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Old
09-03-2012, 04:07 PM
  #26
PuckSim8
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Looking at just the past two seasons he's...

Goals
22nd among all (2 goals behind Tavares, One ahead of Selanne)
13th among wingers

Assists
23rd among all (tied with Pavelski, just behind Iginla/Hossa/Ovechkin)
13th among wingers

Points
25th among all (6 points ahead of Bobby Ryan, tied with Hossa and Whitney)
15th among wingers

Goals Per Game
28th among all (Tied with Tavares, Selanne, Hossa, Hartnell, Cole, Franzen, and Michalek)
16th among wingers

Points per game
27th among all (.01 behind Gaborik and Elias, ahead of Ryan, Marleau, Eberle)
15th among wingers

So all told, he's still a top 20-25 player in the NHL and a top 15-20 winger.

In other words a guy that you want on your team but he's not going to carry your team by himself

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

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Old
09-03-2012, 04:15 PM
  #27
Connor McDavid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Pretty sure I said the last 3 years, not the last 4. 86 goals over last 3, 126 over last 4... Care to post a link to the stat I requested?
Ah, my mistake! Yes, let's shrink the sample size for more accurate results.

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Old
09-03-2012, 04:26 PM
  #28
tsujimoto74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
FYI the answer is 24th
Vanek is 24th in goal scoring over the last 3 years... For some perspective, burrows is 22nd.... Bobby Ryan is 8th

Vanek is the player we've seen over the last 3 years. He's not an elite goal scorer.
Oh man only 24th, what a terrible player, barely even a first line talent, etc.
Seriously? 24th is still really, really good. He can't carry the team by himself, we know that -- we've seen him try. But he's a great goal-scorer, a good player, and the kind of guy I'm glad to have on my team.

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09-03-2012, 06:21 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Sabres fans, always making excuses
Its a fact. I also dont think Vanek is elite, but he will score 40 again in his career. I think if you look at his even strength goals vs pp goals it shows that if he had consistent line mates he would probably higher up on the list. Most of the elite scorers play with other elite players.

Vanek is a goal scorer, just has a follower type personality.

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Old
09-03-2012, 06:30 PM
  #30
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
Oh man only 24th, what a terrible player, barely even a first line talent, etc.
Seriously? 24th is still really, really good. He can't carry the team by himself, we know that -- we've seen him try. But he's a great goal-scorer, a good player, and the kind of guy I'm glad to have on my team.
Considering that most players on that list bring more complete games or other intangible qualities like physical play and leadership etc, it's really not that impressive.

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Old
09-03-2012, 06:32 PM
  #31
RazielMoshman
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Vanek will always be a polarising player as his our most skilled forward.

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Old
09-03-2012, 06:40 PM
  #32
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Its a fact. I also dont think Vanek is elite, but he will score 40 again in his career. I think if you look at his even strength goals vs pp goals it shows that if he had consistent line mates he would probably higher up on the list. Most of the elite scorers play with other elite players.

Vanek is a goal scorer, just has a follower type personality.
It's a defies logic to expect vanek to score 40 again. He did it twice.
1. In a post lockout League that no longer exists
2. And the 2nd time was with 20 pp goals he is very unlikely to ever duplicate.

Again, Sabres fans have blinders on

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Old
09-03-2012, 06:43 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Ah, my mistake! Yes, let's shrink the sample size for more accurate results.
Yes. That would be correct. 3 years is a better sample size for evaluating players. If you are a veteran, and havent done it in the last 3 years, you are unlikely to do it Again. I'm open to examples that disprove this. Go for it.

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Old
09-03-2012, 06:52 PM
  #34
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Thomas Vanek could go for 40G yearly for the next 5 seasons. and someone would still find a way to way to criticize his skating or intensity level. He could be impaled with a stick, yet finish his shift before he came off, and someone would criticize his toughness. He could lead all skaters in hits, and someone would say he didn't hit hard enough.

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Old
09-03-2012, 07:04 PM
  #35
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Vanek and Miller easily our two best players since the lock-out. This stat proves that more, thanks!

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Old
09-03-2012, 07:18 PM
  #36
Connor McDavid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Yes. That would be correct. 3 years is a better sample size for evaluating players. If you are a veteran, and havent done it in the last 3 years, you are unlikely to do it Again. I'm open to examples that disprove this. Go for it.
http://sabres.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8469506

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Old
09-03-2012, 07:30 PM
  #37
Moskau
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Yes. That would be correct. 3 years is a better sample size for evaluating players. If you are a veteran, and havent done it in the last 3 years, you are unlikely to do it Again. I'm open to examples that disprove this. Go for it.
You can't go on anti Ruff tirades about ice time and use of players for years and then refuse to bring them up to fit your Vanek agenda at the same time. Come on man. I realize you think that you are smarter than everyone else and talking to a bunch of high school students but it's getting old.

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Old
09-03-2012, 07:44 PM
  #38
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moskau View Post
You can't go on anti Ruff tirades about ice time and use of players for years and then refuse to bring them up to fit your Vanek agenda at the same time. Come on man. I realize you think that you are smarter than everyone else and talking to a bunch of high school students but it's getting old.
i dont think Vanek is going to return to 40 goal production... do you? if so, why?

Why is it that every time someone is critical of a tenured player, it's an agenda?

I used to defend Vanek... all the time.

Why should I NOT expect him to be the player he has been over the last 3 years? Im open to rational viewpoints. But pointing to seasons from 6 years ago... or even anomaly performances from 4 years ago... doesn't cut it

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Old
09-03-2012, 07:45 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
that was awesome

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Old
09-03-2012, 07:46 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Vanek and Miller easily our two best players since the lock-out. This stat proves that more, thanks!
2 of the 5 individuals most responsible for the failure of the last 5 years...

1 of them is gone, the other 2 wear suits

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Old
09-03-2012, 08:33 PM
  #41
tsujimoto74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i dont think Vanek is going to return to 40 goal production... do you? if so, why?

Why is it that every time someone is critical of a tenured player, it's an agenda?

I used to defend Vanek... all the time.

Why should I NOT expect him to be the player he has been over the last 3 years? Im open to rational viewpoints. But pointing to seasons from 6 years ago... or even anomaly performances from 4 years ago... doesn't cut it
http://sabres.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8469506

Pominville just repeated an "anomaly" year from 4 seasons ago after failing to get more than 24 goals or 66 points in any of the 3 previous seasons, and coming off a career worst year (not counting his rookie season).

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09-03-2012, 09:34 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
http://sabres.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8469506

Pominville just repeated an "anomaly" year from 4 seasons ago after failing to get more than 24 goals or 66 points in any of the 3 previous seasons, and coming off a career worst year (not counting his rookie season).
Doesnt matter vanek sucks man we should trade him for a 2nd well we still can

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Old
09-03-2012, 10:10 PM
  #43
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Do we praise/trash Vanek to keep from focusing on this interesting stat:

Hodgson/Ennis = 1.5 season's worth of games played at center?

This team has bigger fish to fry at the moment than determining Vanek's relative value.

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Old
09-03-2012, 10:34 PM
  #44
Connor McDavid
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I don't understand what this argument is even about.

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Old
09-03-2012, 10:58 PM
  #45
Jame
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
Doesnt matter vanek sucks man we should trade him for a 2nd well we still can
Do you think Vanek is even tradeable in a world where the cap is below 60 million? half the league is going to be over the cap.

Do you think anyone would give up anything for a 30/60 player who accounts for 12% of your cap space?

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Old
09-03-2012, 11:10 PM
  #46
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
http://sabres.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8469506

Pominville just repeated an "anomaly" year from 4 seasons ago after failing to get more than 24 goals or 66 points in any of the 3 previous seasons, and coming off a career worst year (not counting his rookie season).
that's a great example... got any regarding 40 goal scorers?

you know only 4 players scored 40 last year right?
the year before that... only 5 players scored 40....
and 3 years ago... only 7 players....
4 years ago... 10
5 years ago... 11

get it?

Vanek's not scoring 40 for the Sabres ever again... I'll take that bet with anyone.

Again... here's the facts that are conveniently ignored...

Vanek's 1st 40 goal season
- On a "3rd line" easy shifts behind Briere and Drury Line
- In a wide open league

Vanek's 2nd 40 goal season
- A complete anomaly of 20 PP goals
- He's one of only 2 players to have 20 PP goals in a season in the last 4 years, Stamkos did it too... ONCE.
- Since then, he's had PP goal seasons of 10, 11, and 10

Vanek is a 30 goal forward.... accept it

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Old
09-03-2012, 11:12 PM
  #47
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
I don't understand what this argument is even about.
the common mistake of leaving the context out of statistics leading to the massive overvaluation of a player

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Old
09-03-2012, 11:36 PM
  #48
Connor McDavid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
the common mistake of leaving the context out of statistics leading to the massive overvaluation of a player
What is his value purported to be, then?

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Old
09-03-2012, 11:36 PM
  #49
tsujimoto74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
that's a great example... got any regarding 40 goal scorers?

you know only 4 players scored 40 last year right?
the year before that... only 5 players scored 40....
and 3 years ago... only 7 players....
4 years ago... 10
5 years ago... 11

get it?

Vanek's not scoring 40 for the Sabres ever again... I'll take that bet with anyone.

Again... here's the facts that are conveniently ignored...

Vanek's 1st 40 goal season
- On a "3rd line" easy shifts behind Briere and Drury Line
- In a wide open league

Vanek's 2nd 40 goal season
- A complete anomaly of 20 PP goals
- He's one of only 2 players to have 20 PP goals in a season in the last 4 years, Stamkos did it too... ONCE.
- Since then, he's had PP goal seasons of 10, 11, and 10

Vanek is a 30 goal forward.... accept it
Where did I claim Vanek was a 40 goal forward or would score 40 again? You're arguing against something no one has said but you.

And I have absolutely no problem "accepting" a 30 goal winger on my team. Glad to have him here.

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Old
09-04-2012, 05:16 AM
  #50
RazielMoshman
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
2 of the 5 individuals most responsible for the failure of the last 5 years...

1 of them is gone, the other 2 wear suits
How can you field a successful team with no money to spend? Pittsburgh, NYI couldn't manage it. Regier should have built a better team after the Drury-Briere fiasco, that much is true. We certainly cant ask any more of Miller or Vanek, I'm sorry thats not even opinion, it's fact. If we had better centers maybe, or Regier had built a better team over the last 5 years we'd have done better. Either way who cares? It's the past. Learn and move on, at least Regier seems to be doing that.

As far as our veterans go I have bigger questions about Leino, Ennis, Foligno, Stafford, Leopold, Weber and Miller. Vanek is the least of my worries.


Last edited by RazielMoshman: 09-04-2012 at 05:39 AM.
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