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Old
08-30-2012, 02:13 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
Your kidding right. Franson is a unsigned RFA that is a 7th D on a bad defensive team and it's questionable if Colborne will ever make the NHL. You'll get flamed from Oiler fans for this one.
You think MPS and Tuebert are on the fast track to the NHL? There's one NHL player in that deal Franson and he's better than you suggest.

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08-30-2012, 02:15 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
I find it funny Edmonton is saying no but come on why is Toronto trading away one of their only center prospects to acquire a player they already have in JVR? Makes no sense.

Also seriously MP5 is better than Colbourne? I mean I see them on even playing field only thing is Colbourne has a slight edge because he can play center.
JVR is lightyears better than MPS.

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08-30-2012, 02:54 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birddog View Post
You think MPS and Tuebert are on the fast track to the NHL? There's one NHL player in that deal Franson and he's better than you suggest.
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
JVR is lightyears better than MPS.
2 really helpful and well thought out posts. You have obviously really thought things through before posting.

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Old
08-30-2012, 02:56 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by superrich View Post
Not sure why so many are calling Franson a #7 pylon D-man. He would definitely be make Edmonton's defense better, which I know isn't saying much. He should not have been a scratch as much as he has been last year with the Leafs. Schenn and Komisarek had much worse years. I actually think he played well this year and can see him getting better once he gets a chance to play regularly and starts using his size.

The Leafs need more prospects like Colborne and should have no interest in trading him at this point, especially since the Leafs have enough wingers, and already have lots of D prospects.
How does he make it better. Leaf fans keep saying that garbage so they must believe i ignoring you were 2nd worst defensive team in the league.

Petry-Smid (Smid managed to be plus and Petry played alot better when put with Smid)

Schultz-Whitney (Schultz was aquired to add composure and stability to second pairing and Whitney is better then Franson)

J Schultz-Peckham/Sutton (Free agent signing, same age as Hall and crew, managment wants him to develop with sheltered minutes and power play time. Need someone physical to play with him which isnt Franson)


So leaf fans. What pairing does he go on, who does he kick off and how does it make the team better. Keeping in mind these current d pairing didnt cost the team MPS

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08-30-2012, 03:01 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
You're missing Luke Schenn from the comparison -- that's a pretty good defenceman with a pretty big name to prevent Franson from getting ice time this past year.

As for Schultz, a team can give ice time to inexperienced players all day, at some point they've gotta decide that they'd rather win games.

My assessment of Paajarvi is 100% accurate. He's an AHL player on the worst team in the league.
I love failed logic. Because Edmonton has the worst top 6 wingers in the league.

Not a center so he has to beat out Hall, Eberle, Hemsky and Smyth (fan favorite just traded himself to the team).

Yea what a bum couldnt get passed that competition compared to Franson who couldnt beat out Komisarek and the rest of the leafs D even if it was 2nd worst in the league

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08-30-2012, 03:41 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I'm not suggesting he's the right player for Edmonton to burn a ton of assets on. But to completely dismiss the notion of adding a defencman superior to those that would presently be in the opening day lineup is ridiculous.
Ok here's the deal, Edmonton needs to make some trades to become a condender, it's not even debatable. However they need to make the right trades, at the right time, for the right players. There is no point in making trades for the sake of making trades and ending up with a bunch of players which simply don't fit together.
Personally I have nothing against Franson, as I said earlier I have followed Franson since he was a Giant, he was my favorite player on that Memorial cup winning team.
I thought he would have been drafted higher than he was. His offense has never been in question, he has a good shot, good stretch pass and is generally good with the puck.
I hoped he would have developed his defensive game but he has not succeeded in doing so to the extent needed, and he still is not using his frame like he should. There is a reason Nashville let him go for next to nothing.
Had Edmonton not signed Justin Schultz, and I know I am in the minority here, I would have considered trading for Franson (although it would have only been a stop gap solution )as a RH puck mover, however we did get Schultz who has much greater upside. If we traded for Franson we'd have to give him pp time and sheltered even strength minutes, exactly the minutes we need to give to Schultz so I hope this explains why there would simply be no space on the Oilers for Franson.
As far as their defense is concerned, if it is not possible to trade for a #1D then we need to get a guy who will force one of our top 4 into the bottom pairing, Franson is not that guy if we are trying to build a contender.
Making the wrong trades now will come back to bite our ass later.
Apologies for the long post.

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Old
08-30-2012, 03:52 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Somebody seems really content with their 2nd last place finish... You'd think that fans of an organization such as Edmonton would actually be striving for improvement, not trying to convince the world that they don't want anybody else's players.
You are a fan of Toronto right. A team that had a whopping 6 more points...

Its so funny because in every thread with Leaf fans and Oiler fans the Leaf fans are so smug and degrading, always comments about wanting to improve the team not more picks etc.

It actually surprised me when I look at the standing and see your team was as big a joke as ours just worse defensively yet Leaf fans are always talking down to us

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Old
08-30-2012, 05:08 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Somebody seems really content with their 2nd last place finish... You'd think that fans of an organization such as Edmonton would actually be striving for improvement, not trying to convince the world that they don't want anybody else's players.
You improve by getting good players. Not spare parts. Especially, spare parts of the 26th place team. The Oilers are aiming a little higher than that.

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Old
08-30-2012, 05:26 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by stryfe604 View Post
Paajarvi, 2013 2nd round pick

for

Franson and Ashton


?


nice bit of sarcasm there

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Old
08-30-2012, 11:01 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
It's not a matter of skipping over proof... it's a matter of an unwillingness of Oiler fans to accept the fact that he'd be an upgrade to their blueline.

I'm not saying it makes sense to make this move for either team, I'm saying that it's ludicrous to think that Franson wouldn't be desired by the Oilers.
I am not sure if you think that all Oiler fans are delusional and that we do not recognize the holes on this team. Personally, I've watched them since 1972 and over that time I have seen great teams and really bad teams. It is not so hard to tell the difference between these two extremes. I also got to watch Corey Potter play a much greater role than anyone would ever imagine, so I have no problem with the Oilers bringing someone in to improve the defense. But let's be honest here, the case you have made in this thread is extremely weak.

You began with a claim that Franson was the best player in the OP's deal suggesting that:

Quote:
Franson is a legitimate NHL defenceman who's capable of playing close to 20 minutes a night and putting up around 30 points on a team's 2nd powerplay unit.
Of course you noted that he did not do so on the Leafs and took time to explain that this was due to the Leafs significant depth which included such legit top 4 guys as Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Liles, Komisarek, & Schenn. Of course only the first three are actually top four defensemen at this point, and beyond that at 25 Franson has never been close to being a 20 minute defenseman.

Eventually you admitted that he would be a third pairing guy on either the Leafs or the Oilers, and that the Oilers would not deal a prospect like Paajarvi for him. It is pretty tough for a third pairing dman who does not pk to get 20 minutes a night unless he gets a ton of pp time. So the next claim is that he would for sure play on the Oilers pp and would be able to make the team better because of his presence. When presented with evidence of why this would likely not be the case, your retort was that someone who did not see a role for Franson on one of the top pp's in the NHL was simply content with losing.

Of course there is still the issue that Franson has never had much impact on any team's pp. In his three NHL seasons he has 6,6 and 7 points on the pp. (In contrast the legendary Corey Potter had 12 points last year on the pp.) So at best Franson has been the 4th banana playing about 20 seconds per power play on two teams that both run two dmen as key components on each of their pp units, something the Oilers do not do because of the quality of their forwards.

At this point I'm am not seeing the compelling case for Franson on the Oilers pp.

So here we are:

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
He'd be one of their 6 best defencemen and top 3 offensive defencemen. It really is that simple... you can look for a multitude of specific reasons why you don't want him, and I could look for a multitude of specific reasons why you do want. At the end of the day, it's all ####. You get better by getting better players. Franson is a better player than what the Oilers have.
You say this as if we are to take it to be a fact yet in all honesty I am still waiting for the multitude of reasons why Franson would have anything more than a very marginal impact on the Oilers abilitry to win hockey games. In fact to make your claim that he would be a top six defenseman and one of their top three ofeensive dmen accurate it is certainly the case that at the very least he would have to be better than Justin Schultz who is probably the current favourite for the third pairing RHD.

The truth is that neither of us knows how Shcultz will do in his first year. But what we do know is that Gardiner quite easily displaced Franson as a rookie just as Jonathan Blum did the year before. Now no one is going to say for sure that Schultz will have the type of season that Gardiner had, but up until last year Schultz was considered the better player, even by their college coach, with a definite edge on the offensive side. We also know that the plan is to give Shultz the chance to prove what he has. So maybe Franson is not so obviously going to play in the Oilers top 6.

At this point your best hope is that Schultz struggles and that Franson can be compared to guys like Peckham, Teubert and Potter. At this stage he is better than all three. But Peckham is actually a pretty valuable pk'er, something that is much more important for the Oilers success than anything that Franson brings to the table. He also adds a level of toughness that the team lacks. So while Franson is a better hockey player than Peckham, it is not at all clear that he brings more of what the team actually needs to the table then Peckham.

Finally, I'll point out that the Oilers traded Gilbert, a much better offensive dman than Franson, for the stay at home Schultz. This was before they signed J. Schultz. This shows that they are not so fixated on PMD's. They also have the Kurtis Foster experiment fresh in their mind, so a one dimensional offensive dman on the thr=ird pairing is something OIler fans know a lot about.


Last edited by Fourier: 08-30-2012 at 11:07 PM.
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Old
08-31-2012, 12:01 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I am not sure if you think that all Oiler fans are delusional and that we do not recognize the holes on this team. Personally, I've watched them since 1972 and over that time I have seen great teams and really bad teams. It is not so hard to tell the difference between these two extremes. I also got to watch Corey Potter play a much greater role than anyone would ever imagine, so I have no problem with the Oilers bringing someone in to improve the defense. But let's be honest here, the case you have made in this thread is extremely weak.

You began with a claim that Franson was the best player in the OP's deal suggesting that:



Of course you noted that he did not do so on the Leafs and took time to explain that this was due to the Leafs significant depth which included such legit top 4 guys as Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Liles, Komisarek, & Schenn. Of course only the first three are actually top four defensemen at this point, and beyond that at 25 Franson has never been close to being a 20 minute defenseman.

Eventually you admitted that he would be a third pairing guy on either the Leafs or the Oilers, and that the Oilers would not deal a prospect like Paajarvi for him. It is pretty tough for a third pairing dman who does not pk to get 20 minutes a night unless he gets a ton of pp time. So the next claim is that he would for sure play on the Oilers pp and would be able to make the team better because of his presence. When presented with evidence of why this would likely not be the case, your retort was that someone who did not see a role for Franson on one of the top pp's in the NHL was simply content with losing.

Of course there is still the issue that Franson has never had much impact on any team's pp. In his three NHL seasons he has 6,6 and 7 points on the pp. (In contrast the legendary Corey Potter had 12 points last year on the pp.) So at best Franson has been the 4th banana playing about 20 seconds per power play on two teams that both run two dmen as key components on each of their pp units, something the Oilers do not do because of the quality of their forwards.

At this point I'm am not seeing the compelling case for Franson on the Oilers pp.

So here we are:



You say this as if we are to take it to be a fact yet in all honesty I am still waiting for the multitude of reasons why Franson would have anything more than a very marginal impact on the Oilers abilitry to win hockey games. In fact to make your claim that he would be a top six defenseman and one of their top three ofeensive dmen accurate it is certainly the case that at the very least he would have to be better than Justin Schultz who is probably the current favourite for the third pairing RHD.

The truth is that neither of us knows how Shcultz will do in his first year. But what we do know is that Gardiner quite easily displaced Franson as a rookie just as Jonathan Blum did the year before. Now no one is going to say for sure that Schultz will have the type of season that Gardiner had, but up until last year Schultz was considered the better player, even by their college coach, with a definite edge on the offensive side. We also know that the plan is to give Shultz the chance to prove what he has. So maybe Franson is not so obviously going to play in the Oilers top 6.

At this point your best hope is that Schultz struggles and that Franson can be compared to guys like Peckham, Teubert and Potter. At this stage he is better than all three. But Peckham is actually a pretty valuable pk'er, something that is much more important for the Oilers success than anything that Franson brings to the table. He also adds a level of toughness that the team lacks. So while Franson is a better hockey player than Peckham, it is not at all clear that he brings more of what the team actually needs to the table then Peckham.

Finally, I'll point out that the Oilers traded Gilbert, a much better offensive dman than Franson, for the stay at home Schultz. This was before they signed J. Schultz. This shows that they are not so fixated on PMD's. They also have the Kurtis Foster experiment fresh in their mind, so a one dimensional offensive dman on the thr=ird pairing is something OIler fans know a lot about.
**** man, nice post. You a lawyer or something?

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Old
09-01-2012, 06:22 PM
  #112
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I was sad when this guy started getting his argument pwned because I knew he would never come back. Too bad it was an entertaining "debate" even if it was very one-sided lol

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Old
09-01-2012, 07:59 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weak5holeguy View Post
To Edm:
Joe Colborne,Cody Franson

To Tor:
Magnus Paajarvi,Colten Teubert, 3rd
I rather have the Leafs keep Franson and I not ready to give up on Colborne.

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Old
09-01-2012, 08:23 PM
  #114
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He's better then Petry, The jury is still out on J.Schultz too. J.Schultz is easily the most overrated prospect on this board, Hasn't played a game in the AHL yet, Let alone NHL.
He is not better than Petry, not even close. As for J Schultz, nobody knows for sure, but he was widely considered the better of the 2 defenceman when he played with Gardiner.

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09-01-2012, 09:57 PM
  #115
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i see most oilers fans saying no and thats perfectly normal for a trade like this but i would really like to know what the incentive for the leafs is? Cody franson is taking alot of slack in this thread and joe colborne is a unique talent that we need in our system. I watch alot of AHL hockey and see no need for colton tuebert and even though i like paajarvi i like joe colborne more

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09-01-2012, 11:03 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Jamin View Post
I love failed logic. Because Edmonton has the worst top 6 wingers in the league.

Not a center so he has to beat out Hall, Eberle, Hemsky and Smyth (fan favorite just traded himself to the team).

Yea what a bum couldnt get passed that competition compared to Franson who couldnt beat out Komisarek and the rest of the leafs D even if it was 2nd worst in the league
How does he beat out Kessel, Lupul, MacArthur,Jvr, Kulemin?

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09-02-2012, 12:33 AM
  #117
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How does he beat out Kessel, Lupul, MacArthur,Jvr, Kulemin?
It'd be tough next year, but it'd definitely be easier than cracking the Oilers top 6 and as long as he can play like he did at the end of last year and continues to develop, he definitely could in future

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09-02-2012, 09:00 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
He'd be one of their 6 best defencemen and top 3 offensive defencemen. It really is that simple... you can look for a multitude of specific reasons why you don't want him, and I could look for a multitude of specific reasons why you do want. At the end of the day, it's all ####. You get better by getting better players. Franson is a better player than what the Oilers have.
Your reasons are anything but specific. I see nothing to back up your claims short of "cuz I said so.". The only guy I see Franson as an upgrade over are Peckham and Potter, so basically our 7 and 8 guys. J Schultz and Sutton (likely our bottom pairing) would be basically on par with a player like Franson, except one is a 22yr old rook who needs playing time and the other is a stay at home seasoned vet with toughness who is the perfect compliment to a young, offence first rookie Dman. So in theory, Franson is likely good enough to be a 5/6 guy on our team, but not really an upgrade over the two aforementioned, nor would it make sense to play him ahead of those guys.

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09-02-2012, 12:43 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by weak5holeguy View Post
To Edm:
Joe Colborne,Cody Franson

To Tor:
Magnus Paajarvi,Colten Teubert, 3rd
Leafs -NO-
Oilers -no-

Big no from Leafs, little no from Oilers.

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09-02-2012, 05:27 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by SuperJayMann View Post
Leafs -NO-
Oilers -no-

Big no from Leafs, little no from Oilers.
Except it's been a resounding NO from Edmonton fans as well as fans if other teams who follow prospects and can rationally look at a teams structure.

Meanwhile some Leaf fans have been trying to rationalize why Edmonton would do the trade despite it being the exact opposite direction we should go.

Neither team does it, but it's at the very least a deal Edmonton would despise every bit as much as Toronto.

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09-02-2012, 05:46 PM
  #121
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As it has been stated, EDM needs to improve their dmen but Franson is redundent on our team, we need a big shut down dman that can play PK and will be able to play in the top 4 when one of our top 4 dmen go down.

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09-02-2012, 06:03 PM
  #122
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Id do this rather easily as a Leaf fan so ii guess the Leafs would need to add. Not really high on either Franson nor Colborne and see them as expenedable pieces.

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09-02-2012, 06:27 PM
  #123
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How does he beat out Kessel, Lupul, MacArthur,Jvr, Kulemin?
he doesnt because he isnt being traded for Cody Franson so its a non-starter

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09-02-2012, 08:14 PM
  #124
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The Leafs shouldn't do this simply because Colborne is the only Leafs center who has any size. I like both Teubert and MPS as prospects and I think the Oilers patients with developing these two will pay off in the long run but until the Leafs can find some size down the middle, Colborne should be held on to by the Leafs.

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09-02-2012, 08:15 PM
  #125
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Cody Franson isn't being held back by a coaching staff. He simply isn't a good hockey player. He's never been a minute muncher, not even for the Leafs or the Preds. Asking for him to be one right now is pretty much equivalent to asking Paajarvi play a top 6 scoring role.

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