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09-02-2012, 01:18 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Sorry but I disagree. I don't think he's underrated. I think his body of work over the past two years speaks for itself. He's a player I wanted the Habs to trade for when he was with the leafs. He was a very good player and a great offensive defenseman. That we then, this is now. Nothing over the past 2 years says Kaberle is the player he was. I HOPE he can turn it around but that doesn't make him underrated it makes him an underachiever or washed up. Either way no one is saying he doesn't have talent, hes just not using it.
This pretty much sums it up perfectly. I was so tired of turning my head away from the tv for a split second, then looking back to see a close up of Kaberle doing the skate of shame back to the bench.

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09-02-2012, 01:49 AM
  #52
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Why do you make posts like this?

Lets take away the hyperbole and look objectively at the Montreal Canadiens over the past several seasons.

Gauthier is not the great satan. No, he is an ineffective GM who did not have a very good concept of what it takes to win in the NHL. His record of failure speaks for itself regardless of where he has been offering his services. Good riddance.

Now to your first point that I highlighted. The Habs were the softest team in the League with no grit and no one standing up for our skilled players. We had a team with a 4th line composed of 2nd line players without the skill to play on any team's second line.

This team needed added toughness. Still could use a tough DMan willing to drop the gloves. Which leads me to Kaberle. He may be a usable DMan on a team that is not soft on D. But.......Gauthier filled this team with undersized DMen who cannot clear players out of the crease. Nor will our DMen stand up for our forwards or even our goalie.

Kaberle is not what this team needs right now. He is a square peg on a team full of square pegs when what is needed is something a little more rounded.

Trade him (as well as Diaz and Weber)
Bergevin will undoubtedly enjoy what Gauthier has set him up with. 7 picks in the first two rounds of two deep drafts and a solid core of players to build around not to mention our first true powerforward in probably 20 years.

Gauthier made some tough choices that the likes of you and the rest would have villified him for no matter the direction he chose, I think that is pretty apparent.

You go on and on ad nauseum about Kaberle who is the smallest part of the problem, we get it. Apparently Kaberle caused us to lose our first 7 games and pretty much wrote the season off. You are always good for a laugh.

Remember when you were saying "Gauthier will never work in the NHL again!" That is gone eh? Apparently when our PP was awful and Martin was playing gomez instead of Cole all we needed was some "toughness" we just needed to win some fights and like magic our team would know how to get out of it's zone.

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09-02-2012, 02:20 AM
  #53
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Kaberle is a good stopgap. He was good enough with the Bruins and Toronto because they both had a bunch a physical Dman. That's the problem here. Who's going to clear the net if our 3rd pairing is Kaberle-Bouillon, or worse ? It will be up to Therrien's faults or merits as a coach.

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09-02-2012, 02:22 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF de Mars View Post
Kaberle is a good stopgap. He was good enough with the Bruins and Toronto because they both had a bunch a physical Dman. That's the problem here. Who's going to clear the net if our 3rd pairing is Kaberle-Bouillon, or worse ? It will be up to Therrien's faults or merits as a coach.
Basically the problem. One of Kaberle, Diaz and Weber needs to go. We need a another physical D or veteran defensive d-man.

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09-02-2012, 05:53 AM
  #55
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Most underrated Habs is David Desharnais, as evidenced by the ridiculous thread on his future contract.

Kaberle? He's a semi-useful asset I'd rather not have at this point.

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09-02-2012, 06:46 AM
  #56
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Kaberle is seen as fine for some 'cause of what we have. Sorry but that's more a sign of what we don't have than a sign that we've got a good player. He is a sieve defensively who makes bonehead mistakes after another. Strange how things worked...you do hope that the people praising Kaberle aren't the ones who used to bash Bergeron or even Streit. 'Cause all of them had their problems has well, yet were a pretty good asset on the PP. But somehow, Kaberle is underrated? Come on. He was not an asset in Boston, he was a liability. So Boston couldn't pay him? Why did we? And Boston don't have plenty of stars on D. And Rutherford calling him a mistake.

I will believe that we would need more a punishing defensive D than a guy like Kaberle. And one of my problems with him is exactly. Having him on board provides a lack of other types of D.

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09-02-2012, 08:26 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Kaberle is seen as fine for some 'cause of what we have. Sorry but that's more a sign of what we don't have than a sign that we've got a good player. He is a sieve defensively who makes bonehead mistakes after another. Strange how things worked...you do hope that the people praising Kaberle aren't the ones who used to bash Bergeron or even Streit. 'Cause all of them had their problems has well, yet were a pretty good asset on the PP. But somehow, Kaberle is underrated? Come on. He was not an asset in Boston, he was a liability. So Boston couldn't pay him? Why did we? And Boston don't have plenty of stars on D. And Rutherford calling him a mistake.

I will believe that we would need more a punishing defensive D than a guy like Kaberle. And one of my problems with him is exactly. Having him on board provides a lack of other types of D.
There are six defensemen on a team, let's not hold it against Kaberle that he isn't mean and 6'6" a la Chris Pronger in his prime.

Theoretically, with the six positions, you should be able to find players that complement each other.

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09-02-2012, 08:42 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
There are six defensemen on a team, let's not hold it against Kaberle that he isn't mean and 6'6" a la Chris Pronger in his prime.

Theoretically, with the six positions, you should be able to find players that complement each other.
Exactly.

We have 2 defenseman capable of making Kaberle look better on the ice. Gorges and Subban. Gorges is one of the best in his zone in the league and Subban isnt far behind, plus he has the ability to punish people open ice, on the boards and in front of the net.

If anything, this is on Bergevin and Therrien for bringing on a guy like Bouillon. Regardless of whether it's Kaberle, Diaz or Weber that gets paired with him or with each other on that pairing we are going to have a hard time clearing the net.

Markov, Kaberle and Emelin all need to play the left side to be effective. Bergevin should have gone out and got a big RD to cover for Kaberle. Via trade or UFA, doesn't matter.

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09-02-2012, 11:56 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Most underrated Habs is David Desharnais, as evidenced by the ridiculous thread on his future contract.

Kaberle? He's a semi-useful asset I'd rather not have at this point.
Haven't checked that thread out, but in my opinion, he'll be a ~60 point player per year max. Don't see him developing into anything better than that (not good enough wingers for better stats).

In Kaberle's case, the money should've been used elsewhere. I'd rather not have him in Montreal.

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09-02-2012, 12:02 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by JGRB
Exactly.

We have 2 defenseman capable of making Kaberle look better on the ice. Gorges and Subban. Gorges is one of the best in his zone in the league and Subban isnt far behind, plus he has the ability to punish people open ice, on the boards and in front of the net.

If anything, this is on Bergevin and Therrien for bringing on a guy like Bouillon. Regardless of whether it's Kaberle, Diaz or Weber that gets paired with him or with each other on that pairing we are going to have a hard time clearing the net.

Markov, Kaberle and Emelin all need to play the left side to be effective. Bergevin should have gone out and got a big RD to cover for Kaberle. Via trade or UFA, doesn't matter.
I agree. Bringing Bouillon was a bit baffling, I think Bergevin did it on demand from Therrien but it wasn't the best decision. I think Emelin will end up paired with Bouillon, it could be an effective unit. Otherwise one of Gorges or Subban needs to play with Kaberle, as you say.

Markov-Subban
Kaberle-Gorges

These two pairs would be great at helping with offense.


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Originally Posted by PhysicX View Post
Haven't checked that thread out, but in my opinion, he'll be a ~60 point player per year max. Don't see him developing into anything better than that (not good enough wingers for better stats).
And of all our prospects only Galchenyuk projects to be better than that.

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09-02-2012, 12:06 PM
  #61
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And of all our prospects only Galchenyuk projects to be better than that.
Don't want this to go really off-topic, as this thread is about Tomas Kaberle, but what about Gallagher? Will he ever make the team then?

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09-02-2012, 12:22 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Kaberle is seen as fine for some 'cause of what we have. Sorry but that's more a sign of what we don't have than a sign that we've got a good player. He is a sieve defensively who makes bonehead mistakes after another. Strange how things worked...you do hope that the people praising Kaberle aren't the ones who used to bash Bergeron or even Streit. 'Cause all of them had their problems has well, yet were a pretty good asset on the PP. But somehow, Kaberle is underrated? Come on. He was not an asset in Boston, he was a liability. So Boston couldn't pay him? Why did we? And Boston don't have plenty of stars on D. And Rutherford calling him a mistake.

I will believe that we would need more a punishing defensive D than a guy like Kaberle. And one of my problems with him is exactly. Having him on board provides a lack of other types of D.
I'm more upset at the presence of Boullion as the alternative than I am at Kaberle.

I don't mean to hate on the cube, I've always liked him and he will bring the grit, but we really could have used some size in that role. Kaberle is what he is, we still don't yet know what we have in Markov so Kaberle at the very least is insurance, but none of our stay at home defenders are very intimidating right now. Emelin can grow into that role, but as good as Gorges is, he scares nobody. Which is fine since Gorges is a top 4 defensive player, but to balance it out, we could really use a big MFer in the bottom 6/7.

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09-02-2012, 12:36 PM
  #63
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I'm more upset at the presence of Boullion as the alternative than I am at Kaberle.

I don't mean to hate on the cube, I've always liked him and he will bring the grit, but we really could have used some size in that role. Kaberle is what he is, we still don't yet know what we have in Markov so Kaberle at the very least is insurance, but none of our stay at home defenders are very intimidating right now. Emelin can grow into that role, but as good as Gorges is, he scares nobody. Which is fine since Gorges is a top 4 defensive player, but to balance it out, we could really use a big MFer in the bottom 6/7.
This hit the issue on the nose I think. Kaberle isn't really a bad player, he's a high scoring event player. Last year the tendency for the other team to score against him was basically compensated by the Habs tendency to score lots with him on the ice. On even strength its all about two-way game, not the individual components. Kaberle exists in the balance of some excellent offensive skills and terrible defensive ones.

Neither Kaberle's huge point totals nor his brutal goals/shots/chances against alone tells you of his worth, its the combination. Last year that combination was worth -2 in 5 on 5 play in soft minutes. Not horrible but not good either. He's got 5th defenseman overall talent with an unbalanced skill set and needs managed minutes. Which is better than a Bergeron, who is largely a 7-8th defenseman on overall merit with some PP and offensive zone skills.

The disappointment was that the team didn't look to help the Kaberle situation by finding a 5-6 defender to pair with him that will smooth out some of his deficiencies. I don't particularly care for Boullion in that role.

Emelin is the best qualified to play with Kaberle, they were a decent pairing last year, but the signs point to him being counted on to play a top 4 role.

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09-02-2012, 12:55 PM
  #64
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Tomas Kaberle is the second Tomas on our team.

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09-02-2012, 01:21 PM
  #65
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Why would people hate Bouillon when the guy is not even sure to be top 6? Can we say the same for Kaberle?

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09-02-2012, 01:26 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
There are six defensemen on a team, let's not hold it against Kaberle that he isn't mean and 6'6" a la Chris Pronger in his prime.

Theoretically, with the six positions, you should be able to find players that complement each other.
I hold it against any player who has only 1 good trait to work on. So if you are unable to be from great to incredible with this 1 trait of yours, you don't belong on my team. I mean, on a CONTENDING team. Not only you hope that your top 6 would have a great mix, but most likely your top 4. Kaberle is most likely in this top 4.

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09-02-2012, 02:10 PM
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Kool aid is flowing strong in this thread...

Kaberle "underrated" ?

Not to anyone whose actually been watching him play.

He's a 4.25m$ veteran dman who 4 consecutive NHL coaches used as minimally as they could at ES.

Does he have skill, absolutely, so does Gomez...

But he's clearly changed something in his approach to the game which has significantly reduced his effectiveness. Maybe he looked in the mirror this summer and realizes he's pissing away what could easily be 3-5 more years of top 4 caliber play, or maybe he looks at his bank statement and guaranteed contract and smiles.

We will know soon enough once the season starts if he's committed to paying the price, but his recent body of work suggests otherwise, and that does not make him " underrated"

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09-02-2012, 02:14 PM
  #68
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Why would people hate Bouillon when the guy is not even sure to be top 6? Can we say the same for Kaberle?
I think the hate on Boullion has more to do with the 'smurf' complex than his actual playing ability.

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09-02-2012, 02:18 PM
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Kool aid is flowing strong in this thread...

Kaberle "underrated" ?

Not to anyone whose actually been watching him play.

He's a 4.25m$ veteran dman who 4 consecutive NHL coaches used as minimally as they could at ES.

Does he have skill, absolutely, so does Gomez...

But he's clearly changed something in his approach to the game which has significantly reduced his effectiveness. Maybe he looked in the mirror this summer and realizes he's pissing away what could easily be 3-5 more years of top 4 caliber play, or maybe he looks at his bank statement and guaranteed contract and smiles.

We will know soon enough once the season starts if he's committed to paying the price, but his recent body of work suggests otherwise, and that does not make him " underrated"
I think the point is we shouldn't completely discount him, which is what many people here do. He should be given a legit chance to become an impact player again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhysicX
Don't want this to go really off-topic, as this thread is about Tomas Kaberle, but what about Gallagher? Will he ever make the team then?
Brad Marchand is a comparable player, he hasn't scored 60 pt yet but nobody is going to claim that he's not an NHLer. I think Gallagher is going to be a solid 50pt guy, 25g 25a with loads of energy and guts. 60pts is a lot in today's NHL, middle tier first liner numbers.

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09-02-2012, 02:18 PM
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I think the hate on Boullion has more to do with the 'smurf' complex than his actual playing ability.
Less to do with his height than his actual ability. The habs were lacking a guy who could clear the crease. Bouillon can't really do that. He's just a plug we signed. Don't hate it, but I don't expect him to bring any dimension we were lacking in.

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09-02-2012, 02:34 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Kool aid is flowing strong in this thread...

Kaberle "underrated" ?

Not to anyone whose actually been watching him play.

He's a 4.25m$ veteran dman who 4 consecutive NHL coaches used as minimally as they could at ES.

Does he have skill, absolutely, so does Gomez...

But he's clearly changed something in his approach to the game which has significantly reduced his effectiveness. Maybe he looked in the mirror this summer and realizes he's pissing away what could easily be 3-5 more years of top 4 caliber play, or maybe he looks at his bank statement and guaranteed contract and smiles.

We will know soon enough once the season starts if he's committed to paying the price, but his recent body of work suggests otherwise, and that does not make him " underrated"
I don't think anyone is arguing that he's a good top 4 option. If they are then they are dead wrong IMO.

Its more that the denigration has gone too far. For next season he looks to probably bring more to the table than say, Diaz.

We're past the point of expecting "good" from Kaberle, but not past the point of "useful."

As for trade value, people should keep in mind he was way better for Montreal than he was for Carolina, where he was brutal which is why his market value was a few months of Spacek. The player that was in Montreal should resemble the market value of a very similar player and contract in Zidlicky, not worth much but movable for minor assets. That's a matter of a team suddenly finding themselves short on puckmovement and PP skill, which is usually a matter of mid-season injuries.

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09-02-2012, 05:01 PM
  #72
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Bergevin will undoubtedly enjoy what Gauthier has set him up with. 7 picks in the first two rounds of two deep drafts and a solid core of players to build around not to mention our first true powerforward in probably 20 years.

Gauthier made some tough choices that the likes of you and the rest would have villified him for no matter the direction he chose, I think that is pretty apparent.

You go on and on ad nauseum about Kaberle who is the smallest part of the problem, we get it. Apparently Kaberle caused us to lose our first 7 games and pretty much wrote the season off. You are always good for a laugh.

Remember when you were saying "Gauthier will never work in the NHL again!" That is gone eh? Apparently when our PP was awful and Martin was playing gomez instead of Cole all we needed was some "toughness" we just needed to win some fights and like magic our team would know how to get out of it's zone.
This is a thread about Kaberle.........

I never said that about Gauthier to the best of my recollection. All I ever said about Gauthier is that he needs to be gone from Montreal. For that, I am thankful. He is now another team's problem.

Did you like our 4th line? Did you like watching our DMen unable to clear anyone out from the front of the crease?

Last place in the East regards...........

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09-02-2012, 07:19 PM
  #73
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I think the hate on Boullion has more to do with the 'smurf' complex than his actual playing ability.
Maybe so. And everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion. Yet, if there's a smurf who doesn't play his size, it's him. AND we are talking about a guy, who will most likely not be a gimme top 6 every single night. While Kaberle definately is.

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09-02-2012, 08:19 PM
  #74
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Kaberle, unlike Gomez, is not a total lost case. The guy can improve especially if he shows up in good physical shape.

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09-02-2012, 08:22 PM
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This is a thread about Kaberle.........

I never said that about Gauthier to the best of my recollection. All I ever said about Gauthier is that he needs to be gone from Montreal. For that, I am thankful. He is now another team's problem.

Did you like our 4th line? Did you like watching our DMen unable to clear anyone out from the front of the crease?

Last place in the East regards...........
Take your own advice, you were the one blathering on about Gauthier with your usual bias.

So now our 4th line was the problem? Geez if only our 4th line was rolling we would have won the cup instead of being last in the east. I will take Chicagos opinion of Gauthier over yours.

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