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Tomas Kaberle: The Most Underrated Habs Player on the Boards

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Old
09-03-2012, 10:22 PM
  #101
Joey
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Utilised properly, Kaberle is a tremendous asset. With the cap's rise, his salary isn't as much of an issue. Given light minutes and PP time, he can find the passes the Habs so desperately need from the back end.

The fact is, a 40 point season from Tomas Kaberle is underwhelming. A 40 point season from any of our other D? A career high, or a return to form. That is fact.

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09-03-2012, 10:59 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I think the point is we shouldn't completely discount him, which is what many people here do. He should be given a legit chance to become an impact player again.
.
like Gomez, if he's on the opening day roster we have to hope for the best, but at any opportunity to move him for whatever modest return (so long as it isn't worse contract-wise), you pull the trigger.

With Diaz, Weber, Bouillion, and then Beaulieu, St-Denis, Nash in Hamilton, Kaberle is expendable unless he is giving us quality top-4 play from a pure hockey pov, and with his contract that makes him a "move asap" asset.

and that's with the current cap-system, who knows how the CBA talks will go and what impact his bad contract will have under the new deal (can't get better, could get worse)

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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
I don't think anyone is arguing that he's a good top 4 option. If they are then they are dead wrong IMO.

Its more that the denigration has gone too far. For next season he looks to probably bring more to the table than say, Diaz.

We're past the point of expecting "good" from Kaberle, but not past the point of "useful."

As for trade value, people should keep in mind he was way better for Montreal than he was for Carolina, where he was brutal which is why his market value was a few months of Spacek. The player that was in Montreal should resemble the market value of a very similar player and contract in Zidlicky, not worth much but movable for minor assets. That's a matter of a team suddenly finding themselves short on puckmovement and PP skill, which is usually a matter of mid-season injuries.
a 2nd would be a dream, a 3rd still pleasant... but even for a 6th and/or a minor prospect is worth it. If the market for him is weak, and he shows nothing in camp to indicate "toronto" Kaberle, then MB should target a goaltending prospect, someone just hitting the pros but burried in the depth chart somewhere... not bad to add depth in that area and if we can find a team that isn't bothered by the cap limit, Kaberle's pp production could be worth the 4M$ salary hit.

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09-03-2012, 11:20 PM
  #103
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The thing that boggs me the most about Kaberle is that I can't think of whom he should play with. He needs a solid defensive partner but even then you can't rely on him to face top opposition.

He would need to play with a Gorges type but we need Gorges to take tough minutes and Kabs can't do that. All of our RHD are offensive minded. Weber or Diaz would make an incredibly soft and vulnerable pairing. You can't pair him with Subban either because you need Subban to play agains top opposition. Both Emelin and Bouillon aren't as good on the right side.

I don't hate Kaberle, I just think he's a bad fit with the other players we have. I would love him on our 3rd pairing if we had a defensive minded RHD to play him with.

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09-04-2012, 06:53 AM
  #104
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Kaberle is above average offensively and soft defensively, give him Gorges or Emelin and he'll be fine at even strength.. his weaknesses got overexposed last year when he was stuck playing with other smaller or soft guys like Campoli, Diaz and Weber.

Something like this could work out pretty good, or switch Bouillon and Kaberle.

Markov - Subban
Bouillon - Gorges
Kaberle - Emelin
Diaz

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09-04-2012, 06:53 AM
  #105
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I still believe Kaberle might be a strong asset to have but at the same time which Kaberle we get could be hard to tell. He is older and slowing down, he needs ice time to really produce and Subban and a healthy Markov would be ahead of him.

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09-04-2012, 07:01 AM
  #106
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The original post is tough to agree with when the Tyutin comparison is made.

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09-04-2012, 08:51 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey View Post
Utilised properly, Kaberle is a tremendous asset. With the cap's rise, his salary isn't as much of an issue. Given light minutes and PP time, he can find the passes the Habs so desperately need from the back end. .
Well it really depends on the CBA. If its accurate owners want to cut the revenue % without any cost cutting then teams like Montreal will have to shed 10-15 million in salary thus a guy like Kaberle does become a huge burden.

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09-04-2012, 08:55 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by 2 Chainz View Post
Kaberle is above average offensively and soft defensively, give him Gorges or Emelin and he'll be fine at even strength.. his weaknesses got overexposed last year when he was stuck playing with other smaller or soft guys like Campoli, Diaz and Weber.

Something like this could work out pretty good, or switch Bouillon and Kaberle.

Markov - Subban
Bouillon - Gorges
Kaberle - Emelin
Diaz
Who was his partner on the big bad bruins? Asking because most of their defenseman are tough and guess what, they only spot used him and managed his minutes a lot.

He struggled in Carolina, not sure who his partner was there.

He was bad defensively in Montreal, and again his partners are blamed.

Its not that Kaberle is soft that makes him poor defensively, it was poor decisions in the defensive zone and piss poor body position. He always found himself with his opponent getting the position closer to the net than he was.

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09-04-2012, 09:20 AM
  #109
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Kaberle's profile, according to me. Good passer, poised with the puck. Poor positioning defensively, loses one on one battles, not a player that gives a second effort when defending.

The biggest problem is that whether a player is good or bad, he needs to fill a need. The Habs need strong D in their own end and they needed a setup man for the PP. He only fills one of those two roles.

His lack of physicality and the appearance of not giving to much effort in his own end reduce his attractiveness as a trade-able asset.

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09-04-2012, 11:28 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Well it really depends on the CBA. If its accurate owners want to cut the revenue % without any cost cutting then teams like Montreal will have to shed 10-15 million in salary thus a guy like Kaberle does become a huge burden.
I think he is a clear #2 in line for any compliance buyouts, in the event that a new cap figure requires us to cut below the Gomez line, and in the event that's the mechanism that is brought in to allow teams to meet a lowered cap. A $58M cap and compliance buyouts automatically means we cut Kaberle free in addition to Gomez, IMHO.

Probably that won't all happen, and if the $58M cap was the owners' latest, any settlement will probably end up above that.

Still, it says something pretty clear about Kaberle that he's that next-up guy in terms of expendability.

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09-04-2012, 11:47 AM
  #111
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I have to respectfully disagree with the OP. First of all, this is a well-thought post and an in depth explaination of your point. Congrats. But we're going in over-analysis territory there.

My post will be shorter and straight to the point. I didn't watch every game last year, but when I did watch my habs, Kaberle was such a mess. His defensive play was so terrible that I couldn't even believe it. I guess some people got used to it and put too much thought into it but the truth is, he was terrible lol.

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09-04-2012, 12:09 PM
  #112
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Kaberle would've been sick to have the year we were in first place. That's the kind of hockey he likes to play. Pure offence. If you expect him to be a stud defensively, or even average really, then you didn't know Tomas Kaberle. It's like expecting offense from Gorges. They are paid similarly for different reasons. Offensive players are generally overpaid in my opinion, but Kaberle can still notch easily over .5 ppg which is good for 4.25M.

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09-04-2012, 03:49 PM
  #113
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To be honest, the only underrated aspect of Kaberle's game IMO is just how far his 5 on 5 game has slipped. He's downright cringe-worthy against top opposition, the only way he could be trusted in our top 4 is paired with Gorges or Subban, and with reduced (I.E. 2nd pairing) minutes. I don't think his contract is bad for a PP specialist, 4.25M for a reliable 3rd pairing PP specialist (he's bad 5v5 but he's not 2010 M-A Bergeron bad, you can give him a regular 3rd pairing shift with Boullion/Emelin/Diaz). Kaberle definitely has a place in the NHL, and he could have a place on our team if we had a different group of defensemen.

The problem is he's not good enough 5v5 to play on our top 4, and he's not good enough offensively to play on our top PP unit. Well, that's not exactly true, he's still one of the best PP QB's in the league. The "problem", is that Markov is even better, and Subban will likely play the other point. That basically means that we're paying Kaberle 4.25M to play on our 3rd pairing and the last 40 seconds of the PP. That's just not good value. The only way I can see to get decent value out of his contract is to run with a top PP of Kaberle-Markov (Markov as the triggerman), which honestly could work. However, I don't see it as likely. I think Subban is pretty much a lock for the 1st pairing, and I also think it would be pretty hard to justify taking Markov off the 1st PP for Kaberle.

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09-04-2012, 04:45 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Cole View Post
Kaberle's profile, according to me. Good passer, poised with the puck. Poor positioning defensively, loses one on one battles, not a player that gives a second effort when defending.

The biggest problem is that whether a player is good or bad, he needs to fill a need. The Habs need strong D in their own end and they needed a setup man for the PP. He only fills one of those two roles.

His lack of physicality and the appearance of not giving to much effort in his own end reduce his attractiveness as a trade-able asset.
What I highlighted needs to be repeated over and over and over again.

The knock against Kaberle is not regarding his style of play or what he brings to the team. The knock is that he does not fill a need in Montreal and his cap money could/should have been used to fill needs. He is redundant on a team that has too many DMen who do not play strong defense.

GREAT post!!!!

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09-04-2012, 04:53 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
What I highlighted needs to be repeated over and over and over again.

The knock against Kaberle is not regarding his style of play or what he brings to the team. The knock is that he does not fill a need in Montreal and his cap money could/should have been used to fill needs. He is redundant on a team that has too many DMen who do not play strong defense.

GREAT post!!!!
Agreed, if only he could somehow transform into Tim Gleason or Mark Stuart, then we could use Beaulieu as his replacement!

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09-04-2012, 04:54 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Joe Cole View Post
Kaberle's profile, according to me. Good passer, poised with the puck. Poor positioning defensively, loses one on one battles, not a player that gives a second effort when defending.

The biggest problem is that whether a player is good or bad, he needs to fill a need. The Habs need strong D in their own end and they needed a setup man for the PP. He only fills one of those two roles.

His lack of physicality and the appearance of not giving to much effort in his own end reduce his attractiveness as a trade-able asset.
It's all about points, man. Don't you know how productive a player is is relative to their value ?

That's why Bourque should be dealt for anything and Kaberle should be praised to no end.

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09-04-2012, 07:25 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Would you rather have Fedor Tyutin who has a 4.5 million cap hit through 2018?
I think Kaberle is unfairly and often stupidly maligned by a lot of fans, and I think he may very well be a decent contributor this season, but that being said, I would definitely rather have Fedor Tyutin and at $4.5 til 2018. He'd be an outstanding addition to the Canadiens and a great steadying influence.

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09-06-2012, 10:51 AM
  #118
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It's all about points, man. Don't you know how productive a player is is relative to their value ?

That's why Bourque should be dealt for anything and Kaberle should be praised to no end.
Yeah, I know. Some just know how to read a stats sheet, not much else.

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09-06-2012, 11:26 AM
  #119
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Yeah, I know. Some just know how to read a stats sheet, not much else.
Regular season standings are based on scoring more points than the other team.

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09-06-2012, 01:31 PM
  #120
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considering our blue line prospects, and that this team will blossom in 2-3 years, when Kabs will probably be even further in decline and possibly useless, i rather get rid of him, while he might still hold some value.
I wouldn't mind seeing him produce in limited role, and get shipped at trade deadline for some goodies.

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Regular season standings are based on scoring more points than the other team.
What about SO's ?

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09-06-2012, 02:21 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Well it really depends on the CBA. If its accurate owners want to cut the revenue % without any cost cutting then teams like Montreal will have to shed 10-15 million in salary thus a guy like Kaberle does become a huge burden.
If they cut back the cap that much Kaberle's cap hit would drop to around 3.3 mil as salaries/cap hits would get scaled back.

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09-06-2012, 03:24 PM
  #122
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considering our blue line prospects, and that this team will blossom in 2-3 years, when Kabs will probably be even further in decline and possibly useless, i rather get rid of him, while he might still hold some value.
I wouldn't mind seeing him produce in limited role, and get shipped at trade deadline for some goodies.


What about SO's ?
Shootouts are probably even more statistical in nature than the rest of hockey, though people have only started keeping track.

I am the one who started this pro-Kaberle thread, and I would have no problem trading him. I listed several examples of comparable players getting 2nd round draft picks or better. If we're a 11-15th place at the deadline like I've predicted elsewhere, and if Beaulieu and Ellis are kicking ass in Hamilton, than we should trade Kaberle.

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09-06-2012, 03:53 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Shootouts are probably even more statistical in nature than the rest of hockey, though people have only started keeping track.

.
It was more or less a comment on your simplistic association between Player having x points and overall standings (which seems to be the suggestion? Kabs produces points, points are directly associated to overall standing, so Kabs helps us in the standing. which can be easly true or false).

As for the SO's comment, pretty sure you mean that SO's is easily prone to statistical prediction, as in, it has less variables to calculate, making it easier to predict.

People have been keeping track of SO stats since it was introduced,
http://www.nhl.com/ice/shootoutstats.htm

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09-06-2012, 04:00 PM
  #124
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It was more or less a comment on your simplistic association between Player having x points and overall standings (which seems to be the suggestion? Kabs produces points, points are directly associated to overall standing, so Kabs helps us in the standing. which can be easly true or false).
As I said in my OP, Kaberle helped the team, but it was too little to overwhelm the tidal forces of mismanagement pulling us to a lottery spot.

With Spacek on the team, we might have been able to select Alex Galchenyuk with the 2nd overall pick :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
As for the SO's comment, pretty sure you mean that SO's is easily prone to statistical prediction, as in, it has less variables to calculate, making it easier to predict.

People have been keeping track of SO stats since it was introduced,
http://www.nhl.com/ice/shootoutstats.htm
I'm not sure how advanced the analysis is. I should look into it. Thank you for the link.

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09-06-2012, 05:04 PM
  #125
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As I said in my OP, Kaberle helped the team, but it was too little to overwhelm the tidal forces of mismanagement pulling us to a lottery spot.

With Spacek on the team, we might have been able to select Alex Galchenyuk with the 2nd overall pick :-)


I'm not sure how advanced the analysis is. I should look into it. Thank you for the link.
Most analysis of shootout ability shows it to be essentially random for both shooter and goaltenders. Whether a guy was good one year has no bearing on weather he'll be good the next year.

Not that there's no ability involved, just that there are so few SO shot events that random chance drowns it out. That the completely unskilled rarely get to shoot is another reason for this.


SO are basically a more exciting coin toss to randomly assign a winner in the event of a tie then something based on a difference in talent at the NHL level. Which is why SO wins or losses can be completely disregarded for predicting future performance and assessing how good a team is. (Bad news New Jersey and Boston, good news Montreal and Carolina).

Its also a good reason to eliminate SO's from a team's plus minus.

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