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Old
09-03-2012, 09:09 AM
  #426
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Originally Posted by Andros777 View Post
Hopefully some more wingers will develop and this argument will be moot anyway.
That'd be nice. Unfortunately the Habs can't even find suitors for Plekanec, let alone bring in another talented centre and stick two good wingers on each of his sides.

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Old
09-03-2012, 09:52 AM
  #427
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Plekanec managed to get 52 points, a meager 8 less than Desharnais, playing with a panoply of wingers, against the toughest opposition in the league, with a ton of defensive zone starts and dealing with the fatigue of 3 minutes a game of PK time. Towards the end of the season we were seeing a line of Staubitz-Plekanec-White: the contrast was between Desharnais playing with the two best wingers who are 1st liners on most NHL teams, and Plekanec playing with the two worst wingers on the team, guys who wouldn't make most 4th lines throughout the NHL.

Given these factors, it is clear that Plekanec is at this time a vastly more effective offensive center than Desharnais. Given Plekanec's role last year and the fact he played the toughest minutes on the team in terms of opposition, wingers, etc, there is no doubt that his production was spectacular.
You make very good points in respect to Plekanec's d-zone starts and linemates but you neglect to mention that for the first 25 games of the season Plekanec saw considerably more PP time than Desharnais and for the most part played with better linemates during that span.

Over the final 56 games Desharnais put up 47 points compared to Plekanec's 31 points. That is more than 50% more production from Desharnais than Plekanec over this span.........not exactly close.

You might want to consider that Cole played better with Desharnais than he did with Staal the previous season......last time I checked Eric Staal was a #1 center in this league.

I am not bashing Plekanec as he is a very usefull player but he is absolutely an inferior offensive player to Desharnais. Plekanec is a great skater with decent skills who is defensively responsible but his creativity is pretty average. Desharnais was a very good fit with Cole and Pacioretty as his deft touch complimented their power games perfectly. Cole and Pacioretty play a north-south game and require a center who can drift into soft spots and find them at the right moment. Plekanec has more of a tunnel vision approach and often can be frustrating when he doesn't adjust his speed to create distance from defenders in order to open up passing lanes. Like I said, Plekanec is a very good player and I don't want to see him moved but Desharnais is clearly the better fit as an offensive center.

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Old
09-03-2012, 10:36 AM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
You make very good points in respect to Plekanec's d-zone starts and linemates but you neglect to mention that for the first 25 games of the season Plekanec saw considerably more PP time than Desharnais and for the most part played with better linemates during that span.

Over the final 56 games Desharnais put up 47 points compared to Plekanec's 31 points. That is more than 50% more production from Desharnais than Plekanec over this span.........not exactly close.

You might want to consider that Cole played better with Desharnais than he did with Staal the previous season......last time I checked Eric Staal was a #1 center in this league.

I am not bashing Plekanec as he is a very usefull player but he is absolutely an inferior offensive player to Desharnais. Plekanec is a great skater with decent skills who is defensively responsible but his creativity is pretty average. Desharnais was a very good fit with Cole and Pacioretty as his deft touch complimented their power games perfectly. Cole and Pacioretty play a north-south game and require a center who can drift into soft spots and find them at the right moment. Plekanec has more of a tunnel vision approach and often can be frustrating when he doesn't adjust his speed to create distance from defenders in order to open up passing lanes. Like I said, Plekanec is a very good player and I don't want to see him moved but Desharnais is clearly the better fit as an offensive center.
I really don't understand why some of you don't get the concept that quality of linemates and opposition really matter in determining a player's production.

For an extreme example, look at James Neal. He was a 30-30 player at best when playing with Mike Ribeiro, and he became a 40-40 player when playing with Evgeni Malkin.

In this guy you cherrypick the final 56 games, and you criticize Plekanec for scoring 31 points in 56 games when starting in the defensive zone against players against the best players in the league and lining up with Brad Staubitz, Ryan White, Mathieu Darche, etc. You know how many points Desharnais would score with those kinds of players? Well, he had 22 points in 43 games last year playing with linemates of the same caliber as Ryan White, but without the stronger opposition and more dzone starts. That is inferior to Plekanec's 52 points in 82 games.

I want you to pause and think here, do yourself a favor and visualize two separate situations:

1) David Desharnais gets a faceoff in the offensive zone against Rick Peverly, with Max Pacioretty and Erik Cole on his wings.
2) Tomas Plekanec gets a faceoff in the defensive zone against Tyler Seguin. Brad Staubitz and Ryan White are on his wings.

Who do you think is going to get more points? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ?????? what a tough call, no idea ?????

Relative to Plekanec, Desharnais had:
- better linemates
- weaker opposition
- more ozone starts and fewer dzone starts

We can't control for all these factors, but we can control for weaker opposition by going to nhl.com. If we check up road stats, we can compare the players with Desharnais still having better linemates, still having more ozone starts, but not having weaker opposition.

Plekanec had 30 points in 41 road games whereas Desharnais had 25 points in 40 road games. Plekanec produced more, with equivalent opposition, weaker linemates and inferior zone starts.

Finally, we know how Plekanec can do when given favorable situations. He had 69 points in 2007-08 and 70 points in 2009-2010. When he's given the task of unfavorable situations but good linemates, he produces 57 points in 77 games like he did in 2010-2011.

Desharnais may one day become a better offensive player than Plekanec, but right now he's not there.

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09-03-2012, 10:40 AM
  #429
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Plekanec didn't produce more with weaker linemate... When he produced at the beginning of the season he had good linemate and he had a somewhat Ok pace.

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09-03-2012, 10:53 AM
  #430
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Originally Posted by durojean View Post
Plekanec didn't produce more with weaker linemate... When he produced at the beginning of the season he had good linemate and he had a somewhat Ok pace.
To get the best estimate, you need to take the largest sample size available, not the smallest sample size available. Plekanec has been a full-time player since 2006-07, where he's played in a variety of situations. We have a very good sense of how good a player he is.

In statistics, the signal goes as the square root of the number of data points. Thus, six full seasons is about ~4.2 times more significant than one third of a season. When focusing on 25 games, you're reducing the statistical signal and precision in your assessment of Plekanec by a factor of ~4.2. It's less relevant and this should be common sense. A lot of players have hot streaks and cold streaks over 25 games, and it's not because their skill level goes up or down. It's just statistical fluctuations. There's a lot of luck over 25 games, ~4.2 times as much luck as there is over 6 full seasons.

We've seen Plekanec get a favorable year in 2007-08 like Desharnais had in 2011-2012, with favorable matchups and ozone starts and PP time. He repeated this two years later with Cammalleri and Kostitsyn.
We've seen Plekanec at his worst, in 2008-09, when he was making a lot of bad decisions, was demoted, and finished with 39 points.

There is some legitimate uncertainty with Desharnais because we only have 1.5 seasons of data. There are decent odds that he's actually much better than his 60 point pace, because 1.5 seasons is a small sample. You want to argue that, then that's fine. It's a legitimate argument to say DD will improve.

With Plekanec, however, we have six seasons of information. Offensively, we know that he can produce 70 points over a season when given good linemates, good zone starts, and good PP time. There's no debate about this.

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Old
09-03-2012, 11:30 AM
  #431
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
1) Give him the same spot as last year and hope he becomes Henrik Sedin or Claude Giroux. If this happens he is worth structuring the team (ok, the offense) around.
2) Give him the same spot as last year, and then sell him at the deadline, so that the Habs can sell high for once. We can ride Plekanec-Eller-Galchenyuk down the middle in 2013-2014, the point from which surgical tanking will be over.
3) Transition Desharnais to wing at some point next year. Hope that Desharnais can become a poor man's version of St-Louis and that Galchenyuk can become a rich man's version of Lecavalier.
all logical and reasonable assumptions. i'd like add a fourth option: offensive third line center a-la briere. provided galchenyuk replaces him, and eller replaces plekanec (in the future, not next season or the next)

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09-03-2012, 11:50 AM
  #432
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
all logical and reasonable assumptions. i'd like add a fourth option: offensive third line center a-la briere. provided galchenyuk replaces him, and eller replaces plekanec (in the future, not next season or the next)
That's a fair choice.

Whether or not we should deal Plekanec or Desharnais or even Eller depends not just on their contributions to the team but on the relative trade value of those players over the next two years. For example, I think Plekanec > Desharnais on offense and defense, but if most GMs think the same then maybe we should trade Plekanec and cash in. We don't know the trade market is so it's very hard to say.

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Old
09-03-2012, 12:04 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
You make very good points in respect to Plekanec's d-zone starts and linemates but you neglect to mention that for the first 25 games of the season Plekanec saw considerably more PP time than Desharnais and for the most part played with better linemates during that span.

Over the final 56 games Desharnais put up 47 points compared to Plekanec's 31 points. That is more than 50% more production from Desharnais than Plekanec over this span.........not exactly close.

You might want to consider that Cole played better with Desharnais than he did with Staal the previous season......last time I checked Eric Staal was a #1 center in this league.

I am not bashing Plekanec as he is a very usefull player but he is absolutely an inferior offensive player to Desharnais. Plekanec is a great skater with decent skills who is defensively responsible but his creativity is pretty average. Desharnais was a very good fit with Cole and Pacioretty as his deft touch complimented their power games perfectly. Cole and Pacioretty play a north-south game and require a center who can drift into soft spots and find them at the right moment. Plekanec has more of a tunnel vision approach and often can be frustrating when he doesn't adjust his speed to create distance from defenders in order to open up passing lanes. Like I said, Plekanec is a very good player and I don't want to see him moved but Desharnais is clearly the better fit as an offensive center.
Plekanec was playing on the point early in the season while Desharnais was one of the PP centers. If anything that put DD in a better position for PP points. During the first month Plekanec had ~38 PP minutes on the point, Desharnais ~32, which was the most of those playing forward on the powerplay ahead of Gionta (~31) and Pacioretty (~30).

Desharnais was seeing pretty good minutes in the first 20 games. Before Cole-Desharnais-Pacioretty there was Kostitsyn-Desharnais-Pacioretty, and occasionally Cole-Desharnais-Cammalleri. Only in the first 2-3 games was he playing with Kositsyn-Desharnais-Darche.

Martin had Desharnais with offensive top six wingers pretty much from the get go, playing in very good offensive minutes (first unit powerplay time, as much ES time as any line on the team). Whereas it was clear in the beginning that Plekanec would be leaned on as a shutdown player more than previous years in order to exploit the teams' excellent scoring forward depth.

If you don't believe me, check Oliver's game reports:
http://enattendantlesnordiques.blogs...1_archive.html

Now the difference between a Desharnais 60 point year and a Plekanec 70 point year is more to do with better powerplay production for Plekanec (plus some PK points). Both at around 40 ES points. However, Plekanec in those years was never outscored by an even strength linemate (he was always his line's offensive leader on evens) whereas Desharnais was behind both Cole and Pacioretty by a fair margin.

By the same token, Cole's ES goal scoring basically didn't change from the previous year. His goal scoring increase was almost entirely from playing a much larger role on the PP in MTL compared to CAR.

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09-03-2012, 12:28 PM
  #434
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Really? Cause it kind of seems like you have an axe to grind calling him things like that.

He might be small, but he scored forty of his sixty points at even strength, twentieth center in the league in that category so I think it's fair to say he's more than a powerplay specialist. To put it in perspective, the year that Plekanec had seventy points, playing with Kovalev and Kostitsyn, he had only forty one points at even strength. That's good production.

And since when does a three and a half million dollar contract break a team anyway? Worst case scenario we just move him or someone else to the wing.

There's no reason why we can't keep Galchenyuk, Plekanec, and Desharnais. He's too valuable to this team. Cole's production only started taking off last year when he was centered by Desharnais. Pacioretty called him the best center he's ever played with. Showing Desharnais the door now would be among the dumbest things this team has done in the last five years.
no axe to grind bro , just want to win something since 1993

on a championship caliber team , he cant be on your top 6 or even top 9

ONCE AGAIN NAME ME ONE TEAM THAT WON ANYTHING WITH DD TYPES ON YOUR TOP 6 ........none bro none

like I said on previous posts where would be fit on the Kings ???

as your 13th forward ,cause he aint taking Kopitar , Ricahrds or Stoll`s job down the middle

put him on s h i t team he is fine

Galchenyuk ( when ready to take over in 1 year ) , Pleks and Eller
is a solid 1-3 down the middle the best we have had in many many years

DD is fine as a stop gap when you have nothing , a waste to spend another 4 years on this type on this team

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09-03-2012, 12:38 PM
  #435
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u mad bro?

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Old
09-03-2012, 12:40 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I really don't understand why some of you don't get the concept that quality of linemates and opposition really matter in determining a player's production.

For an extreme example, look at James Neal. He was a 30-30 player at best when playing with Mike Ribeiro, and he became a 40-40 player when playing with Evgeni Malkin.

In this guy you cherrypick the final 56 games, and you criticize Plekanec for scoring 31 points in 56 games when starting in the defensive zone against players against the best players in the league and lining up with Brad Staubitz, Ryan White, Mathieu Darche, etc. You know how many points Desharnais would score with those kinds of players? Well, he had 22 points in 43 games last year playing with linemates of the same caliber as Ryan White, but without the stronger opposition and more dzone starts. That is inferior to Plekanec's 52 points in 82 games.

I want you to pause and think here, do yourself a favor and visualize two separate situations:

1) David Desharnais gets a faceoff in the offensive zone against Rick Peverly, with Max Pacioretty and Erik Cole on his wings.
2) Tomas Plekanec gets a faceoff in the defensive zone against Tyler Seguin. Brad Staubitz and Ryan White are on his wings.

Who do you think is going to get more points? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ?????? what a tough call, no idea ?????

Relative to Plekanec, Desharnais had:
- better linemates
- weaker opposition
- more ozone starts and fewer dzone starts

We can't control for all these factors, but we can control for weaker opposition by going to nhl.com. If we check up road stats, we can compare the players with Desharnais still having better linemates, still having more ozone starts, but not having weaker opposition.

Plekanec had 30 points in 41 road games whereas Desharnais had 25 points in 40 road games. Plekanec produced more, with equivalent opposition, weaker linemates and inferior zone starts.

Finally, we know how Plekanec can do when given favorable situations. He had 69 points in 2007-08 and 70 points in 2009-2010. When he's given the task of unfavorable situations but good linemates, he produces 57 points in 77 games like he did in 2010-2011.

Desharnais may one day become a better offensive player than Plekanec, but right now he's not there.
bang on bro plus add the following

DD will not be effective without proper linemates

send him to Columbus and let him get his 50-60 points o na team going nowhere

he is not a defender , gets pushed off the puck , and is not a penalty killer

Pleks plays a 2 way game , can kill penalties and can play with different linemates

Even Eller plays with junk , gets no PP time and nearly scored 20 goals

he can skate, hit and has a rocket of shot

u put him with better players, what he doesnt producte more points

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09-03-2012, 12:51 PM
  #437
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bang on bro plus add the following

DD will not be effective without proper linemates

send him to Columbus and let him get his 50-60 points o na team going nowhere

he is not a defender , gets pushed off the puck , and is not a penalty killer

Pleks plays a 2 way game , can kill penalties and can play with different linemates

Even Eller plays with junk , gets no PP time and nearly scored 20 goals

he can skate, hit and has a rocket of shot

u put him with better players, what he doesnt producte more points
People forget that it was his first full nhl season, and he produced 60 points, which not many players are capable to do. Last year, he didn't played with our best wingers, and put up 0.51 points/game, which would do 42 points in 82 nhl games. This in his FIRST NHL SEASON. And no he does not get pushed off the puck, in fact he wins many battles.

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09-03-2012, 02:57 PM
  #438
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There is nothing absolutely nothing that is a proof that Desharnais can't be a number 1 center in a stanley cup winning team because we don't know his ceiling yet.

He did improve offensively and defensively over the year so he is still probably still progressing.

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09-03-2012, 04:26 PM
  #439
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Desharnais has scored at a point per game pace in every league he's played in. He'll be 26 at the beginning of training camp (I believe his birthday is mid September) and will be coming into only his 3rd season (140GP) in the NHL.

People speak of Desharnais as if he's peaked already. He's eventually been a dominant offensive force at every level he's played at previous to the NHL. Last year he played top line minutes, and while he was a bit sheltered, he produced. I see no reason why he can't improve upon those results. If anything the smart money is he will. He's a player who relies solely on his incredible hockey sense to succeed, and experience will only bode well for him.

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09-03-2012, 04:58 PM
  #440
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Desharnais has scored at a point per game pace in every league he's played in. He'll be 26 at the beginning of training camp (I believe his birthday is mid September) and will be coming into only his 3rd season (140GP) in the NHL.

People speak of Desharnais as if he's peaked already. He's eventually been a dominant offensive force at every level he's played at previous to the NHL. Last year he played top line minutes, and while he was a bit sheltered, he produced. I see no reason why he can't improve upon those results. If anything the smart money is he will. He's a player who relies solely on his incredible hockey sense to succeed, and experience will only bode well for him.
Being a point per game player in the Q and AHL really isn't much to hang your hat on. Most players that can crack an NHL top 6 either have done the same or would have done the same had they played at that level at the ages Desharnais did. 23 year old point per game players in the AHL aren't particularly remarkable. Its also pretty rare to see forwards significantly improve past 25 (unlike defensemen who are on a different curve).

Its not so much a matter of can't happen as what is likely to happen.

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09-03-2012, 05:17 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
You make very good points in respect to Plekanec's d-zone starts and linemates but you neglect to mention that for the first 25 games of the season Plekanec saw considerably more PP time than Desharnais and for the most part played with better linemates during that span.

Over the final 56 games Desharnais put up 47 points compared to Plekanec's 31 points. That is more than 50% more production from Desharnais than Plekanec over this span.........not exactly close.

You might want to consider that Cole played better with Desharnais than he did with Staal the previous season......last time I checked Eric Staal was a #1 center in this league.

I am not bashing Plekanec as he is a very usefull player but he is absolutely an inferior offensive player to Desharnais. Plekanec is a great skater with decent skills who is defensively responsible but his creativity is pretty average. Desharnais was a very good fit with Cole and Pacioretty as his deft touch complimented their power games perfectly. Cole and Pacioretty play a north-south game and require a center who can drift into soft spots and find them at the right moment. Plekanec has more of a tunnel vision approach and often can be frustrating when he doesn't adjust his speed to create distance from defenders in order to open up passing lanes. Like I said, Plekanec is a very good player and I don't want to see him moved but Desharnais is clearly the better fit as an offensive center.
I agree with everything about DD but seriously Plekanec with tunnel vision? Have you seen what he did with Kovalev/a talented player? Did you see what he did with Cammy before everything went to ****?

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09-03-2012, 06:28 PM
  #442
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There is nothing absolutely nothing that is a proof that Desharnais can't be a number 1 center in a stanley cup winning team because we don't know his ceiling yet.

He did improve offensively and defensively over the year so he is still probably still progressing.
Maybe you dont know what his celling is, personally Ive the pretention to say its pretty limited.. At 5"6, you have to have exceptional skills to succeed in this league cause straight off the bat, your reach is an handicap.. So unless you have speed to burn, there is a limit at what you can do as big as your determination is..

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09-03-2012, 11:06 PM
  #443
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Being a point per game player in the Q and AHL really isn't much to hang your hat on. Most players that can crack an NHL top 6 either have done the same or would have done the same had they played at that level at the ages Desharnais did. 23 year old point per game players in the AHL aren't particularly remarkable. Its also pretty rare to see forwards significantly improve past 25 (unlike defensemen who are on a different curve).

Its not so much a matter of can't happen as what is likely to happen.
I guess I agree on that. I didnt mean to sound like I think he's going to explode into a PPG player. What I should have said is that I think he'll at least maintain his production and wouldn't be surprised if he improved upon it a little.

I agree that his age outshines his past seasons but being a PPG in those leagues is definitely indicative of his offensive talent. If he improves his defensive game, or just general game away from the puck. Variables such as faceoffs, etc. He will definitely at least maintain the production he put up last year.

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09-04-2012, 01:56 AM
  #444
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I guess I agree on that. I didnt mean to sound like I think he's going to explode into a PPG player. What I should have said is that I think he'll at least maintain his production and wouldn't be surprised if he improved upon it a little.

I agree that his age outshines his past seasons but being a PPG in those leagues is definitely indicative of his offensive talent. If he improves his defensive game, or just general game away from the puck. Variables such as faceoffs, etc. He will definitely at least maintain the production he put up last year.
While I often position myself in the anti-Desharnais camp, its largely to counter what I consider unrealistic assessments of his impact and worth to the squad. There is a lot to like about 51's offensive ability if we take it away from conversations about a "1st line center" and towards that of "complimentary top six forward."

I see Desharnais as a player that provides the kind of playmaking support to his wingers that a very good offensive forward will provide but fairly weak at some other disciplines which limit his overall effectiveness. His puck possession, overall defense and likely his personal goal scoring I think he's very much weaker than Plekanec and probably Eller too. So he has the specialist role of being very good at some things but with notable deficiencies.

His track record before this league supports that he has at least the natural talent of a 45 point forward, likely better since he's generally translated well to the NHL. Its the 60 point scoring that has been touted which needs special circumstances. The value of putting him in these circumstances is determined by how much you need mid-level first line scoring from him and how much resources are you prepared to commit to making that happen.

As a top scoring unit forward I see him as the complimentary player or even place holder. The guy that keep up with your best, contribute and provide skills that may be lacking otherwise but not be the driver of results. Analogous to Burrows in Vancouver, Parenteau in NY, Purcell in TB etc. Much like my stance on A Kostitsyn, we shouldn't despise complimentary players but shouldn't expect what they can't deliver either.

Ultimately Desharnais should be looking at a similar role to the one that Cammalleri played in Montreal. I player valued for certain offensive zone skills but not counted on to carry the play, but be the support for those that did (Plekanec). Cammalleri probably had more talent but Desharnais should be re-numerated far less and 13 was a goalscorer and 51 a playmaker. If Galchenyuk is the real deal, then I think Desharnais future is on LW, but I think Galchenyuk should probably start on wing like Seguin and transition to C when ready. Something like:

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gionta
Galchenyuk-Desharnais-Cole

looks viable about a year from now and Desharnais and Galchenyuk could later flip roles.

Plekanec is a solid player but he needs the support of other good players to be the kind of two-way force the team needs at the top of the lineup. And that probably means pairing him with the teams' most dangerous offensive player in Pacioretty since no one else currently on LW is close to being sufficient for the role. We also want for opposing teams talent to be drawn away from Desharnais and that requires Plekanec's line be a real threat to score.

Desharnais is also more suited to winger instead of center defense. He's got the skill set to be a Gionta type two-way winger but not a Plekanec or Eller type two-way center.

He did see something of an improvement as time went on though, for example, in the beginning of the year when he faced Jordan Staal one night he got embarrassingly pinned in his own zone for the duration of the game. Later on in the year he had instances of acquitting himself well against good players, the game against San Jose where he matched against Thornton comes to mind. He did get better, just not enough in my opinion that he's really a good option for the role certain people are suggesting for him going forward. But, hey, I could be wrong.

I'd bet a lot of money on him not being the next St. Louis though.

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Old
09-04-2012, 02:09 AM
  #445
overlords
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
While I often position myself in the anti-Desharnais camp, its largely to counter what I consider unrealistic assessments of his impact and worth to the squad. There is a lot to like about 51's offensive ability if we take it away from conversations about a "1st line center" and towards that of "complimentary top six forward."

I see Desharnais as a player that provides the kind of playmaking support to his wingers that a very good offensive forward will provide but fairly weak at some other disciplines which limit his overall effectiveness. His puck possession, overall defense and likely his personal goal scoring I think he's very much weaker than Plekanec and probably Eller too. So he has the specialist role of being very good at some things but with notable deficiencies.

His track record before this league supports that he has at least the natural talent of a 45 point forward, likely better since he's generally translated well to the NHL. Its the 60 point scoring that has been touted which needs special circumstances. The value of putting him in these circumstances is determined by how much you need mid-level first line scoring from him and how much resources are you prepared to commit to making that happen.

As a top scoring unit forward I see him as the complimentary player or even place holder. The guy that keep up with your best, contribute and provide skills that may be lacking otherwise but not be the driver of results. Analogous to Burrows in Vancouver, Parenteau in NY, Purcell in TB etc. Much like my stance on A Kostitsyn, we shouldn't despise complimentary players but shouldn't expect what they can't deliver either.

Ultimately Desharnais should be looking at a similar role to the one that Cammalleri played in Montreal. I player valued for certain offensive zone skills but not counted on to carry the play, but be the support for those that did (Plekanec). Cammalleri probably had more talent but Desharnais should be re-numerated far less and 13 was a goalscorer and 51 a playmaker. If Galchenyuk is the real deal, then I think Desharnais future is on LW, but I think Galchenyuk should probably start on wing like Seguin and transition to C when ready. Something like:

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gionta
Galchenyuk-Desharnais-Cole

looks viable about a year from now and Desharnais and Galchenyuk could later flip roles.

Plekanec is a solid player but he needs the support of other good players to be the kind of two-way force the team needs at the top of the lineup. And that probably means pairing him with the teams' most dangerous offensive player in Pacioretty since no one else currently on LW is close to being sufficient for the role. We also want for opposing teams talent to be drawn away from Desharnais and that requires Plekanec's line be a real threat to score.

Desharnais is also more suited to winger instead of center defense. He's got the skill set to be a Gionta type two-way winger but not a Plekanec or Eller type two-way center.

He did see something of an improvement as time went on though, for example, in the beginning of the year when he faced Jordan Staal one night he got embarrassingly pinned in his own zone for the duration of the game. Later on in the year he had instances of acquitting himself well against good players, the game against San Jose where he matched against Thornton comes to mind. He did get better, just not enough in my opinion that he's really a good option for the role certain people are suggesting for him going forward. But, hey, I could be wrong.

I'd bet a lot of money on him not being the next St. Louis though.
Excellent post. Always a pleasure reading you, TGP.

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Old
09-04-2012, 05:22 AM
  #446
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You can't do the Pacioretty Plekanec Cole because by the end of the year Cole will become too old and Pacioretty an overpayment.

Plekanec is a good point producer but let's be honest... He's not using his linemates well... He'll go into a slump like he always do and then... Good luck defending him.

You'll see.

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09-04-2012, 09:12 AM
  #447
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Originally Posted by durojean View Post
You can't do the Pacioretty Plekanec Cole because by the end of the year Cole will become too old and Pacioretty an overpayment.

Plekanec is a good point producer but let's be honest... He's not using his linemates well... He'll go into a slump like he always do and then... Good luck defending him.

You'll see.
Well... I think I remember 09-10 when Cammy and AK we're his winger.. He was exploiting them pretty good. Cammy had his best year with us and AK was dominant.

Even though Plekanec is one of the best all-alone player in the league doesnt mean he can't pass the puck.

Hockey need's to start back you guy's don't remember anything

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09-04-2012, 11:47 AM
  #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
While I often position myself in the anti-Desharnais camp, its largely to counter what I consider unrealistic assessments of his impact and worth to the squad. There is a lot to like about 51's offensive ability if we take it away from conversations about a "1st line center" and towards that of "complimentary top six forward."

I see Desharnais as a player that provides the kind of playmaking support to his wingers that a very good offensive forward will provide but fairly weak at some other disciplines which limit his overall effectiveness. His puck possession, overall defense and likely his personal goal scoring I think he's very much weaker than Plekanec and probably Eller too. So he has the specialist role of being very good at some things but with notable deficiencies.

His track record before this league supports that he has at least the natural talent of a 45 point forward, likely better since he's generally translated well to the NHL. Its the 60 point scoring that has been touted which needs special circumstances. The value of putting him in these circumstances is determined by how much you need mid-level first line scoring from him and how much resources are you prepared to commit to making that happen.

As a top scoring unit forward I see him as the complimentary player or even place holder. The guy that keep up with your best, contribute and provide skills that may be lacking otherwise but not be the driver of results. Analogous to Burrows in Vancouver, Parenteau in NY, Purcell in TB etc. Much like my stance on A Kostitsyn, we shouldn't despise complimentary players but shouldn't expect what they can't deliver either.

Ultimately Desharnais should be looking at a similar role to the one that Cammalleri played in Montreal. I player valued for certain offensive zone skills but not counted on to carry the play, but be the support for those that did (Plekanec). Cammalleri probably had more talent but Desharnais should be re-numerated far less and 13 was a goalscorer and 51 a playmaker. If Galchenyuk is the real deal, then I think Desharnais future is on LW, but I think Galchenyuk should probably start on wing like Seguin and transition to C when ready. Something like:

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gionta
Galchenyuk-Desharnais-Cole

looks viable about a year from now and Desharnais and Galchenyuk could later flip roles.

Plekanec is a solid player but he needs the support of other good players to be the kind of two-way force the team needs at the top of the lineup. And that probably means pairing him with the teams' most dangerous offensive player in Pacioretty since no one else currently on LW is close to being sufficient for the role. We also want for opposing teams talent to be drawn away from Desharnais and that requires Plekanec's line be a real threat to score.

Desharnais is also more suited to winger instead of center defense. He's got the skill set to be a Gionta type two-way winger but not a Plekanec or Eller type two-way center.

He did see something of an improvement as time went on though, for example, in the beginning of the year when he faced Jordan Staal one night he got embarrassingly pinned in his own zone for the duration of the game. Later on in the year he had instances of acquitting himself well against good players, the game against San Jose where he matched against Thornton comes to mind. He did get better, just not enough in my opinion that he's really a good option for the role certain people are suggesting for him going forward. But, hey, I could be wrong.

I'd bet a lot of money on him not being the next St. Louis though.
good post but he has no hands and a weak shot

he is not a goal scorer , not a winger on the top 6

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09-04-2012, 11:49 AM
  #449
bsl
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Originally Posted by Vasculio View Post
Ain't there rules against thread hijacking ? It's about Desharnais's next contract damnit, and as far as I know, he was our most productive center last season, and we NEED production. I remember, in the mid nineties, some productive players were traded so that another, younger one would have the room needed for his development... yup, let's do it again !

People think that he wouldn't deserve a big raise, even if he was as or more productive as this season, need to get their heads out of their ass...
It's not hijacking. DD is signed, and the thread is pointless this year. Topic moved on.

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Old
09-04-2012, 11:50 AM
  #450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
While I often position myself in the anti-Desharnais camp, its largely to counter what I consider unrealistic assessments of his impact and worth to the squad. There is a lot to like about 51's offensive ability if we take it away from conversations about a "1st line center" and towards that of "complimentary top six forward."

I see Desharnais as a player that provides the kind of playmaking support to his wingers that a very good offensive forward will provide but fairly weak at some other disciplines which limit his overall effectiveness. His puck possession, overall defense and likely his personal goal scoring I think he's very much weaker than Plekanec and probably Eller too. So he has the specialist role of being very good at some things but with notable deficiencies.

His track record before this league supports that he has at least the natural talent of a 45 point forward, likely better since he's generally translated well to the NHL. Its the 60 point scoring that has been touted which needs special circumstances. The value of putting him in these circumstances is determined by how much you need mid-level first line scoring from him and how much resources are you prepared to commit to making that happen.

As a top scoring unit forward I see him as the complimentary player or even place holder. The guy that keep up with your best, contribute and provide skills that may be lacking otherwise but not be the driver of results. Analogous to Burrows in Vancouver, Parenteau in NY, Purcell in TB etc. Much like my stance on A Kostitsyn, we shouldn't despise complimentary players but shouldn't expect what they can't deliver either.

Ultimately Desharnais should be looking at a similar role to the one that Cammalleri played in Montreal. I player valued for certain offensive zone skills but not counted on to carry the play, but be the support for those that did (Plekanec). Cammalleri probably had more talent but Desharnais should be re-numerated far less and 13 was a goalscorer and 51 a playmaker. If Galchenyuk is the real deal, then I think Desharnais future is on LW, but I think Galchenyuk should probably start on wing like Seguin and transition to C when ready. Something like:

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gionta
Galchenyuk-Desharnais-Cole

looks viable about a year from now and Desharnais and Galchenyuk could later flip roles.

Plekanec is a solid player but he needs the support of other good players to be the kind of two-way force the team needs at the top of the lineup. And that probably means pairing him with the teams' most dangerous offensive player in Pacioretty since no one else currently on LW is close to being sufficient for the role. We also want for opposing teams talent to be drawn away from Desharnais and that requires Plekanec's line be a real threat to score.

Desharnais is also more suited to winger instead of center defense. He's got the skill set to be a Gionta type two-way winger but not a Plekanec or Eller type two-way center.

He did see something of an improvement as time went on though, for example, in the beginning of the year when he faced Jordan Staal one night he got embarrassingly pinned in his own zone for the duration of the game. Later on in the year he had instances of acquitting himself well against good players, the game against San Jose where he matched against Thornton comes to mind. He did get better, just not enough in my opinion that he's really a good option for the role certain people are suggesting for him going forward. But, hey, I could be wrong.

I'd bet a lot of money on him not being the next St. Louis though.
This line just contredict what you are trying to express. NO, Desharnais is not a winger. Not fast and strong enough. He has the vision and passing skills of a real center, a position he had alwayds played. Just ask yourself WHY ALL his coaches never played him on the wing ? Just ask yourself how come all the wingers playing with him appreciate his play as a centerman ? No, he won't be the next St-Louis... But he will certainly be the FIRST Desharnais.

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