08-29-2012, 09:18 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by weak5holeguy View Post
He's better then Petry, The jury is still out on J.Schultz too. J.Schultz is easily the most overrated prospect on this board, Hasn't played a game in the AHL yet, Let alone NHL.
No he's absolutely not even close to being better than Petry. Petry has legitimate top pairing potential and proved in his first full season he's a legitimate top 4 NHLer.

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08-29-2012, 09:18 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by weak5holeguy View Post
#notsureifserious. Franson is easily the best player in this deal.
This coming from a TML fan . Good luck with that . PRV is . I know Leaf fans say he a bust because he was in the AHL . Just like leafs fans say Gagner is a bust , but when Luke Schenn was mention being a bust . He is young and still developing . Franson has some skill , but PRV is very fast good , good in the D zone . Even if he only stays the same he has more value . A good 2 way player with speed to burn > more then a #7

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08-29-2012, 09:35 PM
  #61
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This coming from a TML fan . Good luck with that . PRV is . I know Leaf fans say he a bust because he was in the AHL . Just like leafs fans say Gagner is a bust , but when Luke Schenn was mention being a bust . He is young and still developing . Franson has some skill , but PRV is very fast good , good in the D zone . Even if he only stays the same he has more value . A good 2 way player with speed to burn > more then a #7
Why do you space between every period on both sides? Anyways, What was stopping MPS from being on the NHL team that finsihed 30th x 2 and 29th since he was drafted? Not many people called Gagner a bust, it is just that he is an average 2C skill-wise, but has deficiencies like size and your #1 being small, so you can't have 2 small guys lining up on center. Schenn was still lining up for NHL games, wasn't he? There is a difference of not reaching your potential because of road blocks in the way(# of men, Wilson's TERRIBLE defence that kills shutdown D) and actually busting.

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08-29-2012, 09:36 PM
  #62
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No he's absolutely not even close to being better than Petry. Petry has legitimate top pairing potential and proved in his first full season he's a legitimate top 4 NHLer.
He is a legit top 4 dman, but you shouldn't be calling him top pair type of guy.

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08-29-2012, 09:49 PM
  #63
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He is a legit top 4 dman, but you shouldn't be calling him top pair type of guy.
I didn't I said he had legitimate top pair potential which he does.

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08-29-2012, 09:58 PM
  #64
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I didn't I said he had legitimate top pair potential which he does.
Not really, like the most you could say he has #2 potential as his best case scenario. Most likely a good well-rounded 3/4 dman that can play all situations.

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08-29-2012, 10:01 PM
  #65
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I didn't I said he had legitimate top pair potential which he does.
Lol, And HF says we overrate our players.

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08-29-2012, 10:07 PM
  #66
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This coming from a TML fan . Good luck with that . PRV is . I know Leaf fans say he a bust because he was in the AHL . Just like leafs fans say Gagner is a bust , but when Luke Schenn was mention being a bust . He is young and still developing . Franson has some skill , but PRV is very fast good , good in the D zone . Even if he only stays the same he has more value . A good 2 way player with speed to burn > more then a #7
I never said or seen anyone call Paajarvi a bust, He's been a dissapointment for sure but still has time to turn it around. He's got wheels for sure, but as him being good 2-way player that's certainly debatable.
Franson>Paajarvi AINEC.

P.S I wish people would stop calling Franson a #7, Anybody who watch the Leafs knows he was probably #4 or #5. HF logic I guess "If he plays on the Leafs he must be horrible"

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08-29-2012, 10:08 PM
  #67
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Lol, And HF says we overrate our players.
That's because you do...

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08-29-2012, 10:12 PM
  #68
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That's because you do...
More than any other fan base AINEC.

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08-29-2012, 10:13 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
Why do you space between every period on both sides? Anyways, What was stopping MPS from being on the NHL team that finsihed 30th x 2 and 29th since he was drafted? Not many people called Gagner a bust, it is just that he is an average 2C skill-wise, but has deficiencies like size and your #1 being small, so you can't have 2 small guys lining up on center. Schenn was still lining up for NHL games, wasn't he? There is a difference of not reaching your potential because of road blocks in the way(# of men, Wilson's TERRIBLE defence that kills shutdown D) and actually busting.
The Oilers may not have had a great team but their wingers in the top six are not exaclty chopped liver.

He played full season as a 19 year old rookie and had a very good year. Last year he ended up behind Smyth and Hall on the Oilers left wing. He did make the team. But Smyth came out of the gate very fast and Renney decided it was best to give Smyth and Horcoff insane mintes while all the kids, including Hall, Eberle and RNH got relatively few minutes despite their success. Paajarvi took the brunt of this decision as he got primarily defensive assignments playing with mostly Belanger. That line and Paajarvi in particular struggled offensively and Paajarvi seemed to lose his confidence so eventually they sent him down to get it back.

He played very well in the AHL, and actually played quite well in a short stint back with the big team but they sent him back to get big minutes and some first pp time. From that point on he was the Baron's best player going forward.

Paajarvi just turned 21 and has already played over 100 NHL games with 17 goals and 42 points. It's not like he has been playing in the ECHL.

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08-29-2012, 10:17 PM
  #70
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Luke Schenn has nothing to do with the comparison I made. The point was that both teams have 3 established top 4 defensemen who are not going to be moved out by Franson and one very promising kid who is pretty much going to be in the top 4. (Petry and Gardiner).

In both cases that means that Franson is at best a third pairing dman. At this point you have no idea if Schultz, who his coach said was better than Gardiner, might not be better than Franson. My point is that the Oilers are going to give him the opportunity to show what he has with sheltered minutes at ES and with pp time.

As for winning, do you really think Franson playing 15 minutes a game at best is going to be a difference maker? Was he on the Leafs last year?

And based on your logic about Paajarvi how about Potter for Kadri. After all Kadri is even more of an AHL'er on one of the worst teams in the league and Potter played last year in teh NHL>
Of course he'd start on the 3rd pair for either team this year. That doesn't mean he couldn't be highly effective on it.

Pass on Potter for Kadri. The guy is a 28 year old journeyman with basically no value. Kadri's is valuable trade bait.

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08-29-2012, 10:31 PM
  #71
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Of course he'd start on the 3rd pair for either team this year. That doesn't mean he couldn't be highly effective on it.

Pass on Potter for Kadri. The guy is a 28 year old journeyman with basically no value. Kadri's is valuable trade bait.
How does Kadri have any value if he is an AHL player with one of the worst teams in the NHL. Is it possible because teams recognize that for a player his age that development is not linear.

I don't see why this is so complicated. Franson would not even be on the Oilers pp so his offensive skills are going to be of far less use. The Oilers will use one dman per unit and he would sit behind both Petry and Whitney for sure and likely behind Schultz and maybe even Fedun.

If you want to give him to the Oilers for free I am sure they will take him. But they will not deal Paajarvi, a kid that they are still very high on despite the opinions of so many on here who probably saw if at mopst 2 times last year, for a defenseman who would not be in tehir longterm plans.

Franson is not a new name for Oiler fans. He has been dicussed since he was a prospect with Nashville. Many of us have followed his career quite closely since back then. So it is not like the comments you are hearing are all coming from ignorance of his game. I've probably seen him play as much or more than as most Leaf fans.

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08-29-2012, 10:43 PM
  #72
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Uh, I'm pretty sure the jury is still out on that one there, chum.

I'd say this deal would be somewhat close without the Oilers adding the pick. Closer than Oilers fans might admit, but clearly the Oilers are giving away the better players... though it's not by much.

That being said, if the Oil are moving Pajaarvi/ Teubert in a package for an NHL-ready defenceman, they can probably do better than Franson. Having Colborne in a return package is completely redundant for the Oilers, he's not needed whatsoever in Edmonton, either now or in the future. It's a bad deal for them from an assets-management viewpoint as well.
I would agree with you. It is somewhat close in general terms if the pick is removed. I believe OP felt Coborne was the main piece from Toronto (because franson is worthless and has been shopped forever) but really we would be focussed on the D coming back and that makes us bad trading partners with T.O. since we dont like any of their D.

Although the deal would be close, with pick removed, we would much rather sit patient with the guy we know -Paajarvii. We have an interest in being patient with him and letting him develop with no rush. I like that the Oilers have told him he will be a big part of the future and he can just relax and develop. He will get there, that frame is going to fill out, he will get more adapted to the physical game, find the gaps better, read his timing better and THEN he will come back up to the NHL. And we will re-sign him for cheap.

i watched the AHL playoffs and Magnum created something good every shift. I like where he is headed.


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Old
08-29-2012, 10:48 PM
  #73
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More than any other fan base AINEC.
More fans AINEC...

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08-29-2012, 10:52 PM
  #74
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The Oilers need a blueliner with a few successful years under their belt at the NHL level. Not 1 year, not 10 years, a few. Young enough to have the potential to get better, old enough to be trusted.

Basically another Smid.

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08-29-2012, 10:57 PM
  #75
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A RHD who can provenly slide into a top 4 position and play shutdown and PK minutes

Boychuk from Boston would be the most obvious target. Boston would listen if they could get a top 4 back, or get one thru trading the asset we sent them - OR FA.

Personally ive imagined a pairing of NShultz and Boychuk for regular 60 and PK and Smid and Boychuk for last minute shut downs.

Smid Petry
NSchultz Boychuk
Whitney JSchultz
Sutton

I like Whitney but i will wait until camp to see if i should expect much out of him this year. If he is 100% we might move him once his market value is higher.

The reason why Boston would be open to trading Boychuk are the exact reasons he would be what the oilers are looking for. Boston would trade him because although he can handle top 4 minutes with Chara he isnt really a top Dman. He is a dman that can log alot of time, make good d decisions and put on hits. although he has a solid shot hes not going to be setting up crisp outlets to bolting wingers. What the Oilers need is a 3rd RHD who can handle a tough defensive load in an offensive system - ESPECIALLY while Justin Schultz gets acquainted. He would be slipping on the right where Petry and J Schultz are, thus upgrading on Potter. We just need him to do what he does, and we got the guys to take care of the other parts.


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