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Roster Thoughts and Offseason Speculation for the 2012-2013 Season III

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Old
08-31-2012, 12:13 AM
  #326
Gentle Ben Kenobi
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Eberle's contract is more proof the system is broken.
$6 mil for a guy who's played 2 seasons in the league and put up 70 points once.

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08-31-2012, 06:23 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
They are. They are soft, and they aren't very good in their own end.

They have fantastic vision in the offensive zone, great feel for each other...but they are lackadaisical defensively, easily knocked off pucks, and don't perform well in the big moments as you've seen from the last couple of seasons.
Easily knocked off pucks? I'd argue the opposite, they're puck possession animals. And they're "soft" in the same way Frolov was soft in that they don't really hit but they battle guys along the boards constantly and they fight through it.

Their stats are inflated? Inflated by who, Burrows? You mean eachother? They inflate eachothers stats and that makes them overrated?

I can't believe you're making me defend these guys. Does no one else remember having mild panic attacks every time they were in the Kings end back in 2010? They're ****ing wizards. Evil, ginger wizards. They got shut down by Chara and Thomas, by far the best tandem in the NHL that season for keeping pucks out of the net, and suddenly everyone thinks they're overrated and bad. Never mind the two Art Ross trophies these guys bagged, or the Hart.

Ugh, I feel dirty

Also, if Eberle's contract is what's wrong with the NHL then so is Kopitar's.

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08-31-2012, 08:06 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Yeeaaaa we'd have to start him in the minors before the season and waivers go into effect and pretty much leave him there all year. I'd be okay with that though honestly. If there was one player who needed a full year of confidence building AHL play it's Kyle Clifford.
This is a loophole that doesn't exist, and has been discussed on these very boards before. There is a set date in the current rules when ALL waiver eligible plays have to be placed on waivers regardless of where they are playing. If the deadline for waivers is say Sept. 30, even if the Kings send Clifford down to Manchester before that date he would still need to be placed on waivers and clear them to be able to dress for the Monarchs by our imaginary date. There is no magical period where waivers don't exist to my knowledge, the date waivers begin is simply a date that is considered a deadline to clear waivers for players sent down during the summer.

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08-31-2012, 10:02 AM
  #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
Eberle's contract is more proof the system is broken.
$6 mil for a guy who's played 2 seasons in the league and put up 70 points once.
Not to really draw out the comparison, but Kopitar had 3 years and put up one year in the 70 range before getting $6.8. Eberle is sort of the most proven individual amongst their youth and forwards now, even though he still hasn't done very much. They sort of shot themselves in the foot with Hall. By giving him $6 million long term for 50 points and being consistently injured, they've sort of set the lowbar at $6m and some years at least for all their young, talented forwards. RNH and Yakupov are all but guaranteed to push beyond that range.

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08-31-2012, 10:56 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by BigBrown View Post
Easily knocked off pucks? I'd argue the opposite, they're puck possession animals. And they're "soft" in the same way Frolov was soft in that they don't really hit but they battle guys along the boards constantly and they fight through it.

Their stats are inflated? Inflated by who, Burrows? You mean eachother? They inflate eachothers stats and that makes them overrated?

I can't believe you're making me defend these guys. Does no one else remember having mild panic attacks every time they were in the Kings end back in 2010? They're ****ing wizards. Evil, ginger wizards. They got shut down by Chara and Thomas, by far the best tandem in the NHL that season for keeping pucks out of the net, and suddenly everyone thinks they're overrated and bad. Never mind the two Art Ross trophies these guys bagged, or the Hart.

Ugh, I feel dirty

Also, if Eberle's contract is what's wrong with the NHL then so is Kopitar's.
Together they are fantastic, but alone they are nothing special.

So when people say the stats are inflated...it's because you're really summing up two players together instead of judging the talent of one.

I would say together, yes they are one of the best tandems in the NHL. However, you have guys like Malkin, and Crosby, Eric Staal, and Ovechkin who ALONE can take over games. We saw what happens when Henrik does not have Daniel....

He looks like a lost puppy with no one to give the puck to. It's their greatest strength and their greatest weakness. Alone they don't seem all that good. Together they seem fantastic. Individually though, like I said, they are overrated.

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08-31-2012, 10:59 AM
  #331
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Their stats are inflated? Inflated by who, Burrows? You mean eachother? They inflate eachothers stats and that makes them overrated?
It's a combination of that and them playing the softest minutes in the league while playing zero PK time. They had the highest 5 on 5 offensive zone start percentage in the league by far. The Sedins were at 79.6 and 78.6 and Burrows was at 73.8 while the next highest player, with a 50 GP minimum, was at 66.8.

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08-31-2012, 11:35 AM
  #332
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I think it goes without saying that an elite playmaker isn't gonna be as effective if they lose an elite sniper next to them. I'd be curious to see how Daniel would do without Henrik but Henrik never seems to be injured

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08-31-2012, 11:41 AM
  #333
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It's a combination of that and them playing the softest minutes in the league while playing zero PK time. They had the highest 5 on 5 offensive zone start percentage in the league by far. The Sedins were at 79.6 and 78.6 and Burrows was at 73.8 while the next highest player, with a 50 GP minimum, was at 66.8.
This is very true. It's not that the Ginger twins stats are inflated, it's a combo of having the most shift starts in the opposing teams zone as Sam said, and they also play against the weakest competition almost ever year. AV matches them up against opposing teams 3rd and 4th lines alot. So not only are they consistently starting in the offensive zone when their shift begins but they are often having this advantage against on the PP, or against the other teams worst players... Baically their stats are inflated because their minutes are very often protected.

Contrast that with someone like Kopitar who is often on the ice against the other teams top lines and still expected to produce and the "inflated" argument should become fairly obvious.

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08-31-2012, 01:30 PM
  #334
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Kopitar is big, strong, plays center and plays a great two way game who can score and pass. Eberle is a small, one dimensional player. Not physical, not great defensively....this is too much money.

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08-31-2012, 01:38 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by tigermask48 View Post
This is very true. It's not that the Ginger twins stats are inflated, it's a combo of having the most shift starts in the opposing teams zone as Sam said, and they also play against the weakest competition almost ever year. AV matches them up against opposing teams 3rd and 4th lines alot. So not only are they consistently starting in the offensive zone when their shift begins but they are often having this advantage against on the PP, or against the other teams worst players... Baically their stats are inflated because their minutes are very often protected.

Contrast that with someone like Kopitar who is often on the ice against the other teams top lines and still expected to produce and the "inflated" argument should become fairly obvious.
And let's not forget....they are playing soft minutes against soft teams.

That division....Colorado, Edmonton, Minnesota, Calgary, Vancouver......

I mean they are playing at least a third of their season against REALLY weak teams. In fact, against the bottom 10 teams in the league...Henrik had 37 of his 81 points and was a +22. The middle 10? 21 points +0. Top 10 23 points. +1.

Kopitar in comparison: Of his 76 points, 20 came against top 10, and a -4, 30 against middle 10 and a +7, 26 against bottom 10 and a +9.

also take into consideration when reading these stats that talent wise Vancouver was better then us by far for arguably 2/3rds of the year.

I mean, i'm not trying to knock the Sedins or the Canucks in general...but they follow the same line as say.....the Capitals circa 2007-2010.

They look SO GOOD because they play in a division that is INCREDIBLY weak. Arguably the weakest division in hockey. And they play well against weak opponents. Of course they win the presidents trophy...of course they have players with padded stats.

They are great players, but the way people talk about them...part of it is natural hype by the fanbase...and the other is simply misleading statistics.

Just look at how the Sedins have performed against tough opponents in big games/series. Last years post-season Henrik was completely invisible the first two rounds against Chicago and Nashville... (13 games, 9 points (1g 8a) and a -8) (Henrik also had a 3 point games against Nashville...remove that from picture and he has 6 points in 12 games and is a -11)

He had a fantastic series against San Jose..12 points in 5 games....and then had ONE POINT IN SEVEN GAMES AGAINST BOSTON AND WAS A -7.

Daniels stats from that post season read very similarly except he had a better series against Chicago than his brother. But basically invisible against the two teams who are physical, tough, and solid defensive teams: Boston and Nashville.

THAT is why I consider them soft and overrated. When it comes down to matching up against big, physical, and hard nosed opponents..they shy away. Yea they can completely dominate teams who are loose defensively (Chicago, San Jose, Colorado etc. etc.), they exploit the weakness. But when it comes to really bearing down, playing through hard match ups...they just don't do it.

Kopitar was consistent in almost every series, and maybe had his BEST series against the two teams considered defensive minded and overtly physical in St. Louis and New Jersey.


Last edited by Jason Lewis: 08-31-2012 at 01:48 PM.
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08-31-2012, 02:38 PM
  #336
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Fehr says the CBA talks are off, league rejected their proposal. No more talks scheduled.

Bye bye NHL.

I don't care what anyone says, the players are still at fault. They insist on 57% and that isn't going to happen. The NHL will shut down for another season to get to 50%.

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08-31-2012, 02:51 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Fehr says the CBA talks are off, league rejected their proposal. No more talks scheduled.

Bye bye NHL.

I don't care what anyone says, the players are still at fault. They insist on 57% and that isn't going to happen. The NHL will shut down for another season to get to 50%.
FML

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08-31-2012, 02:59 PM
  #338
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Fehr says the CBA talks are off, league rejected their proposal. No more talks scheduled.

Bye bye NHL.

I don't care what anyone says, the players are still at fault. They insist on 57% and that isn't going to happen. The NHL will shut down for another season to get to 50%.
If this happens I only hope fans leave in droves, so when the NHL comes back just I point out to Fehr that 57% of 20% less HRR is still less money...

The whole point of these negotions should've been about ways to grow the game of hockey and increase total revenue instead bickering over a variable number...

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08-31-2012, 03:03 PM
  #339
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I keep going here to hope to see a thread that says "NHL and NHLPA agree to a deal!" but I always end up being disappointed.

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08-31-2012, 03:03 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Fehr says the CBA talks are off, league rejected their proposal. No more talks scheduled.

Bye bye NHL.

I don't care what anyone says, the players are still at fault. They insist on 57% and that isn't going to happen. The NHL will shut down for another season to get to 50%.
The players greed is astounding, these guys aren't stupid, they know the contracts being thrown around to mid level guys are ridiculous and not sustainable, yet they won't get their HRR share anywhere close to what the other leagues have.

The players are over-playing their hand yet again, the majority of owners are taking a bath in red ink and will make more money by not playing any of the games. The players think the pressure from the fans will get the owners to blink, but there will be no large fan backlash until January. The two most popular sports in America, NFL and NCAA football start this week and next, the baseball pennant races look great this year and then the NBA starts in November


Last edited by Herby: 08-31-2012 at 03:18 PM.
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08-31-2012, 03:24 PM
  #341
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I think a big part of the problem is that the ownership should be addressing area's of fair competition on their own regardless of their dealings with the NHLPA.

If half of the league is in the red for trying to keep up with the joneses then the ownership should develop their own methods of dealing with things regardless of their what the players are paid or promised wherever possible.

After reading through this mess some very important areas aren't even being discussed and that is what is partially responsible for what is happening today.


For this coming season GO REDHAWKS!!!

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08-31-2012, 03:32 PM
  #342
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Not to really draw out the comparison, but Kopitar had 3 years and put up one year in the 70 range before getting $6.8. Eberle is sort of the most proven individual amongst their youth and forwards now, even though he still hasn't done very much. They sort of shot themselves in the foot with Hall. By giving him $6 million long term for 50 points and being consistently injured, they've sort of set the lowbar at $6m and some years at least for all their young, talented forwards. RNH and Yakupov are all but guaranteed to push beyond that range.
Signed in the offseason after his 2nd year in the NHL...

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08-31-2012, 03:33 PM
  #343
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For this coming season GO REDHAWKS!!!
Gross!

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08-31-2012, 03:41 PM
  #344
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The players greed is astounding, these guys aren't stupid, they know the contracts being thrown around to mid level guys are ridiculous and not sustainable, yet they won't get their HRR share anywhere close to what the other leagues have.

The players are over-playing their hand yet again, the majority of owners are taking a bath in red ink and will make more money by not playing any of the games. The players think the pressure from the fans will get the owners to blink, but there will be no large fan backlash until January. The two most popular sports in America, NFL and NCAA football start this week and next, the baseball pennant races look great this year and then the NBA starts in November
Yup


I will enjoy this little stretch run My Oakland A's are on.

The A's have got to be the biggest surprise in MLB, this year. The A's still can't hit for sh#%#t , but boy can Billy Beane draft/trade for Pitchers.

Overall I could care less, the Kings have the Cup. Also a long layoff, followed by a short season would help the Kings get rest/healthy. If Quick can get another month of rest, that would be awesome in my book.

I would be ok as a Fan if the NHL started this year in Nov/Dec.


Last edited by damacles1156: 08-31-2012 at 03:51 PM.
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08-31-2012, 03:46 PM
  #345
Telos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minor Boarding View Post
Signed in the offseason after his 2nd year in the NHL...
Thanks for that, I was actually going to say 2 years and one 70 point range season, but I couldn't remember exactly when he signed that extension and couldn't find it. So yeah, it is, in a sense, identical. Obviously two very different players, but the contract isn't really that ludicrous.

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08-31-2012, 03:59 PM
  #346
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Is it a coincidence that the one sport where most players don't have a college education have been in 1.5 lockouts in the past 10 years...I look up on the players podium and see guys with barely a high school degree standing behind Fehr.

Guys like George Parros and Dominic Moore need to be up there.

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08-31-2012, 04:18 PM
  #347
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Gross!
Exactly.


Really I guess I will go to more Ice Caps games when I am home.

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08-31-2012, 04:18 PM
  #348
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Is it a coincidence that the one sport where most players don't have a college education have been in 1.5 lockouts in the past 10 years...I look up on the players podium and see guys with barely a high school degree standing behind Fehr.

Guys like George Parros and Dominic Moore need to be up there.
Or Parros and Westgarth...while he's still here. Princeton alum, turn rivals, turn partners.

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08-31-2012, 04:18 PM
  #349
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Is it a coincidence that the one sport where most players don't have a college education have been in 1.5 lockouts in the past 10 years...I look up on the players podium and see guys with barely a high school degree standing behind Fehr.

Guys like George Parros and Dominic Moore need to be up there.
Just because because NBA and NFL players go to college doesn't mean anything (the "education" they get there is a joke).

Most of those guys are totally bankrupt within a few years of leaving the league.

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08-31-2012, 04:21 PM
  #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Is it a coincidence that the one sport where most players don't have a college education have been in 1.5 lockouts in the past 10 years...I look up on the players podium and see guys with barely a high school degree standing behind Fehr.

Guys like George Parros and Dominic Moore need to be up there.
I don't think it matters. I doubt anyone would kick Crosby or Ovechkin off the stage for Parros and Moore. In sports, experience is worth more than education. It is not like the current players themselves are working directly on the proposals and counter-proposals. I doubt very many people even went on that tangent of thinking about their educations, mostly about how big the names are that are backing Fehr because those players themselves are valuable commodities worth a significant portion of a team's overall value. When you have a NHL team, and their overall worth is $500 million, having a $100 million player stand on that podium is a significant leverage to have.

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