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Old
09-02-2012, 03:26 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
...DD gets traded for what?

And Gally is certainly NOT a 1st C. Yet.

Pleks might be gone before DD based on salary. But DD might be gone before Pleks due to contract being up sooner.

Besides, I think there are things Bergy won't do, and trade DD are exactly one of them. DD is a guy that has the potential to be an extremely efficient, low-maintenance scoring forward. Not a perfect player at all, and best prospect is to use him a bit like Brière. But, last time I checked, the Habs cannot exactly afford to get rid of a 60 pt player.
simply put , we have legit #1 after this season THAT WE HAVE BEEN CRAVING FOR 20 YEARS

once ready he takes a back seat to no one

nothing against the mdiget , but I am here to compete for a cup , not a popularity contest hab fans

DD, Grabovsky , Hudler types win you nothing if they are core players

No team has had these guys in their top 6 and won a cup

WTF is the point of paying him 4 mil when we already have stupid contracts on our books ?

Pleks overall is a better player , he can play both ends of the rink , the midget is a pp specialist , has no size , and cant play d

Worst case Pleks is your #1 and Galchenyuk can be your #2 til he is ready to take over . Eller is your three for now

lets not waste another bad contract on this guy , then regret it later

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09-02-2012, 03:51 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
simply put , we have legit #1 after this season THAT WE HAVE BEEN CRAVING FOR 20 YEARS

once ready he takes a back seat to no one

nothing against the mdiget , but I am here to compete for a cup , not a popularity contest hab fans

DD, Grabovsky , Hudler types win you nothing if they are core players

No team has had these guys in their top 6 and won a cup

WTF is the point of paying him 4 mil when we already have stupid contracts on our books ?

Pleks overall is a better player , he can play both ends of the rink , the midget is a pp specialist , has no size , and cant play d

Worst case Pleks is your #1 and Galchenyuk can be your #2 til he is ready to take over . Eller is your three for now

lets not waste another bad contract on this guy , then regret it later
Really? Cause it kind of seems like you have an axe to grind calling him things like that.

He might be small, but he scored forty of his sixty points at even strength, twentieth center in the league in that category so I think it's fair to say he's more than a powerplay specialist. To put it in perspective, the year that Plekanec had seventy points, playing with Kovalev and Kostitsyn, he had only forty one points at even strength. That's good production.

And since when does a three and a half million dollar contract break a team anyway? Worst case scenario we just move him or someone else to the wing.

There's no reason why we can't keep Galchenyuk, Plekanec, and Desharnais. He's too valuable to this team. Cole's production only started taking off last year when he was centered by Desharnais. Pacioretty called him the best center he's ever played with. Showing Desharnais the door now would be among the dumbest things this team has done in the last five years.

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09-02-2012, 04:27 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Andros777 View Post

There's no reason why we can't keep Galchenyuk, Plekanec, and Desharnais. He's too valuable to this team. Cole's production only started taking off last year when he was centered by Desharnais. Pacioretty called him the best center he's ever played with. Showing Desharnais the door now would be among the dumbest things this team has done in the last five years.
That's cause he hasn't played with Galchenyuk yet.

Galchenyuk >>>> Desharnais

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09-02-2012, 04:29 PM
  #404
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That's cause he hasn't played with Galchenyuk yet.

Galchenyuk >>>> Desharnais
Oh really? Just like Galchenyuk projects to be the best C MTL has had since Turgeon?

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09-02-2012, 04:37 PM
  #405
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Oh really? Just like Galchenyuk projects to be the best C MTL has had since Beliveau?
Fixed.

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09-02-2012, 04:58 PM
  #406
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If not injured Galchenyuk would probably have fallen at the same spot Grigorenko was drafted.

The guy is one year late in is development and he is supposed to be better that a 60 points nhler

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09-02-2012, 05:15 PM
  #407
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That's cause he hasn't played with Galchenyuk yet.

Galchenyuk >>>> Desharnais
And we couldn't have more than one good center now could we...

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09-02-2012, 06:00 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
No team has had these guys in their top 6 and won a cup
Funny you mentionned Jiri Hudler, he did win a cup. He never scored as many points as Desharnais but he has been a useful player for the Wings for many years and part of their core. Deny all you want, but he's a top6 producer for them.

Desharnais is better than most cup winning team's top6 players. GOD FORBID we have more than one good forward, you'd think depth is a bad thing. I'm sure unused cap space is going to win us cups.

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Originally Posted by Andros777
And we couldn't have more than one good center now could we...
Its not just about center. Remember Koivu/kovalev, its well known the Habs locker room can only accomodate one decent player. All others must be scrub.

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Originally Posted by durojean
The guy is one year late in is development and he is supposed to be better that a 60 points nhler
The point being? Galchenyuk is going to be first line center and nobody is saying Desharnais is going to be first line center forever. Should the Pens have traded Malkin because Crosby is better?


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09-02-2012, 06:54 PM
  #409
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If not injured Galchenyuk would probably have fallen at the same spot Grigorenko was drafted.
Well as long as we're dwelling into the ream of the unknown, besides you know trusting Timmins as one of if not the best scout in the league, why couldn't he have been unavailable to us as in gone first or second overall? We've had hints of this in the many pre-draft articles that came out, actually.

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09-02-2012, 09:13 PM
  #410
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So it has turned into Desharnais vs Galchenyuk now? Great.

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09-02-2012, 09:41 PM
  #411
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Ain't there rules against thread hijacking ? It's about Desharnais's next contract damnit, and as far as I know, he was our most productive center last season, and we NEED production. I remember, in the mid nineties, some productive players were traded so that another, younger one would have the room needed for his development... yup, let's do it again !

People think that he wouldn't deserve a big raise, even if he was as or more productive as this season, need to get their heads out of their ass...

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09-02-2012, 10:00 PM
  #412
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So it has turned into Desharnais vs Galchenyuk now? Great.
False dichotomy, the master argument when you irrationally hate a player.

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09-02-2012, 10:10 PM
  #413
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I trust Timmins but the fact is we abd he really don't know about Galchenyuk. He was playing with Yakupov who was a really touted prospect since forever.

Plus it's easy to show a hugh compete level for 15 games after missing playing the sport you love for a year but we really don't know jow he'll fare on a 82 game season. We don't know is consistency.

I like him a lot and we should give him all the opportunities possible and the ice time needed to show ourself that he can and he is our future 1st line center. Plus I'm ready to give him at least 6 year to establish himself with ups and down. He is without a doubt our best prospect.

But he was still a very risky pick and the way some of you are building him. It's a lot of pressure for the kid.

Desharnais is a good playing that is adapting to the nhl pretty well. As long as we could but him with offensive player I think he's going to produce. Be it at wing or at center he is a player I want to keep in the futur.

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09-02-2012, 10:20 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
False dichotomy, the master argument when you irrationally hate a player.
No, this thread is about Desharnais' next contract, which kicks in for the 2013-2014 season, when I and many other fans expect Galchenyuk to be the 3rd line center.

That changes how the team is structured. You can legitimately argue that Desharnais should still be the 1st line center, but you can't argue it's obvious.

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09-02-2012, 10:21 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by durojean View Post
If not injured Galchenyuk would probably have fallen at the same spot Grigorenko was drafted.

The guy is one year late in is development and he is supposed to be better that a 60 points nhler
I rather think he could have gone 1st overall.. Unlike Grigorenko, his work ethic isnt an issue..

Desharnais got 60 pts playing first line, 1st PP minutes centering perfect linemates for him, 2 big fast and skilled guys that create alot of room everywhere on the ice.. While thats still very good and unexpected from this little guy, Im pretty sure Plekanec could have done just as good if not better being put in the same situation and this line would have been even better all around.. One could also dream of a Cole Eller Pac line, that Im pretty sure would be awesome to watch, 3 big guys playing a power game, potential steamroller of a line.. Its not all about pts here, more about potential and making your roster better.. Im not sure DD is a very versatile player either, not sure at all he could do the dirty work Eller does on a third line or could be moved to the wings easily.. I think Desharnais needs to be surrouded properly to succeed and at some point, Therrien could be tempted to split the first line , what wouldnt be a good news for DD..

I dont pretend to read in a crystal ball, but a Galchenyuk Plekanec Eller center line looks way more sexy than any other center lines involving Desharnais in lets say 2 years from now..


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09-02-2012, 10:36 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
I rather think he could have gone 1st overall.. Unlike Grigorenko, his work ethic isnt an issue..

Desharnais got 60 pts playing first line, 1st PP minutes centering perfect linemates for him, 2 big fast and skilled guys that create alot of room everywhere on the ice.. While thats still very good and unexpected from this little guy, Im pretty sure Plekanec could have done just as good if not better being put in the same situation and this line would have been even better all around.. One could also dream of a Cole Eller Pac line, that Im pretty sure would be awesome to watch, 3 big guys playing a power game, potential steamroller of a line.. Its not all about pts here, more about potential and making your roster better.. Im not sure DD is a very versatile player either, not sure at all he could do the dirty work Eller does on a third line or could be moved to the wings easily.. I think Desharnais needs to be surrouded properly to succeed and at some point, Therrien could be tempted to split the first line , what wouldnt be a good news for DD..
The important question to ask is how good does Desharnais need to be to justify having the team be structured around his needs?

Henrik Sedin gets that in Vancouver, but he scores 90 points a year, which justifies it as per the Canucks being built around Sedin and being the 2nd best team in the Western Conference.

I don't see Desharnais becoming a 90 point center. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I think his future on the team, if he has one, is as a top-6 winger. You can afford to have two short guys in the top-6, so that's probably Desharnais and Gionta today; and possibly Desharnais and Gallagher tomorrow.

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09-03-2012, 12:22 AM
  #417
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The important question to ask is how good does Desharnais need to be to justify having the team be structured around his needs?

Henrik Sedin gets that in Vancouver, but he scores 90 points a year, which justifies it as per the Canucks being built around Sedin and being the 2nd best team in the Western Conference.

I don't see Desharnais becoming a 90 point center. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I think his future on the team, if he has one, is as a top-6 winger. You can afford to have two short guys in the top-6, so that's probably Desharnais and Gionta today; and possibly Desharnais and Gallagher tomorrow.
Henrik already scored 112 pts despite his brother missed about 20 games.. We are certainly not talking about the same talent level.. Henrik has not only elite vision, his puck skills are sick.. He can make plays out of nothing, doesnt need alot of room to kill you.. Im sorry but outside the fact he sees the ice extremmely well, I dont see anything special in Desharnais, the kid is 5"6, isnt an explosive skater, has a weak shot and has average puck skills, still I think he benefited alot of playing with 2 big guys skating like the wind and playing a power game.. They are creating alot of room to let Desharnais the time to set up his plays, I think his weakness would stand out way more with different linemates..

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09-03-2012, 12:31 AM
  #418
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DD's shot is underated.

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09-03-2012, 05:19 AM
  #419
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Oh really? Just like Galchenyuk projects to be the best C MTL has had since Elvis Grattton?
yeah... at this point, galchenyuk is as unproven as they come. let's not anoint him as he messiah before his time

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09-03-2012, 05:33 AM
  #420
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I don't see Desharnais becoming a 90 point center. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I think his future on the team, if he has one, is as a top-6 winger. You can afford to have two short guys in the top-6, so that's probably Desharnais and Gionta today; and possibly Desharnais and Gallagher tomorrow.
agree with everything and especially the bolded. there is no need to address the Desharnais situation now. no reason whatsoever. my own personal prediction is that he will eventually settle as eller's winger, but what do i know...

a hundred things could go right, could go wrong before we even have to address his situation. galchenyuk busting/dazzling, eller sucking/thriving, plekanec traded and finishes his career here. and that's just at center, you can still move one of eller (not a fan of that idea) or desharnais to wing without having to trade anyone...

as dirty as i feel typing this: we are fine at center right now, and in the future; but we need good wingers like a coed needs a plan B

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion
The important question to ask is how good does Desharnais need to be to justify having the team be structured around his needs?
i don't get that argument... why do we even have to structure the team around him? you could have him center any line (other than the fourth and even then) and he'd still find ways to be effective. or like you said, move him to wing. i find this line of argument to be a red herring. still no need to make a decision until at least the trade deadline. keep evaluating him until then.

i am more than certain that he will turn into a very special player. i could be wrong, but let's not haste to make a decision on his future yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by FF de Mars
DD's shot is underated.
yes it is. i suspect he is going to do what he has seemingly always done, add tools to his toolbox, take more chances as he gains experience. my suspicion is that we are going to see him shoot a lot more this year

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09-03-2012, 08:10 AM
  #421
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i don't get that argument... why do we even have to structure the team around him? you could have him center any line (other than the fourth and even then) and he'd still find ways to be effective. or like you said, move him to wing. i find this line of argument to be a red herring. still no need to make a decision until at least the trade deadline. keep evaluating him until then.

i am more than certain that he will turn into a very special player. i could be wrong, but let's not haste to make a decision on his future yet
If we give DD the two largest and best wingers on the team, 3 minutes a game of PP time, tons of ozone starts, and privileged opposition when getting the opportunity to do so at home, then we are structuring the team around.

*****************

Nobody's hasting to make a decision though. There is no need to move the centers around until Galchenyuk joins the team.

Whereas I am criticial of structuring the team around Desharnais, I do want the team structured around Galchenyuk when he gets here because he has the talent to maybe become Henrik Sedin. That means he's 3rd line center in 2013-2014, including a decent sampling of easy minutes in the Ozone and PP time, and then possibly 1st line center in 2014-2015.

It's legitimate to argue that with that contraint on your lineup you'd benefit more by keeping Eller and Plekanec.

Further, if there's a season, we are extremely likely to draft in the top-5 again, and then we have good odds to draft another offensive center with a talent level comparable to Galchenyuk. I'd say that overall there's a 50% chance of getting a second Galchenyuk in the system, but only if there's a season and not a 2005-style lottery. At that point there will be an even bigger logjam.


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09-03-2012, 08:49 AM
  #422
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
If we give DD the two largest and best wingers on the team, 3 minutes a game of PP time, tons of ozone starts, and privileged opposition when getting the opportunity to do so at home, then we are structuring the team around.
this might all be semantics, i understand what you're saying, but i still don't think that it's "structuring the team around Desharnais".

the way i see it, desharnais' wingers were 13 and 18 in goal scored for the entire league. could they have scored just as much with tougher opposition? could plekanec fed them well enough to allow them to score that many goals? would desharnais still have 60 points without these two?

who knows... to all questions, my suspicion is most likely not. would the team have performed better? maybe, i don't know... what killed the team was the shootout and third period cluster****s. i fail to see how desharnais was responsible for either and he's one of our better shootout player so

and i know you know this, but the sedins are also sheltered in the same way desharnais was last year. i am not comparing whichever sedin plays center to desharnais, far from it. but if you have a selke-type of center (kesler/plekanec), it's better to give the more offensive player the soft, offensive minute, and give the other center the tough minutes. maximizing goals for, minimizing goal against.

ideally, you want a center that can take the tough minute, and rip his opposition - those guys are rare... hopefully, galchenyuk will be that guy, but in the meantime, i see no problem in sheltering DD and letting plekanec handle the tough minutes. but that man needs wingers though. seriously...

aaaaanyways. centering the team around him? no. but that doesn't mean he can't play an important role for the habs in the future - as center, on wing, centering the first or third line...

edit: my post is all over the place

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09-03-2012, 08:52 AM
  #423
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I assume he might do what Pacs did and take a discount. His favourite team, gave him a shot, a player he has great chemistry with, close to home and stability. Not having to change cities. Doubt it's 2 mill a season, but it will be a steal.

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09-03-2012, 09:03 AM
  #424
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
this might all be semantics, i understand what you're saying, but i still don't think that it's "structuring the team around Desharnais".

the way i see it, desharnais' wingers were 13 and 18 in goal scored for the entire league. could they have scored just as much with tougher opposition? could plekanec fed them well enough to allow them to score that many goals? would desharnais still have 60 points without these two?

who knows... to all questions, my suspicion is most likely not. would the team have performed better? maybe, i don't know... what killed the team was the shootout and third period cluster****s. i fail to see how desharnais was responsible for either and he's one of our better shootout player so

and i know you know this, but the sedins are also sheltered in the same way desharnais was last year. i am not comparing whichever sedin plays center to desharnais, far from it. but if you have a selke-type of center (kesler/plekanec), it's better to give the more offensive player the soft, offensive minute, and give the other center the tough minutes. maximizing goals for, minimizing goal against.

ideally, you want a center that can take the tough minute, and rip his opposition - those guys are rare... hopefully, galchenyuk will be that guy, but in the meantime, i see no problem in sheltering DD and letting plekanec handle the tough minutes. but that man needs wingers though. seriously...

aaaaanyways. centering the team around him? no. but that doesn't mean he can't play an important role for the habs in the future - as center, on wing, centering the first or third line...

edit: my post is all over the place
21 year-old Max Pacioretty scored 14 goals in 37 games, equivalent to a 31 goal pace, with Scott Gomez and Brian Gionta in 2010-2011. This year, 22 year-old Max Pacioretty scored 33 goals in 79 games, a 34 goal pace, with David Desharnais and Erik Cole. There's really no evidence that Desharnais made him better. His goal pace improved marginally, but he went from age 21 to age 22, and the goal paces agree within the margin of error anyway.

Plekanec managed to get 52 points, a meager 8 less than Desharnais, playing with a panoply of wingers, against the toughest opposition in the league, with a ton of defensive zone starts and dealing with the fatigue of 3 minutes a game of PK time. Towards the end of the season we were seeing a line of Staubitz-Plekanec-White: the contrast was between Desharnais playing with the two best wingers who are 1st liners on most NHL teams, and Plekanec playing with the two worst wingers on the team, guys who wouldn't make most 4th lines throughout the NHL.

Given these factors, it is clear that Plekanec is at this time a vastly more effective offensive center than Desharnais. Given Plekanec's role last year and the fact he played the toughest minutes on the team in terms of opposition, wingers, etc, there is no doubt that his production was spectacular.

***************

I know that the Sedins are sheltered. I brought that up. When they're sheltered, Henrik Sedin produces 90 points a season, not 60 points, and thus sheltering them is worth the cascade of decreased production it causes everywhere else in the lineup.

The way I see it, there are three roads forward with Desharnais:

1) Give him the same spot as last year and hope he becomes Henrik Sedin or Claude Giroux. If this happens he is worth structuring the team (ok, the offense) around.
2) Give him the same spot as last year, and then sell him at the deadline, so that the Habs can sell high for once. We can ride Plekanec-Eller-Galchenyuk down the middle in 2013-2014, the point from which surgical tanking will be over.
3) Transition Desharnais to wing at some point next year. Hope that Desharnais can become a poor man's version of St-Louis and that Galchenyuk can become a rich man's version of Lecavalier.

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09-03-2012, 09:06 AM
  #425
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Hopefully some more wingers will develop and this argument will be moot anyway.

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