I think there were about 5 feasible options... I was definitely on the Pahlsson bandwagon at the time, looking back. Who knows how close giguere came to winning that one? No one, unfortunately, because they don't release this stuff - plus I'm pretty sure they all get to make just one first place vote
Certainly it wasn't clear who was going to win it before the vote came in.
Pronger's numbers seem to have made a better case for him than Neidermayer.
Certainly it wasn't clear who was going to win it before the vote came in.
Pronger's numbers seem to have made a better case for him than Neidermayer.
game in, game out, Pronger was probably the better player, but it wasn't by such a wide margin that it overcame the "he got suspended twice and they won both times without him" factor.
Tomas Vokoun is an active goalie that would seem to deserve consideration for the top 60 list and hasn't specifically been mentioned yet in this thread. He's a bit of an interesting case because he doesn't have the awards voting, playoff success or high subjective ranking that others do, but he does have strong regular season save numbers over a career that currently has him ranked 24th on the all-time games played list, plus a pretty good international record. It should be noted though that Vokoun's numbers are a bit overstated as he had some generous shot counters in his career (.923 career save % at home vs. .910 on the road).
Since it's not always easy to evaluate the full career of an active goalie while he is still in the middle of it, I thought I'd include the current top 10 list of active goalies in GVT for anyone who might find it useful.
Career Regular Season GVT Leaders Among Active Goalies:
1. Martin Brodeur, 307.4
2. Roberto Luongo, 279.0
3. Tomas Vokoun, 200.1
4. Henrik Lundqvist, 195.2
5. Tim Thomas, 158.6
6. Miikka Kiprusoff, 132.6
7. Evgeni Nabokov, 130.2
8. J.S. Giguere, 124.5
9. Ryan Miller, 114.1
10. Marty Turco, 96.2
It should be noted though that Vokoun's numbers are a bit overstated as he had some generous shot counters in his career (.923 career save % at home vs. .910 on the road).
What's an average home/ road split for save percentage?
Agree with this. The AST finishes should just be a small piece of the puzzle when determining rankings, and they really need to be taken in the context of the era they were earned. As far as I'm concerned, anything less than a 3rd place in the O6 era isn't worth much at all.
method of voting for AS is also important.
for example, sawchuk in '57 missed 2nd half of the season and only played 34 games, but was 3rd in AS voting and 4th in hart voting.
that would be very unlikely today, especially in hart voting. OTOH, only DRW, habs and boston (sawchuk's team) had winning records.
I'd go with Peeters here as well. 38 more career wins than Edwards and Peeters played really well during the free-wheeling offensive era of the 80's.
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Exhibit A as to how hockey doesn't matter on ESPN:
Last night an ESPN program was discussing how the Detroit Pistons needed a hero citing the heroes on the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Lions and no mention of the Detroit Red Wings. All this despite the Red Wings probably being the most succesful team in Detroit right now.
I'd like to bring up the name Mike Vernon, it will be interesting to see where he ranks on people's lists or even if he does get on people's lists considering he had such an up and down career. As a rookie leads the Flames to a series victory over the Oilers with Gretzky, Messier, Kurri and Fuhr all in their primes, and the Flames go all the way to the Cup finals. Then wins the Stanley Cup in 89 while putting up an incredable Win/Loss record of 37 wins and 6 losses all year. Then has some real awful playoff performances for the Flames and gets traded to Detroit. There he leads them to the Stanley Cup and wins a Con Smyth trophy in 97. Then after that he never makes it out of the 1st round for the rest of his career.12th all time in wins I don't know where to find the voting records for the Vezina but I'm sure he was awfully close if not for Roy he would have a Vezina in 89.
It will be interesting to see how Cujo is treated. He's not a HHoFer, but he's 4th on the NHL all time wins list.
Funny case, because he was, for a very long time, considered the 5th or 6th best goalie in the league, and the four guys ahead of him will all make the Top-30 (I'm playing safe here with Belfour). Three of them will make the Top-10.
But then, he goes to Detroit, disappoints, and from here on, it's all downhill. Sad, because he has been a very consistent goalie up to that point.
But the thing is -- he was 35 at that moment... and he was an OLD 35 years old.
I'm ranking Cujo ahead of Mike Richter, unless proven otherwise. That's all I know. Beezer? ... Note quite sure
I never liked Vernon, always thought him overrated when he wasn't being justifiably criticized.
One of the least deserving Conn Smythe winners in NHL history.
Here's hoping there are 40 more worthy players in hockey history, both in the NHL and outside, internationally and pre-NHL.
Gawd, Vernon as one of the greatest ever? ... (How can you sell me on a guy I've seen and disliked his whole career?)
Well it's not like Vernon didn't have a strong couple of years for the Flames and Wings. He was the last goalie to beat Gretzky and the Oilers in a playoff series, and also the only goalie to beat Patrick Roy in a Stanley Cup final. I'm not saying he should be on everyone's list or anyone's list I'm just curious what kind of consideration he will get.
Also in regards to Cujo I think he is criminally underrated. He took the Leafs to within a couple of games of a Cup final and also was very strong for the Blues and Oilers. Plus if you look at his record with the Wings he gets blamed for them not going anywhere but the Wings were in a transition phase while he was there. Look at the 2004 season where the Wings lost to the Flames. The last 2 games of the series when it was tied 2-2 the Wings went on to score a total of 0 goals the rest of the series while Cujo only let in 2 goals the last 2 games. Not much a goalie can do when your team doesnt score a goal in 2 games.
This may mean something to you or you could totally ignore this stat but here is win % for goalies with over 200 wins. Keep in mind modern goalies have a shoot-out which will boost Win % however it is interesting.
Rank Name GP Wins Win %
1 Ken Dryden 397 258 0.6499
2 Martin Brodeur 1191 656 0.5508
3 Gerry Cheevers 418 230 0.5502
4 Ryan Miller 460 252 0.5478
5 Bill Durnan 383 208 0.5431
6 Chris Osgood 744 401 0.5390
7 Henrik Lundqvist 468 252 0.5385
8 Patrick Roy 1029 551 0.5355
9 Dominik Hasek 735 389 0.5293
10 George Hainsworth 465 246 0.5290
11 Jacques Plante 837 437 0.5221
12 Andy Moog 713 372 0.5217
13 Marc-Andre Fleury 434 226 0.5207
14 Miikka Kiprusoff 599 311 0.5192
15 Evgeni Nabokov 605 312 0.5157
16 Tiny Thompson 553 284 0.5136
17 Marty Turco 543 275 0.5064
18 Pete Peeters 489 246 0.5031
19 Ed Belfour 963 484 0.5026
20 Rick Wamsley 407 204 0.5012
21 Cam Ward 414 205 0.4952
22 Mike Vernon 781 385 0.4930
23 Frank Brimsek 514 252 0.4903
24 Lorne Chabot 412 201 0.4879
25 Ron Hextall 608 296 0.4868
26 Curtis Joseph 943 454 0.4814
27 Turk Broda 629 302 0.4801
28 Tony Esposito 886 423 0.4774
29 Dave Kerr 427 203 0.4754
30 Tom Barrasso 777 369 0.4749
31 Ed Giacomin 609 289 0.4745
32 Roberto Luongo 727 339 0.4663
33 Reggie Lemelin 507 236 0.4655
34 Grant Fuhr 868 403 0.4643
35 Terry Sawchuk 971 447 0.4604
36 Martin Biron 500 228 0.4560
37 Don Edwards 459 208 0.4532
38 Johnny Bower 552 250 0.4529
39 Mike Richter 666 301 0.4520
40 Patrick Lalime 444 200 0.4505
41 Glenn Hall 906 407 0.4492
42 Billy Smith 680 305 0.4485
43 Rogie Vachon 795 355 0.4465
44 Bernie Parent 608 271 0.4457
45 Jose Theodore 633 282 0.4455
46 John Ross Roach 492 219 0.4451
47 Mike Liut 664 294 0.4428
48 J.S Giguere 557 246 0.4417
49 Dan Bouchard 655 286 0.4366
50 JohnVanbiesbrouck 882 374 0.4240
51 Tomas Vokoun 680 287 0.4221
52 Olaf Kolzig 719 303 0.4214
53 Nikolai Khabibulin 783 328 0.4189
54 Felix Potvin 635 266 0.4189
55 Harry Lumley 803 330 0.4110
56 Jocelyn Thibault 586 238 0.4061
57 Glenn Resch 571 231 0.4046
58 Don Beaupre 667 268 0.4018
59 Kirk McLean 612 245 0.4003
60 Kelly Hrudey 677 271 0.4003
61 Tommy Salo 526 210 0.3992
62 Roger Crozier 518 206 0.3977
63 Eddie Johnston 592 234 0.3953
64 Sean Burke 820 324 0.3951
65 Ken Wregget 575 225 0.3913
66 Gump Worsley 861 335 0.3891
67 Arturs Irbe 568 218 0.3838
68 Dwayne Roloson 606 227 0.3746
69 Bill Ranford 647 240 0.3709
70 Greg Millen 604 215 0.3560
71 Gilles Meloche 788 270 0.3426
Also, this is just wins divided by GP. you would want points percentage, in order to be more accurate, and based on total decisions, not total GP because many GP are not decisions.
Questions for the SIHR-enthusiasts here: Was Tom Paton's dominance at the goaltender position in his era enough to get him on the list? Was he far ahead of all other goalies, or just the best in a small group of goalies in an era where the game was just starting to catch on with the general public?
Questions for the SIHR-enthusiasts here: Was Tom Paton's dominance at the goaltender position in his era enough to get him on the list? Was he far ahead of all other goalies, or just the best in a small group of goalies in an era where the game was just starting to catch on with the general public?
He was the former AND the latter.
Statistically his dominance of the other goalies of his time was really incredible. Also, he lasted a relatively long time despite starting at age 30, while most other teams employed a revolving door strategy as no one else was cutting it.
Horrible competititon? Absolutely. But when judging any player you must look at the level of competition and degree of dominance. his degree of dominance might be the highest ever but his level of competition was also probably the lowest ever.
makes him an interesting case. But top-40? That's really a tough thing to sell anyone on. If we have a few of the right people on the panel, though, he'll get on a few top-60s.
Two things stick out as issues when it comes to Tom Paton:
1) Everything I've seen about him to date is team-based. Most wins, best GAA, etc. Especially in that era, team strength is so influential that it's hard to take his stats at face value.
2) He played goal at such an early stage that most his skills are fundamentally not comparable to more recent counterparts. He was essentially an 8th skater who stood in the net, so it's hard to identify exactly what he did better than his peers... and even harder to find common ground between him and goalies who adopted the traditional posture, equipment and role of a goalie.
Paton was definitely the most memorialized goalie in his peer group, but any more than that gets into a really hazy realm where concrete assertions are dubious.
Two things stick out as issues when it comes to Tom Paton:
1) Everything I've seen about him to date is team-based. Most wins, best GAA, etc. Especially in that era, team strength is so influential that it's hard to take his stats at face value.
However, when there are just 7 players on the whole team, it's much easier to allocate "credit" for defensive excellence. Even if you just give him his "fair share" for how much better than average the MAAA was at goal prevention he looks awesome (I haven't mentioned this but Iain Fyffe's system which takes league strength into account has him as easily the MLD's best goalie based on that same system I posted that concluded Nicholson was a fair bit behind Moran, Lesueur and Hern.
And honestly, even if you were to "fudge" those numbers based on the assumption that Allan Cameron and James Stewart were incredible defensively and insulated him, he'd still end up with excellent point allocation figures.
Quote:
2) He played goal at such an early stage that most his skills are fundamentally not comparable to more recent counterparts. He was essentially an 8th skater who stood in the net, so it's hard to identify exactly what he did better than his peers... and even harder to find common ground between him and goalies who adopted the traditional posture, equipment and role of a goalie.
that could be said for any goalie prior to about 1920 so that doesn't really bother me. Like any player at any position in any era, I am most interested in how dominant he was within the context of that era.
One thing I can say is that it appears he was well ahead of the curve on the stickhandling side of things in addition to just stopping the puck.
