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Old
08-31-2012, 07:21 PM
  #301
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The latest proposal by the NHL was a serious proposal. The NHLPA ignored it and re-presented their original proposal with a few tiny changes
The one that jumped to 50/50 over a few years while slashing HRR?

It seems to me that if they want to get to 50/50, they need to basically accept the more expansive definition of revenue, and live to fight another day on that front. Once they get the splits to 50/50, they aren't likely to go up in future negotiations, and the owners will be in a position to chip away at the pie (if necessary) in the future.

EDIT: My sense was that the NHLPA is willing to negotiate down on either the split or the definition of HRR, but is reluctant to do both, given the scale of the owners' asks. Is that not right?

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08-31-2012, 07:56 PM
  #302
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NHLPA doesn't really want to negotiate down but wants to keep the HRR definition the same as it's been for years

NHL wants to negotiate them to about 50/50 ish and change the HRR to be more restrictive

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08-31-2012, 08:07 PM
  #303
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NHLPA doesn't really want to negotiate down but wants to keep the HRR definition the same as it's been for years

NHL wants to negotiate them to about 50/50 ish and change the HRR to be more restrictive
I don't think that the NHLPA "wants" to move it down, but I think they realize they will need to. I also think that they found the opening offer genuinely insulting--not just hard. The players have a strong claim to the recent growth in the game, so for the owners to essentially try to roll the clock back to the last go-around (I read one breakdown of the combination of the splits + redefinition that allowed for only a very modest growth in the players' total actual pot, which is absurd, considering what has happened in the intervening years. I'll admit, I haven't run the numbers myself, but it seemed plausible).

If the NHL was actually looking for 50/50, starting at, what, 43?--was probably not a very good way to go. Of course you don't open with your bottom line, but trust matters in negotiations.

At some point, the NHLPA will have to be the "bigger" party here--and, ultimately, I think pretty much everyone expects that they will cave significantly.

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09-02-2012, 10:15 PM
  #304
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Now this doesn't actually pertain to the CBA, but with the players coming out and constantly criticizing Bettman on Twitter, doesn't he have grounds to punish them?

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09-03-2012, 12:15 AM
  #305
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It appears your teams own owner as well as Boston's owner Jeremy Jacobs are the two owners who have Bettman's hear and the two owners wanting a work stoppage. Two teams with great history have owners who make billions but want more, and careless about the fans. Incredible! Flyer fans should be putting pressure on Snider.

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09-03-2012, 12:20 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by NickDuck View Post
It appears your teams own owner as well as Boston's owner Jeremy Jacobs are the two owners who have Bettman's hear and the two owners wanting a work stoppage. Two teams with great history have owners who make billions but want more, and careless about the fans. Incredible! Flyer fans should be putting pressure on Snider.
link to this?

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09-03-2012, 12:25 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by NickDuck View Post
It appears your teams own owner as well as Boston's owner Jeremy Jacobs are the two owners who have Bettman's hear and the two owners wanting a work stoppage. Two teams with great history have owners who make billions but want more, and careless about the fans. Incredible! Flyer fans should be putting pressure on Snider.
I don't know about this, but I know Snider is against revenue sharing though. He does not want to pour more money into markets that are not his own. Can't really blame the guy for that.

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09-03-2012, 12:38 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by NickDuck View Post
It appears your teams own owner as well as Boston's owner Jeremy Jacobs are the two owners who have Bettman's hear and the two owners wanting a work stoppage. Two teams with great history have owners who make billions but want more, and careless about the fans. Incredible! Flyer fans should be putting pressure on Snider.
Link?

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09-03-2012, 12:42 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by NickDuck View Post
It appears your teams own owner as well as Boston's owner Jeremy Jacobs are the two owners who have Bettman's hear and the two owners wanting a work stoppage. Two teams with great history have owners who make billions but want more, and careless about the fans. Incredible! Flyer fans should be putting pressure on Snider.
Doubt it.

For one, 2 owners can't force bettman to start a lockout.

Two, whats wrong with both of them not wanting to pay more into revenue sharing?

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09-03-2012, 01:19 AM
  #310
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The owners of Philadelphia and Boston...two organizations who are in contention every year, active in free agency, and incredibly deep...are the ones who don't want to pay players that much money? Did you see how much Snider paid player before the salary cap? That can't be the case at all, I'm calling BS.


I believe it's been said by both sides that revenue sharing isn't NEARLY as big as the media has made it, it's mostly about player salary.

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09-03-2012, 07:55 AM
  #311
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All the NHL needs is some meaningful revenue sharing. It needs to tell Ed Snider to stop behaving like the biggest hog at the trough: Snider’s Flyers tried to wreck the small-market Nashville Predators with an absurd offer to restricted free-agent Shea Weber, which the Predators were forced to match.

But Snider is (with Boston’s Jeremy Jacobs) one of the two greedy, big-market owners who have Bettman’s ear. He’s one of those insisting that the system is broken. If that’s true, guys like Snider broke it. And Craig Leipold of the Minnesota Wild, who whines that the system is broken and the Wild aren’t making money because player salaries are too high. This, of course, was right before Leipold signed Zach Parise and Ryan Suter to ridiculous deals.
This is probably what he's talking about.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...295/story.html



Montreal typical.

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09-03-2012, 08:07 AM
  #312
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the teams that are stuggling, like florida, phoenix, etc, those teams either contract or move to the north.

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09-03-2012, 09:00 AM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickDuck View Post
It appears your teams own owner as well as Boston's owner Jeremy Jacobs are the two owners who have Bettman's hear and the two owners wanting a work stoppage. Two teams with great history have owners who make billions but want more, and careless about the fans. Incredible! Flyer fans should be putting pressure on Snider.
In every negotiation, there are guys on the opposition that get played into the part of being antagonists. This year its Snider and Jacobs.
These two probably are the head of a faction of owners that is playing hard hat over the fact that they want to stop the subsidies for the lower end teams and Bettman is trying to find a way to do that with the CBA.

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09-03-2012, 09:12 AM
  #314
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I don't blame Snider in the slightest if that's what he's doing. The guy was told to get lost in 2004. And if I were him, I wouldn't want to share a single cent with franchises pretty much guaranteed to never make money. I would be shocked if he's not one of the owners who wants to be done with Phoenix. They've already spent money that they won't see again to keep the team going for 3 years now, and this talk of increased revenue sharing, they're going to have to keep giving it to them.

As far as the owners themselves, they did break the system. And any market that can't stay afloat after losing a whole season, I have no interest in keeping them around. Phoenix is the only one where I'd be adamant that needs to be rid of. I haven't seen everything, but Donald Fehr should be using Phoenix hard in the PR. "They want to drain the players out again, but they're inflicting their own wounds by pouring millions of dollars down the drain in Phoenix."


Plus, not that we 'hope there is a lockout,' but I think many of us realize that a shortened season benefits this team. And frankly, it benefits me. Selfishly, I'd love nothing more than to roll over a third of my STH payments. The main reason I'm not really that angry about this. For the team, I wouldn't mind getting to the playoffs with Kimmo Timonen only needing to play 60 games, and Meszaros only missing 40 games.

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09-03-2012, 09:53 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
I don't blame Snider in the slightest if that's what he's doing. The guy was told to get lost in 2004. And if I were him, I wouldn't want to share a single cent with franchises pretty much guaranteed to never make money. I would be shocked if he's not one of the owners who wants to be done with Phoenix. They've already spent money that they won't see again to keep the team going for 3 years now, and this talk of increased revenue sharing, they're going to have to keep giving it to them.

As far as the owners themselves, they did break the system. And any market that can't stay afloat after losing a whole season, I have no interest in keeping them around. Phoenix is the only one where I'd be adamant that needs to be rid of. I haven't seen everything, but Donald Fehr should be using Phoenix hard in the PR. "They want to drain the players out again, but they're inflicting their own wounds by pouring millions of dollars down the drain in Phoenix."


Plus, not that we 'hope there is a lockout,' but I think many of us realize that a shortened season benefits this team. And frankly, it benefits me. Selfishly, I'd love nothing more than to roll over a third of my STH payments. The main reason I'm not really that angry about this. For the team, I wouldn't mind getting to the playoffs with Kimmo Timonen only needing to play 60 games, and Meszaros only missing 40 games.
It must be galling to Ed Snider's Ayn Randian heart to see that the people who make money in the NHL, the Flyers, Rangers, Leafs etc... have very little say in the whole matter at hand. You would think that the successful guys could tell the lesser teams what they were going to accept rather than the other way around.
I would suggest that the NHL call it a day on the Sunbelt USA. It is ridiculous to think that they will succeed here. The Thrashers left here in Atlanta and there is hardly anyone that cares any more. The only way that a team can succeed down in the South - where even NFL football is the number 3 sport behind College Football and High School football is to have dynamic owners. These people don't exist for hockey.
The last time they had a strike I agreed with the owners. But it is their fault that they did not transform their business model and they won't get a governmental bailout. My sympathies are with the players this time.

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09-03-2012, 10:02 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Jumping View Post
It must be galling to Ed Snider's Ayn Randian heart to see that the people who make money in the NHL, the Flyers, Rangers, Leafs etc... have very little say in the whole matter at hand. You would think that the successful guys could tell the lesser teams what they were going to accept rather than the other way around.
I would suggest that the NHL call it a day on the Sunbelt USA. It is ridiculous to think that they will succeed here. The Thrashers left here in Atlanta and there is hardly anyone that cares any more. The only way that a team can succeed down in the South - where even NFL football is the number 3 sport behind College Football and High School football is to have dynamic owners. These people don't exist for hockey.
The last time they had a strike I agreed with the owners. But it is their fault that they did not transform their business model and they won't get a governmental bailout. My sympathies are with the players this time.
I don't agree with completely abandoning the Sunbelt. The existence of teams like the Panthers don't bother me, and I think the Hurricanes have developed a good fan base, even if they're oblivious to how awful their GM is. This is only an estimated guess, but it seems they've been holding better than the Bobcats are, even though they play in two different cities. And those were the two franchises I pegged not to survive after the last lockout. And I have no problem at all with trying to get into Ohio, I mean it's not the south, but people act like 'why do we have a team in Columbus?' I would like to grow the game in the 8th most populous state. Nashville, I think, has also made it.

I think there should be a commitment to growing the game in the south, but there are still markets in the northern US that should still have teams. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd have teams in both Seattle and Portland. And Kansas City has an arena....

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09-03-2012, 10:10 AM
  #317
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I don't agree with completely abandoning the Sunbelt. The existence of teams like the Panthers don't bother me, and I think the Hurricanes have developed a good fan base, even if they're oblivious to how awful their GM is. This is only an estimated guess, but it seems they've been holding better than the Bobcats are, even though they play in two different cities. And those were the two franchises I pegged not to survive after the last lockout. And I have no problem at all with trying to get into Ohio, I mean it's not the south, but people act like 'why do we have a team in Columbus?' I would like to grow the game in the 8th most populous state. Nashville, I think, has also made it.

I think there should be a commitment to growing the game in the south, but there are still markets in the northern US that should still have teams. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd have teams in both Seattle and Portland. And Kansas City has an arena....
It would be wise of the NHL management to note the success of soccer in Seattle and Portland, their rivalries with each other and their splendid fans and move NYI and Phoenix there.

Oops... used wise and NHL management in the same sentance. My bad.

I don't consider the Carolinas or Nashville as Sunbelt states by the way. I mean Florida, Georgia and Phoenix primarily, maybe Texas, but Texas is like a nation of its own. Maybe Florida survives because 1/2 of the state that is not Hispanic comes from Canada, but did anyone have the thought that they moved there because they don't like the cold or hockey?

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09-03-2012, 10:58 AM
  #318
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I'm not ready to move the Islanders yet, although that has more to do with an arena than the fan base.

Phoenix's problems stem from how they were moved there to begin with. People think it's insane than they're there, or still there. Look at how they were moved there. Bettman shows up one day and decides that's where he wants the Jets to go to, without an arena. The Suns moved into their current arena only 3 or 4 years before the Coyotes. You'd think they'd make a configuration for hockey, because presumably the wheels would be in motion longer than that.

Florida I don't take as much issue with, because Miami is a huge pop-culture hub now, and the NHL moved in roughly the same time the Heat and Marlins. They roughly have the same issues the Coyotes did, because Pat Riley didn't want to share an arena with them.

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09-03-2012, 12:41 PM
  #319
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The big money makers should not have to keep the small markets afloat sink or swim cant make it move them some where where they will.

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09-03-2012, 01:00 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
This is probably what he's talking about.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...295/story.html



Montreal typical.
I would never believe anything that comes from a Montreal newspaper when they're talking about any other team besides the Habs

With that being said, I don't blame the owners of big market teams being pissed off that they have to help keep teams like Phoenix and Florida afloat because they cant make money

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09-03-2012, 01:19 PM
  #321
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The big money makers should not have to keep the small markets afloat sink or swim cant make it move them some where where they will.
It's not that simple.

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09-03-2012, 02:00 PM
  #322
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This is probably what he's talking about.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...295/story.html



Montreal typical.
Makes sense, Snider might be doing what Steinbrenner did in baseball CBAs; make noise about a faulty system, and when it doesn't get fixed, completely take advantage of it with seemingly endless finances.

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09-03-2012, 02:11 PM
  #323
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I don't blame Snider in the slightest if that's what he's doing. The guy was told to get lost in 2004. And if I were him, I wouldn't want to share a single cent with franchises pretty much guaranteed to never make money. I would be shocked if he's not one of the owners who wants to be done with Phoenix. They've already spent money that they won't see again to keep the team going for 3 years now, and this talk of increased revenue sharing, they're going to have to keep giving it to them.

As far as the owners themselves, they did break the system. And any market that can't stay afloat after losing a whole season, I have no interest in keeping them around. Phoenix is the only one where I'd be adamant that needs to be rid of. I haven't seen everything, but Donald Fehr should be using Phoenix hard in the PR. "They want to drain the players out again, but they're inflicting their own wounds by pouring millions of dollars down the drain in Phoenix."


Plus, not that we 'hope there is a lockout,' but I think many of us realize that a shortened season benefits this team. And frankly, it benefits me. Selfishly, I'd love nothing more than to roll over a third of my STH payments. The main reason I'm not really that angry about this. For the team, I wouldn't mind getting to the playoffs with Kimmo Timonen only needing to play 60 games, and Meszaros only missing 40 games.
Snider had no problem pocketing their expansion fees so the owners could profit off a larger television contract. The owners created this mess so they have to deal with it.

Snider is a big hypocrite. He is on the side that is claiming the system is broken when no one abused it more than he did. He wants to take the hockey season from us to prevent what he has been doing all along. The only thing the owners proposal does is line his pockets with more money. Meanwhile the Flyers justify increases in ticket prices claiming the costs are rising when they were paying more on player salaries prior to the last lockout than they have been in the last 7 years.

Snider and the other big market owners are the biggest jokers in all of this.

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09-03-2012, 02:29 PM
  #324
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what?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
I don't agree with completely abandoning the Sunbelt. The existence of teams like the Panthers don't bother me, and I think the Hurricanes have developed a good fan base, even if they're oblivious to how awful their GM is. This is only an estimated guess, but it seems they've been holding better than the Bobcats are, even though they play in two different cities. And those were the two franchises I pegged not to survive after the last lockout. And I have no problem at all with trying to get into Ohio, I mean it's not the south, but people act like 'why do we have a team in Columbus?' I would like to grow the game in the 8th most populous state. Nashville, I think, has also made it.

I think there should be a commitment to growing the game in the south, but there are still markets in the northern US that should still have teams. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd have teams in both Seattle and Portland. And Kansas City has an arena....
Jim Rutherford is awful???.. wheres your hockey sense??

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09-03-2012, 02:56 PM
  #325
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Jim Rutherford is awful???.. wheres your hockey sense??
5 playoff appearances in 16 years is not a successful record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
Snider had no problem pocketing their expansion fees so the owners could profit off a larger television contract. The owners created this mess so they have to deal with it.

Snider is a big hypocrite. He is on the side that is claiming the system is broken when no one abused it more than he did. He wants to take the hockey season from us to prevent what he has been doing all along. The only thing the owners proposal does is line his pockets with more money. Meanwhile the Flyers justify increases in ticket prices claiming the costs are rising when they were paying more on player salaries prior to the last lockout than they have been in the last 7 years.

Snider and the other big market owners are the biggest jokers in all of this.
He had no problem pocketing the expansion fees, but I'm sure he'd love to have them still making money after that.

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