HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Tomas Kaberle: The Most Underrated Habs Player on the Boards

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-01-2012, 12:37 PM
  #26
Kirk Muller
Registered User
 
Kirk Muller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Brrr -18, Gomez Cold
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,327
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
If I'm not mistaken the PP pre-Kaberle was around 12-13% and post-Kaberle it was around 17.5%. It's not world-beater, but it's an improvement.
Once again, relative to the rest of the league it dropped. Montreals ranked fell further after he was acquired thus other teams improved more than Montreal whether that naturally or the moves they made. Its all relative to the rest of the league. If they improve 1 percent and the rest of the league improved 3 percent, is that really an improvement?

Kirk Muller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 12:44 PM
  #27
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,262
vCash: 500
IMO the criticisms of Kaberle are overblown. He may not be as good as he used to be but he retains a reasonable amount of skill. Compared to some other Habs Dmen, he deserves a place on the roster unrtil a rich trade offer comes along. Weber has a better shot from the point, but that's his only advantage over Kaberle, who's a much better passer and playmaker and has a far better posiitonal sense. He's not as physical as Bouillon but Bouillon has little offensive capablity and, unfortunately, has no wingspan, so rounding him is not a great problem. How many poke checks can we expect from the Cube?

I agree with he suggestion that he suffers unfairly from Gauthier's baggage. He was brought in because the Habs lacked a PP specialist with Markov out for so long. As soon as he came aboard he amassed more points than the others, including Subban. He was more useful than an aged Spacek but with a longer contract. So what? It's just money and it's not unlikely that he could be traded mid-season. Suppose it turns out that all he needs is better conditioning.

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 01:01 PM
  #28
Hackett
HF Needs Feeny
 
Hackett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,459
vCash: 500
Kaberle is not at the Gomez level of uselessness. Anybody who says that is out to lunch. Kaberle still possess decent vision. Where he gets in trouble is in front of the crease, where he allows people to stand in prime scoring areas and tries these weak stick checks to get the puck away. The habs need more crease clearing type d-men, and Kaberle certainly does not help in that regard.

Does Kaberle still have something to offer? He's not the player he was with toronto a few years ago, but he can still be useful on certain teams, but I dont think he's a great fit in Montreal at all. The thought of diaz/kaberle, or weber/kaberle trying to play in the defensive zone is a nightmare... we've seen that already.

Remember, the only reason kaberle was brought in was because the PP was awful and PG was desperate to get results and squeak into the playoffs. Desperation can lead to strange and risky moves.

Hackett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 01:04 PM
  #29
11Goat11
Inside her
 
11Goat11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,762
vCash: 500
Great post DAC, exactly how I feel about Kaberle. It is the cap nazis who hated the deal because Spacek was coming off the books and obviously cap space is more valuable then a productive vet

I expect a nice bounceback year from Kaberle and him to be an integral part of a playoff push this year.

11Goat11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 01:31 PM
  #30
Beendair Donedat
Registered User
 
Beendair Donedat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,678
vCash: 500
Disagree with many of the points. Kaberle is the type of defensemen we do NOT need more of, a soft puck moving defenseman. He was acquired for Spacek who's contract would have expired at the end of the season... And Spacek, even though I dislike him, would have served better as a UFA to the Canadiens franchise than two years of Kaberle at 4 million per.

We gave away the chance to add size and strength on the point - an area where we are SEVERELY lacking - for two years of a player who's on GM basically said was worthless.

Now the Habs are stuck with a small and expensive blue line, with many guys all playing the same role. Makes little sense.

Beendair Donedat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 01:35 PM
  #31
FlyingKostitsyn
Registered User
 
FlyingKostitsyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Quebec
Country: Australia
Posts: 8,030
vCash: 500
I usually disagree with you DAC but here I'm with you 100%. Kaberle had a bad year by his standards, people are probably just really disappointed he wasn't the machine he was in his good Toronto years.

Kaberle acknowledged himself that he was disappointed by his last season and that he was out of shape. Recognizing a problem is the first step in the way of fixing it and its known that he's working very hard this summer. As stated in the OP its a bit foolish to consider him the 6th or 7th D, he might very well be our no4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat
Disagree with many of the points. Kaberle is the type of defensemen we do NOT need more of, a soft puck moving defenseman. He was acquired for Spacek who's contract would have expired at the end of the season... And Spacek, even though I dislike him, would have served better as a UFA to the Canadiens franchise than two years of Kaberle at 4 million per.

We gave away the chance to add size and strength on the point - an area where we are SEVERELY lacking - for two years of a player who's on GM basically said was worthless.

Now the Habs are stuck with a small and expensive blue line, with many guys all playing the same role. Makes little sense.
Markov (PMD) - Subban (all round defensemen, shooter on the PP)

Kaberle (PMD) - Gorges (defensive all the way)

Emelin (bone crusher extraordinaire) - Bouillon (old, small but ferocious)

Diaz/Weber (average and soft)

Its not nearly as bad as you're saying. Subban, Gorges, Bouillon and Emelin are not soft by any means. Its hard to say what Markov is right now but while he wasn't a physical player, he wasn't soft either. Only Bouillon, Diaz and Weber are ''small'', Markov and Subban are not tall but they are heavy (especially Subban), Kaberle is actually 6'2'' (and uses his size for reach more than physical domination obviously). More importantly they all have specific roles. Markov and Kaberle are our only real PMD and these are usually very valuable to teams.


Last edited by FlyingKostitsyn: 09-01-2012 at 01:49 PM.
FlyingKostitsyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 01:44 PM
  #32
Avim86
Registered User
 
Avim86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montreal , Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,512
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I usually disagree with you DAC but here I'm with you 100%. Kaberle had a bad year by his standards, people are probably just really disappointed he wasn't the machine he was in his good Toronto years.

Kaberle acknowledged himself that he was disappointed by his last season and that he was out of shape. Recognizing a problem is the first step in the way of fixing it and its known that he's working very hard this summer. As stated in the OP its a bit foolish to consider him the 6th or 7th D, he might very well be our no4.
5th after Markov/P.K/Gorges/Emelin in my opinion.

Avim86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 03:11 PM
  #33
PricePkPatch
Registered User
 
PricePkPatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,940
vCash: 500
Markov - Subban
Emelin - Kaberle

Are 2 good defensive PP units. The only thing that worries me, it's Emelin's puck retention still.

I've seen many times Karbele being able to control the flow of the play, and making sure we keep the initiative. He's not a gamebreaker, but he's still darn competent.

As for emelin, I'd like to see him more on the PP if he can prevent zone exits a bit better.

PricePkPatch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 03:40 PM
  #34
Talks to Goalposts
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,610
vCash: 500
Kaberle was only -2 5 on 5 last year, best outside of Subban and Gorges and he missed the first 20 games where Montreal dominated on 5 on 5. When playing 2nd pairing with Emelin he was even on goals (12 for and against) and shots/possession. That was the best 2nd pairing the team iced last year. Kaberle's big minus last year was from playing in Carolina and goals against in empty net and powerplay situations, which really just tells you he was counted on to play in important offensive shifts.


When he was on the powerplay it performed like a league average unit, when he was on the powerplay with Subban it performed like a good 1st PP pairing, not far off from Wisniewski-Subban. The PP's problem was that every other pairing but theirs sucked.

He helped the PP as much as one player could be expected to help (unless we're talking about a PP magician like Markov used to be, but there aren't many of them in the league).

You can make a pretty convincing case he was the 3rd most effective defenseman the team had in on-ice results about equal to better than Diaz and Emelin in ES situations and the teams best PP defenseman.

Talks to Goalposts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 04:03 PM
  #35
Gabe84
Bring back Bonk!
 
Gabe84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,358
vCash: 500
While I agree with the premise, I think you go a little too far in your evaluation of Kaberle. I still think he has no trade value as of now. Not sure he would get picked up on waiver either at 4.5m for two years. I don't think he brings 4.5m worth of hockey.

While his flaws are way overstated by those who don't like him, he's still a pretty bad defenseman in his own zone at this point in his career. It looks like some posters are trying to diminish his body of work while he was in Toronto, but he actually was much better in his own zone back then by positioning himself better and, above all, making better decisions without the puck (especially in 1-on-1 situations, which he has become pretty terrible at). Hell, even with the puck, once in a while he'll make a MAB-type of blunder.

As for his upside, he did play pretty good on the PP. I don't fully buy into the whole "he played bad on a bad team so he's excused", it didn't help but a good player should be able to help a team regardless. His play on the PP was alright. Some of his old moves didn't work as well as they used to. He used to sneak up behind the play and position himself close to the net to surprise the defense (a move Markov has used quite often as well) but it didn't work very often for him last year. One of the thing that he aspect he was pretty good at was keeping the puck in the zone on the powerplay, which Weber, Diaz, Subban and Spacek were all pretty terrible at early in the season. With Kaberle, whenever the puck got near him, he'd keep it in the zone. His passes and plays on the powerplay were still pretty good.

I think a lot of this could be due to his poor conditioning last season. Probably led to some confidence issues. He needs to stay focused and keep his game simple. And he really, really needs to come into camp in shape this time.

The fact that half a season of a bad Jaroslav Spacek (he really was having a disappointing season leading up to the trade) is all it took to get him is pretty telling. If his play doesn't get any better next year, I doubt he starts 2013-2014 in the NHL. Some call him an offensive defenseman and justify this as to why he would have some trade value, I think he's mostly regarded as a powerplay specialist at this point, and those aren't worth that much.

Gabe84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 04:16 PM
  #36
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Agnostic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,100
vCash: 500
There is no such thing as an underrated player for this team on this board. You can usually cut a players worth here by 1/2 and be about close.

On Kaberle, he's worn the underrated label for a decade, which if you think about it eventually makes you overrated. That's where Kaberle was when he came to the Habs and that's where he now - Working off some undeserved reputation.

Agnostic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 04:30 PM
  #37
Craig71
Registered User
 
Craig71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,862
vCash: 500
Kaberle is similar to Markov and he has stronger knees, thats why he is here. He was brought here in desperation and will remain here for the same reason.

Craig71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 04:43 PM
  #38
Bronn
Registered Sellsword
 
Bronn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Highest Bidder
Posts: 10,912
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyB11 View Post
Over the last two years?? Last year he struggled, especially early on, and by his own admission wasn't prepared for the season in part due to the shorter-than-usual off season (Leafs players are always used to a longer offseason,especially compared to the 10-11 Bruins. Fair enough.

.
Being out of shape is not a valid reason. As a professional athlete making millions it's his responsability to show in shape at the camp if only as a sign of respect to his bosses and the fans who pay his salary. That's called work ethic.

That said i wasn't as harsh as other on Kaberle even though i cannot say that i was impressed either. As i said before if the Leafs version of Kaberle shows off and Markov is back to near 100 % the Habs are going to be in good position. A pipre dream i know but one can only hope.

Bronn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 05:08 PM
  #39
habsfanatics
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,701
vCash: 500
I usually agree with you dachampion, but I don't this time around.

I think kaberle sucks.

habsfanatics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 05:33 PM
  #40
Mrb1p
Registered User
 
Mrb1p's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Citizen of the world
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,333
vCash: 500
I'd take Tyutin over Kaberle 10 times out of 10. He's the real underrated player.

But I agree with most of what you said. And you see clearly that Burke made good, good trades.

Mrb1p is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 05:44 PM
  #41
Blind Gardien
Global Moderator
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 19,547
vCash: 500
Kaberle was awful for the Habs last year. And I think he was probably about similarly awful the year before, although I didn't watch him as closely so couldn't say for sure.

One June 30th, I would have given him away for free in order to be rid of his cap hit, in the hopes (perhaps vain) that I could spend his money more fruitfully on the UFA market.

Today, I'm resigned to keeping him, since we have nothing better to do with his cap space and there is still some hope that he might bounce back, that he might serve as a reasonable insurance policy (say on Markov) and ultimately save us having to make another ill-advised trade (like the one that brought Kaberle in in the first place) in a desperate bid to try to replace the irreplaceable. Kaberle was not put in a position to succeed last season in joining a plummetting team with no really good complementary defense partner, so I'm willing to think that maybe last season wasn't the Final Word on Kaberle.

But I think folks are fooling themselves if they want to go the revisionist route and overlook how bad Kaberle was last season.

Blind Gardien is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 06:06 PM
  #42
Crimson Skorpion
Global Moderator
 
Crimson Skorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Lachine, Quebec
Country: Germany
Posts: 27,957
vCash: 50
Awards:
I don't think a few flashy moves at BioSteel camp will convince me that he'll be a whole new player this upcoming season. Yes, he did come in last year and put up points in his first few games. Nobody can doubt his offensive input to the team and his quick decision making when he has the puck. He would actually look decent feeding Markov the puck on the PP.

But I can't, for the life of me, overlook just how bad he is defensively. Chalk it up to his concussion he suffered back in '07 as a reason he comes off as soft, I can't really blame him for that. However, his overall defensive work is so poor, he'll hurt the team more than he does good offensively.

As much as I can try to remain hopeful that he turns it around and changes everyone's mind, I believe he'll come out the same as last year. Put up some offense, but ultimately give up way more chances, odd-man rushes, and goals against.

__________________
Shawn Wilken,
Head of Hockey Department
LastWordOnSports.com


Want to write for us? Head to lastwordonsports.com/writeforus and apply!
Crimson Skorpion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 07:55 PM
  #43
Danadiens
Registered User
 
Danadiens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 638
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Once again, relative to the rest of the league it dropped. Montreals ranked fell further after he was acquired thus other teams improved more than Montreal whether that naturally or the moves they made. Its all relative to the rest of the league. If they improve 1 percent and the rest of the league improved 3 percent, is that really an improvement?
Yes it is still an improvement. If other teams improved more, good for them. But what you said is wrong on so many levels.

Danadiens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 08:29 PM
  #44
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 10,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I hated the Kaberle trade assuming they didn't think Markov was never coming back, but Kaberle has become underrated here. He has obvious flaws but 40 point defenders don't grow on trees, and despite this board's fantasy of having nothing but 6'5" grinders who might have no hands but can fight, a guy like Kaberle is still a useful role player even though I don't think having both him and Markov on the team is necessary since both are shells of what they once were.

But I guess it fits the narrative that Gauthier is the great satan who is responsible for everything bad in the world and not a mediocre GM with no communication skills who made some terrible panic moves in the last year.
Why do you make posts like this?

Lets take away the hyperbole and look objectively at the Montreal Canadiens over the past several seasons.

Gauthier is not the great satan. No, he is an ineffective GM who did not have a very good concept of what it takes to win in the NHL. His record of failure speaks for itself regardless of where he has been offering his services. Good riddance.

Now to your first point that I highlighted. The Habs were the softest team in the League with no grit and no one standing up for our skilled players. We had a team with a 4th line composed of 2nd line players without the skill to play on any team's second line.

This team needed added toughness. Still could use a tough DMan willing to drop the gloves. Which leads me to Kaberle. He may be a usable DMan on a team that is not soft on D. But.......Gauthier filled this team with undersized DMen who cannot clear players out of the crease. Nor will our DMen stand up for our forwards or even our goalie.

Kaberle is not what this team needs right now. He is a square peg on a team full of square pegs when what is needed is something a little more rounded.

Trade him (as well as Diaz and Weber)

SouthernHab is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 09:28 PM
  #45
OneSharpMarble
Registered User
 
OneSharpMarble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,221
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi2teD View Post
Completely agree. He was an offensive defenseman stuck on one of the worst offensive teams in the league, playing in a defensive/dump and chase system.... And he still put up points! This guy is still one of the leagues top passer and PPqbs. I hope he has a big year, actually I kind of expect a big year from him.
I would be more worried about who will actually shoot the puck this year than Kaberle. His passing is still excellent, Subban shot not so much. Who after that? Weber, Diaz and Emelin?

We could really use Beaulieus point shot right now.

OneSharpMarble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 10:55 PM
  #46
bsl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Once again, relative to the rest of the league it dropped. Montreals ranked fell further after he was acquired thus other teams improved more than Montreal whether that naturally or the moves they made. Its all relative to the rest of the league. If they improve 1 percent and the rest of the league improved 3 percent, is that really an improvement?
Yes, it is an improvement. Of 1%.

bsl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 10:57 PM
  #47
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,506
vCash: 500
Is it true that the entire league improved?

What happened, were there 3 or 4 elite shutdown dmen who got injured at the same time?

DAChampion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 11:04 PM
  #48
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,262
vCash: 500
I asy let's wait until the season starts whenever that is). May be Kaberle will shine, maybe not. If he does, the Habs will get off to a much better start. (Remember, only the Bruins atarted more slowly last season.)

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2012, 11:27 PM
  #49
bsl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Why do you make posts like this?

Lets take away the hyperbole and look objectively at the Montreal Canadiens over the past several seasons.

Gauthier is not the great satan. No, he is an ineffective GM who did not have a very good concept of what it takes to win in the NHL. His record of failure speaks for itself regardless of where he has been offering his services. Good riddance.

Now to your first point that I highlighted. The Habs were the softest team in the League with no grit and no one standing up for our skilled players. We had a team with a 4th line composed of 2nd line players without the skill to play on any team's second line.

This team needed added toughness. Still could use a tough DMan willing to drop the gloves. Which leads me to Kaberle. He may be a usable DMan on a team that is not soft on D. But.......Gauthier filled this team with undersized DMen who cannot clear players out of the crease. Nor will our DMen stand up for our forwards or even our goalie.

Kaberle is not what this team needs right now. He is a square peg on a team full of square pegs when what is needed is something a little more rounded.

Trade him (as well as Diaz and Weber)
Uh. He was actually saying that PG is not the great satan.

bsl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2012, 01:10 AM
  #50
Kirk Muller
Registered User
 
Kirk Muller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Brrr -18, Gomez Cold
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,327
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Yes, it is an improvement. Of 1%.
and yet you are still falling further behind the rest of the league. I guess congrats to Kaberle for improving Montreal PP percentage yet lower their league wide rank.

Kirk Muller is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:05 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.