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Old
09-02-2012, 01:23 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
I think I have only seen one or two rankings in the past couple years that have the Wings in the bottom half of the league, as far as prospects. Nearly all have them in the top half, and most have them in the top-10. Many posters claim we have a crappy farm system (and also call themselves "realists," lol), but I think the Wings have a pretty respectable prospect pool, especially considering the position they typically draft from.
Name them.

In all the prospect ranking threads, people seem to be in agreement that the Wings prospect is deep as ever.
Where we disagree is the level of elite prospects we have.

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09-02-2012, 03:36 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Z40 View Post
I don't know how you can say Kronwall hasn't become the #1 we hoped for when he hasn't even had the chance to be a #1 yet.
the question is not will he be the #1 in our team. he is that now. the question is will he be a #1 calibre defender with overwhelming presense. i dont see this.
same question for our top 6 guys. just beeing in our top 6 doesnt mean you are a top 6 elite scorer. best example cleary and bertuzzi.

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09-02-2012, 04:13 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by fimoknete View Post
the question is not will he be the #1 in our team. he is that now. the question is will he be a #1 calibre defender with overwhelming presense. i dont see this.
same question for our top 6 guys. just beeing in our top 6 doesnt mean you are a top 6 elite scorer. best example cleary and bertuzzi.
Our top 6 has 4 locks - Pav, Z, Filp, and Franzen. Yeah, we dont have the deepest top 6 in the league but we have a hell of a lot of guys to round out those top 2 lines depending on who's hot, who's healthy, and who develops fastest.

Bertuzzi, Cleary, Sammy, Nyquist, Brunner, and even Tatar are all guys that are capable of being top 6 forwards. All we need is 2 of them at any given time to be performing at that level. If we avoid a rash of big injuries this year our "top 9" could be one of the best 3 lined scoring threats in the West this year IMO.

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09-02-2012, 04:22 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by jroc86 View Post
Our top 6 has 4 locks - Pav, Z, Filp, and Franzen. Yeah, we dont have the deepest top 6 in the league but we have a hell of a lot of guys to round out those top 2 lines depending on who's hot, who's healthy, and who develops fastest.

Bertuzzi, Cleary, Sammy, Nyquist, Brunner, and even Tatar are all guys that are capable of being top 6 forwards. All we need is 2 of them at any given time to be performing at that level. If we avoid a rash of big injuries this year our "top 9" could be one of the best 3 lined scoring threats in the West this year IMO.
I believe Helm is our third line center. So I disagree. Helm's line won't be a major scoring threat.

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09-02-2012, 09:02 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I believe Helm is our third line center. So I disagree. Helm's line won't be a major scoring threat.
Franzen Datsyuk Brunner
Filpula Zetterberg Samulsen
Nyquist Helm Bertuzzi/Cleary
... I "could" see a line like this being more offensivley potent than most. What does Van, San Jose, Chicago have thats better for a 3rd line?

I dont want to see Helm try and become a sniper at the expense of his defense taking a dive - but at the same time I think hes a player capable of upping the ante offensively and if he has more skill on his wings its definitely possible.

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09-02-2012, 09:22 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by jroc86 View Post
I dont want to see Helm try and become a sniper at the expense of his defense taking a dive - but at the same time I think hes a player capable of upping the ante offensively and if he has more skill on his wings its definitely possible.
You can't simply "become" a sniper. If you watch Darren Helm play you cannot tell me he has the natural ability to become a sniper, I'm sorry. The guy has a very average shot, if not below average. He shot 7% and 6% the last two seasons. When he gets space and fires a shot he very rarely beats a goalie.

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09-02-2012, 09:38 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by jroc86 View Post
Franzen Datsyuk Brunner
Filpula Zetterberg Samulsen
Nyquist Helm Bertuzzi/Cleary
... I "could" see a line like this being more offensivley potent than most. What does Van, San Jose, Chicago have thats better for a 3rd line?

I dont want to see Helm try and become a sniper at the expense of his defense taking a dive - but at the same time I think hes a player capable of upping the ante offensively and if he has more skill on his wings its definitely possible.

If I remember right, Helm and Bertuzzi were on the same line early last season and the line SUCKED. To the point where Bertuzzi was benched because of an "injury"
He came back and played on line 1 with datsyuk and saved his season.

I don't believe a Nyquist-Helm-Bertuzzi or Cleary line will be be very effective.
I think Helm-Cleary can be effective with another dump/chase and crash/bang winger. But I still don't see it as an offensive line.

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09-02-2012, 09:53 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
You can't simply "become" a sniper. If you watch Darren Helm play you cannot tell me he has the natural ability to become a sniper, I'm sorry. The guy has a very average shot, if not below average. He shot 7% and 6% the last two seasons. When he gets space and fires a shot he very rarely beats a goalie.
lol bro ... Im well aware of that he cant literally become a sniper. I played hockey my entire life right up till junior and definitley wasn't a "sniper" and that wasnt by my own choice haha. What I was implying was that although Helm will always be a responsible defence first player I think he's capable of producing more offensively as he enters his prime years and continues to build confidence and poise with the puck.

Bert and Cleary originally started with Adbelakder and Helm started with Miller and Eaves. When Bert missed a bunch of games with a sinus/inner ear infection (or a mild concussion/broken nose from Setoguchi tamahawking his face) then Babcock put Bert with Franzen and Pav and that line ran show until Pavel got surgery.

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09-02-2012, 09:56 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by jroc86 View Post
lol bro ... Im well aware of that he cant literally become a sniper. I played hockey my entire life right up till junior and definitley wasn't a "sniper" and that wasnt by my own choice haha. What I was implying was that although Helm will always be a responsible defence first player I think he's capable of producing more offensively as he enters his prime years and continues to build confidence and poise with the puck.

Bert and Cleary originally started with Adbelakder and Helm started with Miller and Eaves. When Bert missed a bunch of games with a sinus/inner ear infection (or a mild concussion/broken nose from Setoguchi tamahawking his face) then Babcock put Bert with Franzen and Pav and that line ran show until Pavel got surgery.
I see what you are saying, I guess I just disagree with the thinking that Helm has untapped offensive potential, or hidden offensive ability, I just don't see it when I watch the guy, and I don't think he will improve that much in that regard. A lot of posters on here seem to think that, which is fine, I just don't see it.

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09-02-2012, 11:57 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by jroc86 View Post
lol bro ... Im well aware of that he cant literally become a sniper. I played hockey my entire life right up till junior and definitley wasn't a "sniper" and that wasnt by my own choice haha. What I was implying was that although Helm will always be a responsible defence first player I think he's capable of producing more offensively as he enters his prime years and continues to build confidence and poise with the puck.

Bert and Cleary originally started with Adbelakder and Helm started with Miller and Eaves. When Bert missed a bunch of games with a sinus/inner ear infection (or a mild concussion/broken nose from Setoguchi tamahawking his face) then Babcock put Bert with Franzen and Pav and that line ran show until Pavel got surgery.
I think you misunderstand Helm's game. Right now, he's not a responsible defense-first player. He's an energy line guy, first and foremost.

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09-03-2012, 12:31 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I think you misunderstand Helm's game. Right now, he's not a responsible defense-first player. He's an energy line guy, first and foremost.
Hes a lightning fast center that never takes a shift off, has unreal speed, competes hard and finishes every check he can ... did I just describe Helm or Kris Draper? Helm value as a defensive center is pretty significant IMO. While he doesn't have the hands/brains/finishing ability of Pav or Z his hockey IQ and positional awareness is a few notches above Abby for sure.

I'm not trying to sell the guy as a potential 60 point scorer - I'm just saying even with the Helmer as our third line center it shouldn't relegate the lines expectations to plumber status. Assuming we don't buy somebody out post CBA or trade them for a dman (and Brunner and Nyquist stick fulltime) odds are Helm should be flanked by a couple wingers who "should" throw up 20ish goals a campaign (Sammy/Bert/Cleary) and his style and tempo he plays with could really be a good fit with a couple older/bigger bodied guys that can hang onto the puck down low and actually have soft mitts.

Given the dismal end to the season, the strikeout of free agency, and the impending lockout I might just be looking at the glass half-full too much haha ... hopefully we actually have some hockey to watch soon to see whether Im right or not haha.

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09-03-2012, 12:34 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
If I remember right, Helm and Bertuzzi were on the same line early last season and the line SUCKED. To the point where Bertuzzi was benched because of an "injury"
He came back and played on line 1 with datsyuk and saved his season.

I don't believe a Nyquist-Helm-Bertuzzi or Cleary line will be be very effective.
I think Helm-Cleary can be effective with another dump/chase and crash/bang winger. But I still don't see it as an offensive line.
It was Abdelkader, helm, Bertuzzi and it was the best line while it lasted. Very energetic, played in the offensive zone most of the time.

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09-03-2012, 12:47 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by sully61 View Post
It was Abdelkader, helm, Bertuzzi and it was the best line while it lasted. Very energetic, played in the offensive zone most of the time.
On November 3
Bertuzzi had 1G and 2A and was -1 in 11 games
Abs 1+1=2 +/- 0
Helm 1+1=2 +3

Bertuzzi was absolutely lost until he got put on Datsyuk's line

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09-03-2012, 12:53 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
On November 3
Bertuzzi had 1G and 2A and was -1 in 11 games
Abs 1+1=2 +/- 0
Helm 1+1=2 +3

Bertuzzi was absolutely lost until he got put on Datsyuk's line
The line played well. They definitely clicked. The points weren't there but that doesn't prove a whole lot

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09-03-2012, 12:56 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by jroc86 View Post
Hes a lightning fast center that never takes a shift off, has unreal speed, competes hard and finishes every check he can ... did I just describe Helm or Kris Draper? Helm value as a defensive center is pretty significant IMO. While he doesn't have the hands/brains/finishing ability of Pav or Z his hockey IQ and positional awareness is a few notches above Abby for sure.
That's great. Except I'm talking about defense. Not energy. And Kris Draper was a very, very good defensive center. Helm needs a ton of work in this area and his defensive awareness is lacking.

Quote:
I'm not trying to sell the guy as a potential 60 point scorer - I'm just saying even with the Helmer as our third line center it shouldn't relegate the lines expectations to plumber status.
That's exactly what it does, which is what makes Helm kind of a quandry. He deserves the minutes he gets. The problem is, if Helm is line 3 and whoever is line 4, you're running two lines of something less than "puck possession."


Quote:
Assuming we don't buy somebody out post CBA or trade them for a dman (and Brunner and Nyquist stick fulltime) odds are Helm should be flanked by a couple wingers who "should" throw up 20ish goals a campaign (Sammy/Bert/Cleary) and his style and tempo he plays with could really be a good fit with a couple older/bigger bodied guys that can hang onto the puck down low and actually have soft mitts.
\

Helm's wingers won't "throw up" 20ish goals unless they are also regulars on the top line PP unit.
As it is, our first and second liners barely cracked 20 goals last year.

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09-03-2012, 12:57 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by sully61 View Post
The line played well. They definitely clicked. The points weren't there but that doesn't prove a whole lot
Maybe early on. But at the time Bertuzzi was out with injuries, many of us thought he was a healthy scratch... He was brutal

The only time i remember a Helm line clicking last year was the Miller-Helm-Cleary line

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