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Old
09-02-2012, 08:26 PM
  #76
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What kind of crease-cleaner could we get for Kaberle?

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09-02-2012, 08:34 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Maybe so. And everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion. Yet, if there's a smurf who doesn't play his size, it's him. AND we are talking about a guy, who will most likely not be a gimme top 6 every single night. While Kaberle definately is.
Hmm perhaps you are right but I highly doubt Therrien benches Boullion. I see it as: Markov, Kaberle, Subban, Gorges, Boullion, Emelin/Diaz (alternating based on play).


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09-02-2012, 08:41 PM
  #78
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Kaberle is easily one of the softest def in the league, I fail to see how he is underrated lol

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09-02-2012, 11:39 PM
  #79
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Tomas Kaberle is one of the best assets for the surgical tank.

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09-03-2012, 12:14 AM
  #80
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There's nothing wrong with Tomas Kaberle's contract. $4.25 mil a year is solid. He's put up solid numbers. Kab isn't a tough in your face player. He's a puck moving defenseman. I don't think MT should put him against top players. On the powerplay we need him on the second unit. It makes a huge difference because we have two solid powerplay units (pacorioetty, cole, desharnais) (gionta, plekanec, ?).

Defensemen I would pair up:

1. Subban-Gorges
2. Markov-Emelin
3. Kaberle-Boullion/Diaz/Weber

Personally I dislike Weber, he's had so many chances to prove himself but he's just too weak and too many turnovers.

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09-03-2012, 12:14 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Hmm perhaps you are right but I highly doubt Therrien benches Boullion. I see it as: Markov, Kaberle, Subban, Gorges, Boullion, Emelin/Diaz (alternating based on play).
If Emelin is alternating, I'd be even more pissed than when Martin coached this team. Emelin is not on alternate mode anymore. For me it's Bouillon/Diaz/or a surprise rookie for #6/#7.

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09-03-2012, 12:16 AM
  #82
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Personally I dislike Weber, he's had so many chances to prove himself but he's just too weak and too many turnovers.
We are at the Ben Maxwell type of trade time for Weber. Good luck elsewhere. You deserve a shot. But not with us. But his lack of progression is not solely on him. We tried the best we could to play in his head with all this forward/defense movement with him. And on D, he ends up playing limited minutes. And then we wonder why he fails when he plays more......Like every person, he needed confidence and playing time at his position. Not saying that if we trade him, he's going to be an all-star. Not a fan as well. But he might do better than we think he'll be doing. But it's not the point anymore. We need to find somebody else we can use to get his career going as well.

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09-03-2012, 03:20 AM
  #83
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Thats the point tho still. His only redeeming quality is his supposed PP prowess yet did nothing to improve it. Every team can at least come up with a good five man PP unit. Its about execution. It was bad prior to Kaberle and bad after. In terms of the point of the trade, it was a colossal failure.
This idea that he did nothing to improve the PP is complete and utter crap. I dug up the numbers months ago during another Kaberle bash fest. He played roughly half of Montreal games. In those games the PP was somewhere near 17.5%. In games without Kaberle the PP was 11.6%.

If someone can explain how that is NOT an improvement I would love to hear it. It's not just a minor improvement, it's a gigantic improvement. In fact the PP was 50% more effective with Kaberle than without him.

What is more impressive about those numbers is that, generally speaking, the pre-Kaberle PP featured snipers Cammalleri and Gionta. But the Kaberle PP mostly had neither, as those two guys were replaced by Bourque and nothing. And Kaberle had to deal with Cunneyworth running the show too.

So if anyone wants to bash Kaberle, go ahead, but spare me the insanely wrong notion that he didn't improve the power play. He did. Immensely.

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09-03-2012, 04:44 AM
  #84
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We are at the Ben Maxwell type of trade time for Weber. Good luck elsewhere. You deserve a shot. But not with us. But his lack of progression is not solely on him. We tried the best we could to play in his head with all this forward/defense movement with him. And on D, he ends up playing limited minutes. And then we wonder why he fails when he plays more......Like every person, he needed confidence and playing time at his position. Not saying that if we trade him, he's going to be an all-star. Not a fan as well. But he might do better than we think he'll be doing. But it's not the point anymore. We need to find somebody else we can use to get his career going as well.
Pretty much how I feel (except I'm kind of a "fan", well... at least I'm pulling for him to succeed). I doubt he has a spot on this team anymore, which I think is sad because he really wasn't used properly. He needs a change of scenery that's for sure. There has to be a team out there for that could use him.

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09-03-2012, 07:34 AM
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Less to do with his height than his actual ability. The habs were lacking a guy who could clear the crease. Bouillon can't really do that. He's just a plug we signed. Don't hate it, but I don't expect him to bring any dimension we were lacking in.
I like his tenacity and hard work, but overall, I agree. I do think he provides a missing element though, toughness despite his size, and the willingness to back his team mates and someone who has worked with Therrien, I agree that there were most likely better options.

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09-03-2012, 07:40 AM
  #86
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We are at the Ben Maxwell type of trade time for Weber. Good luck elsewhere. You deserve a shot. But not with us. But his lack of progression is not solely on him. We tried the best we could to play in his head with all this forward/defense movement with him. And on D, he ends up playing limited minutes. And then we wonder why he fails when he plays more......Like every person, he needed confidence and playing time at his position. Not saying that if we trade him, he's going to be an all-star. Not a fan as well. But he might do better than we think he'll be doing. But it's not the point anymore. We need to find somebody else we can use to get his career going as well.

Not that I disagree, but aren't you one of the first to criticize management for giving away young players who go on to be successful elsewhere? Isn't that what this will likely be? His value is bordering on nothing at this point. I would like to squeeze him into the lineup at some point in hopes he'll contribute on the 2nd pp and up his value some.

I would of preferred to suffer the woes of weber than to sign kaberle, who has as many shortcomings in the d-zone. Kabs is superior offensively to this point, but we've kind of positioned ourselves to never know what we've got in weber. Weber is still young, I'd much rather evaluate him on my borderline playoff team then give his minutes to a similar one dimensional player who's career is likely nearly done.

Thoughts?

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09-03-2012, 07:45 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Less to do with his height than his actual ability. The habs were lacking a guy who could clear the crease. Bouillon can't really do that. He's just a plug we signed. Don't hate it, but I don't expect him to bring any dimension we were lacking in.
His height and ability are being questioned, but most people had a problem with Bouillon for the fact that he was a guy they were bringing back from the past, along with Therrien. For some reason, people see it as a step backwards.

It's a smart signing for a 7th d-man. On one hand, he won't play all 82 games but he can still help out guys like Emelin and Diaz. On the other hand, when he does get the chance to play, he's playing under the coaching style of Therrien - someone he is very comfortable with.

Kaberle on the other hand, will be in the top 6 rotation, barring injury, trade or Therrien thinking he's too soffff. Kaberle, although weak defensively, will get his PP time without a doubt. He should be on the third pairing, with Diaz - who will switch with Bouillon at appropriate times - or anybody that is having a bad stretch of games.

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09-03-2012, 08:02 AM
  #88
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Pretty much how I feel (except I'm kind of a "fan", well... at least I'm pulling for him to succeed). I doubt he has a spot on this team anymore, which I think is sad because he really wasn't used properly. He needs a change of scenery that's for sure. There has to be a team out there for that could use him.
Yannick Weber is the 8th dman on the Habs. Given the standard amount of injuries he could play 50 or 60 games this year.

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09-03-2012, 08:12 AM
  #89
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Don't think Kaberle is overrated or underrated. He is what he is - good offensively and abysmal defensively. I would have rathered his money go towards a legit, top 4 d-man thus I never liked the trade. Gauthier tried some patchwork on something he failed to prepare for earlier thus the Habs are strapped with a yuck contract for a player who can't compensate for the likes of a Subban or Markov going down again.

And if Kaberle gets in the way of the youngsters developing I'll be ticked even more. I just couldn't believe how soft he was in his own end.

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09-03-2012, 08:18 AM
  #90
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Not that I disagree, but aren't you one of the first to criticize management for giving away young players who go on to be successful elsewhere? Isn't that what this will likely be? His value is bordering on nothing at this point. I would like to squeeze him into the lineup at some point in hopes he'll contribute on the 2nd pp and up his value some.

I would of preferred to suffer the woes of weber than to sign kaberle, who has as many shortcomings in the d-zone. Kabs is superior offensively to this point, but we've kind of positioned ourselves to never know what we've got in weber. Weber is still young, I'd much rather evaluate him on my borderline playoff team then give his minutes to a similar one dimensional player who's career is likely nearly done.

Thoughts?
I'm TOTALLY amongst the ones who blame management for giving up and playing with kids heads, not giving them enough confidence and all. Which is EXACTLY what I did with my reply. Weber never had a fair shot as far as him getting the confidence and playing time he needed so we'd know FOR SURE what he's made of. So in my reply, I just did criticize them. YET, at some point, for the guy himself, and seeing what we have in our pool, it's time for him to go. Mind you, I will rarely criticize a move if we end up getting something "significant" in return. Now, I know, "significant" for Weber, isn't Claude Giroux. But at least an equal value as far as a prospect who might not have turned out greatly so far but still with potential or a fine pick for next year's draft.

Also, I didn't criticize EVERY management move. Didn't criticze moving Maxwell. Criticize a little the O'Byrne move, yet was really pleased in getting Bournival back. So it's not ALWAYS black or white as this board loves to think it is. So I didn't like how Weber was raised in the organization. That's a gimme. But at one point, you need to come to the conclusion that he's not going to be a top 6 again this year. And that in 2-3 years better prospects are coming. So they might hold to him till the camp and maybe, who knows, he does incredibly well and we either keep him and use him or trade him for a better value he has now. But I just believe that his future is not with us. And while I am a prospect lover...there are prospects I like better than others. Weber is not exactly in my top 10.

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09-03-2012, 08:26 AM
  #91
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This idea that he did nothing to improve the PP is complete and utter crap. I dug up the numbers months ago during another Kaberle bash fest. He played roughly half of Montreal games. In those games the PP was somewhere near 17.5%. In games without Kaberle the PP was 11.6%.

If someone can explain how that is NOT an improvement I would love to hear it. It's not just a minor improvement, it's a gigantic improvement. In fact the PP was 50% more effective with Kaberle than without him.

What is more impressive about those numbers is that, generally speaking, the pre-Kaberle PP featured snipers Cammalleri and Gionta. But the Kaberle PP mostly had neither, as those two guys were replaced by Bourque and nothing. And Kaberle had to deal with Cunneyworth running the show too.

So if anyone wants to bash Kaberle, go ahead, but spare me the insanely wrong notion that he didn't improve the power play. He did. Immensely.
You have a valid point about the improvement of the powerplay with Kaberle. You fail to mention the fact that Desharnais, Pacioretty and Cole were used as the 1st PP unit when he arrived as opposed to Plekanec, Cammalleri and company who were used prior to that point as the people who recieved the bulk of PP time.

The people who use the assinine logic that because we dropped a few spots in overall PP ranking indicated that the PP had actually regressed really need to get their collective heads checked. That stat ONLY shows that the teams that were directly behind us had improved more than we had. 17.5 > 11.6 people........that is a fact that you can't argue.

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09-03-2012, 11:34 AM
  #92
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There's nothing wrong with Tomas Kaberle's contract. $4.25 mil a year is solid. He's put up solid numbers. Kab isn't a tough in your face player. He's a puck moving defenseman. I don't think MT should put him against top players. On the powerplay we need him on the second unit. It makes a huge difference because we have two solid powerplay units (pacorioetty, cole, desharnais) (gionta, plekanec, ?).

Defensemen I would pair up:

1. Subban-Gorges
2. Markov-Emelin
3. Kaberle-Boullion/Diaz/Weber

Personally I dislike Weber, he's had so many chances to prove himself but he's just too weak and too many turnovers.
The thing is both Bouillon and Kaberle can't really play on the right side and Kaberle-Diaz/Weber pairing is way too soft. That's why I don't like having Kaberle on he team. I think I'd rather go with a Bouillon-Diaz pairing.

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09-03-2012, 11:57 AM
  #93
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If Emelin is alternating, I'd be even more pissed than when Martin coached this team. Emelin is not on alternate mode anymore. For me it's Bouillon/Diaz/or a surprise rookie for #6/#7.
Yeah, my belief is that we didnt sign a top 4 D- man and signed a player who would take a one year deal, Cubes, because MB views Emelin as having top 4 potential and this year will give Emelin the opportunity to grow into that top 4 spot. I certainly think Emelin has that potential. Even if im wrong about the plan, or about Emelins potential, he is certainly no worse than a full time top 5-6 D-man.

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09-03-2012, 12:07 PM
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The thing is both Bouillon and Kaberle can't really play on the right side and Kaberle-Diaz/Weber pairing is way too soft. That's why I don't like having Kaberle on he team. I think I'd rather go with a Bouillon-Diaz pairing.
What the pairings look like when everybody is healthy matters for very little.

In 2011-2012, the habs lost Chris Campoli for 31 games, Andrei Markov for 67 games, Jaroslav Spacek for 5 games, Hal Gill for 5 games, Yannick Weber for 11 games, Raphael Diaz for 16 games, Alexei Emelin for 1 game and Tomas Kaberle for 6 games. That's 145 man-games.

I can't find the stats for 2010-2011, but I see that Wisniewski missed 6 games over the season, Subban missed 4 but I think that was a benching, Hamrlik missed 3 games, Spacek missed 22 games, Gill missed 6 games, Gorges missed 46 games, and Andrei Markov missed 75 games, so about 150 man-games, not including what Weber, Picard, Sopel, and Mara may have lost.

For 2009-2010, MAB missed 24 games but he was signed after the start of the season, Markov missed 37 games, Hamrlik missed 7 games, Spacek missed 8 games, Gill missed 14 games, Mara played in 42 games and O'Byrne in 55 games. I'm not sure how many of Mara's and O'Byrne's missed games were benchings. So between 66 and 157 man games lost depending on how you count MAB, O'Byrne, and Mara.

For 2008-09, Markov missed 4 games, Hamrlik missed 1 game, Schneider missed 14 but some of them may have been with Atlanta, Gorges missed 1 game, Brisebois missed 20 but that could have been benchings, Komisarek missed 16 games, Bouillon missed 38 games but that could have been bnchings, O'Byrne missed 45 games but that could have been benchings. Between 80 and 140 man games lost.

******************

So altogether it matters little what your defensecorps look like when everybody is healthy. At any given time you are missing between 1 and 2 of your starting 6 D, so you need to see how resilient the D looks when there are injuries.

What Kaberle does is that he guarantees our offense doesn't decline to zero when one of Markov or Subban are injured. The Habs need to have all three of those players, or else they're playing with fire.

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09-03-2012, 06:55 PM
  #95
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Why would people hate Bouillon when the guy is not even sure to be top 6? Can we say the same for Kaberle?
Cube was top four in even strength minutes on one of the best defensive teams in the league last year. He'll play in the top six, just not on any special teams.

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09-03-2012, 07:54 PM
  #96
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Cube was top four in even strength minutes on one of the best defensive teams in the league last year. He'll play in the top six, just not on any special teams.
That's pretty misleading. The Predators's defense after Weber-Suter was very weak, even more so if we factor in the Vezina candidate behind them. Hal Gill was considered a significant add for them at the deadline for this reason.

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09-03-2012, 08:10 PM
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Bergevin will undoubtedly enjoy what Gauthier has set him up with. 7 picks in the first two rounds of two deep drafts and a solid core of players to build around not to mention our first true powerforward in probably 20 years.

Gauthier made some tough choices that the likes of you and the rest would have villified him for no matter the direction he chose, I think that is pretty apparent.

You go on and on ad nauseum about Kaberle who is the smallest part of the problem, we get it. Apparently Kaberle caused us to lose our first 7 games and pretty much wrote the season off. You are always good for a laugh.

Remember when you were saying "Gauthier will never work in the NHL again!" That is gone eh? Apparently when our PP was awful and Martin was playing gomez instead of Cole all we needed was some "toughness" we just needed to win some fights and like magic our team would know how to get out of it's zone.
Indeed, without Gauthier getting a 3rd overall pick would be tough. Bergevin will undoubtedly enjoy those high picks though, well done Gauthier.

Gauthier is a director of personnel not some assistant GM or head of scouting. If that's some sort of positive what is your opinion of Gainey immediately getting a NHL job as Senior Advisor...same position he held with the Habs?

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09-03-2012, 08:44 PM
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Cube was top four in even strength minutes on one of the best defensive teams in the league last year. He'll play in the top six, just not on any special teams.
We do talk about a 25 seconds difference in average with Josi. And more than Blum who is just 23. But Bouillon won't be playing more than Markov, Subban and Gorges. Remains to see if he'll be playing more than Kaberle. And getting older does not mean getting in better shape. If Emelin still evolves and do well, I wouldn't be surprised to see him playing more than Bouillon.

In the end, as far as the upcoming years are concerned, and I LIKE Bouillon, but if he's in your top 4, you're in trouble.

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09-03-2012, 10:04 PM
  #99
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Kabs makes sense for this team as we will need as much offence from the backend as possible. In Kabs, PK, and Markov we could likely have 3 D with 40+ points this year....

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09-03-2012, 10:09 PM
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Kabs makes sense for this team as we will need as much offence from the backend as possible. In Kabs, PK, and Markov we could likely have 3 D with 40+ points this year....
There's only so many offensive minutes to go around, so it's very hard to have three dmen with 40+ points.

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