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2012 CBJ Offseason Part III (Proposals, Speculations, Blog Rumors, etc. go here)

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Old
09-04-2012, 10:24 PM
  #626
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Wasn't an argument for..

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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
I will not tolerate, nor will I seriously consider, any argument in favor of tanking. Ever. It's throwing away an entire season (in which entertainment - the goal of this whole thing - becomes very hard to come by in any form) for the sake of a poor-quality gamble. I don't care how much the hype machine is bouncing and screaming and foaming at the mouth over the flavor of the month. Hope is not a strategy.
but was an example of. I have no confidence that we could tank as successfully as Pittsburgh did, I think we will end up in the bottom third trying very very hard to win.
I am not even trying to bash this team, just acknowledging that everyone in the league has better talent than we do. Pittsburgh was shooting for Crosby, Ovechkin and just missed only ending up with Crosby & Malkin. What a shame eh?

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09-04-2012, 11:54 PM
  #627
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Expressions of pessimism and cynicism does not constitute a refutation of an argument any more than expressions of optimism do.

Alternatively: "You'll be singing a different tune when we make the playoffs." hey, it's just as absurd as an assertion...
You argue that there is a plan in place. Please show me evidence of Howson or Patrick or someone in the organization saying "this is what we're trying to do," maybe I've missed it. Weren't you one of the ones who didn't believe Rick Nash wanted out until someone in the organization said so? If so, it seems silly to not require proof of this "plan" other than reading into the moves via your own personal crystal ball that everyone else has used to "see the pattern." If you don't make them state specifically what the plan is, how can you hold them accountable when they screw it up?

I see a pattern of an organization run by people who can't get it right. No accountability in the front office and a team that year after year has to overachieve to even sniff the playoffs. But I saw that with my own eyes, so I guess it doesn't count as much as a crystal ball.

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09-05-2012, 05:50 AM
  #628
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
Other than some esoteric "I think the Jackets benefited from Vinnie because he made X see how a true vet plays the game" I don't see how a team that finished dead last benefited from his addition. Maybe a better 30th than if he wasn't here but 30th none the less.
Enough of your equivocating. In your opinion, did adding Prospal to this team last year help, and will it reap benefits 3-5 years into the future?

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As to your second point I don't think that that is what I said and i think you are just interpreting my comments to help you make some point.
Did you or did you not post this?

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Field (ice?) a hard working team and let the chips fall where they may. I would rather go that route and wind up with one of MacKinnon, Monahan, etc than finish 20th and add to the distinguished list of number 1's in Jacket history.
Answer: you did. Follow-up question. Do you not mean this to imply what I suggest in the second point?

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09-05-2012, 05:52 AM
  #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FANonymous View Post
You argue that there is a plan in place. Please show me evidence of Howson or Patrick or someone in the organization saying "this is what we're trying to do," maybe I've missed it. Weren't you one of the ones who didn't believe Rick Nash wanted out until someone in the organization said so? If so, it seems silly to not require proof of this "plan" other than reading into the moves via your own personal crystal ball that everyone else has used to "see the pattern." If you don't make them state specifically what the plan is, how can you hold them accountable when they screw it up?

I see a pattern of an organization run by people who can't get it right. No accountability in the front office and a team that year after year has to overachieve to even sniff the playoffs. But I saw that with my own eyes, so I guess it doesn't count as much as a crystal ball.
Poster 1: *shows evidence of what they believe is a plan*
Poster 2: *refutes Poster 1's claim based on what Poster 2 said before*

Lather, rinse, repeat.

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09-05-2012, 06:20 AM
  #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
et's play "Questions from DSL>



Enough of your equivocating. In your opinion, did adding Prospal to this team last year help, and will it reap benefits 3-5 years into the future?

I think he made the Jackets a more competitive 30th place team. 3-5 years who knows? I'd guess absolutely no impact unless his role in the front office greatly impacts the team.



Did you or did you not post this?



Answer: you did. Follow-up question. Do you not mean this to imply what I suggest in the second point?

I already said it didn't, but I'll try again. What I said and what I meant was that I see no value in adding a guy like Sykora or Arnott or any other aging vet who MIGHT help the jackets finish around 20th in the league. The one time value of that would, imo, be more than offset by the worse draft position. I didn't say obtaining Prospal caused the 30th place finish nor did I say that getting another old guy would ensure another 30th place finish(if it did I might be in favor of it )
Clearer?

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09-05-2012, 08:29 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Poster 1: *shows evidence of what they believe is a plan*
Poster 2: *refutes Poster 1's claim based on what Poster 2 said before*

Lather, rinse, repeat.
So no real evidence then? Cool.

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09-05-2012, 09:06 AM
  #632
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
Sykora has scored 30 goals, twice in his career;last time in 2002-3
He could have close to 30. What does that mean exactly? That means that 25 in his in reach, which is "close" - seeing as he did it recently. You claimed 30 points. What am I arguing? I have no idea. I don't think you have any idea what you are trying to claim, prove, or otherwise argue.

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09-05-2012, 09:09 AM
  #633
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Originally Posted by FANonymous View Post
So no real evidence then? Cool.
It's more evidence than what you've provided. We're all drawing conclusions based on what portions we're privy to.

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09-05-2012, 09:12 AM
  #634
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Originally Posted by FANonymous View Post
So no real evidence then? Cool.
Thus proving my point. To quote Tom Petty: "You believe what you want to believe."

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09-05-2012, 09:15 AM
  #635
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
Clearer?
Maybe. A couple more questions.

So there is no other way having Prospal play with these kids last season might have an impact on the club in 2-3-5 years?

And you're missing my point on the other. Your stated reason for not wanting to add a veteran player to the roster is because it might vaut the team to an unwanted 20th place finish instead of 30th. What assurance do you have that a 20th place finish won't happen anyway (without the veteran)? Or what assurance do you have the team won't finish 30th anyway even with a vet? (Thus my point that it's happened before.)

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09-05-2012, 09:18 AM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
It's more evidence than what you've provided. We're all drawing conclusions based on what portions we're privy to.
I do have the super secret CBJ plan. Got it from a very shady, ummm, reliable source. Actually I only have the first bullet.

1. Develop plan and lay it out step by step to the HFBoards posters so they can quit their bickering.

I see the change in direction with the recent moves. I believe it is the formation of an identity. Developing in identity could be part of a plan.

Of course they a plan. That's not to say it's a good one.

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09-05-2012, 09:57 AM
  #637
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Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen...

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09-05-2012, 01:49 PM
  #638
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Allow mediocrity to fester then.

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09-05-2012, 03:36 PM
  #639
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Maybe. A couple more questions.

So there is no other way having Prospal play with these kids last season might have an impact on the club in 2-3-5 years?

And you're missing my point on the other. Your stated reason for not wanting to add a veteran player to the roster is because it might vaut the team to an unwanted 20th place finish instead of 30th. What assurance do you have that a 20th place finish won't happen anyway (without the veteran)? Or what assurance do you have the team won't finish 30th anyway even with a vet? (Thus my point that it's happened before.)
Who knows if Prospal's time will have a lasting impact. Hopefully it will but maybe it won't.

As to the second point, I get what you are saying. obviously I have no assurances of either scenario happening. But from what others have said/stated/implied/I inferred this whole thing got started with a discussion of adding a vet to make the team better. So taking that as a given I said why? No real upside as I see it. Either as you point out they finish at the bottom again or the addition helps and the team gets a worse draft pick leaving only the unascertainable long term impact of a veteran's presence to be determined. And again either scenario could happen even if a veteran is not signed.

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09-05-2012, 03:37 PM
  #640
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Allow mediocrity to fester then.
What I love is how we're finally doing the exact opposite and yet now is when you're complaining.

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09-05-2012, 03:45 PM
  #641
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Allow mediocrity to fester then.
If you can tell me a way to allow my plan to be implemented with the CBJ, you'll be my hero. Until then no one on here is allowing anything to occur inside Nationwide. Some of the fans protested and they were ignored. What's your plan on how to proceed? Well besides telling people that are allowing mediocrity to fester that is.

Now if you are saying we should demand better. Sure. I said that a long time ago. A lot of good that does.

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09-05-2012, 04:04 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
Who knows if Prospal's time will have a lasting impact. Hopefully it will but maybe it won't.

As to the second point, I get what you are saying. obviously I have no assurances of either scenario happening. But from what others have said/stated/implied/I inferred this whole thing got started with a discussion of adding a vet to make the team better. So taking that as a given I said why? No real upside as I see it. Either as you point out they finish at the bottom again or the addition helps and the team gets a worse draft pick leaving only the unascertainable long term impact of a veteran's presence to be determined. And again either scenario could happen even if a veteran is not signed.
Now that I feel I have an idea where you're coming from, here's what I'm getting at.

Since there is no way to guarantee a certain finish in the standings, all potential personnel moves should be evaluated based not on how they might impact the team in the standings but how they might impact the team as a collective group of players. Now this next part, you might dispute, so I'll give you that up front. But if you assume that a player can have a positive impact on another player simply by allowing them to develop at a better pace or to learn from said other player, then you proceed with that in mind. Thus, you're hoping to make the team "better" irrespective of how it might finish in the standings - this, of course, to mean that a "better" team will continue to show improvements in all areas, including the standings.

I'd prefer to address non-standings-related improvements first, for two reasons. One, you can't predict on-ice results; and two, non-standings-related improvement often leads to standings-related improvement.

I'll be honest, I have not given enough thought to what types of players or specific players I personally feel might be added to this roster to accomplish this. I just feel it's folly to dismiss "adding a vet" because "it might make us better."

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09-05-2012, 05:29 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Now that I feel I have an idea where you're coming from, here's what I'm getting at.

Since there is no way to guarantee a certain finish in the standings, all potential personnel moves should be evaluated based not on how they might impact the team in the standings but how they might impact the team as a collective group of players. Now this next part, you might dispute, so I'll give you that up front. But if you assume that a player can have a positive impact on another player simply by allowing them to develop at a better pace or to learn from said other player, then you proceed with that in mind. Thus, you're hoping to make the team "better" irrespective of how it might finish in the standings - this, of course, to mean that a "better" team will continue to show improvements in all areas, including the standings.

I'd prefer to address non-standings-related improvements first, for two reasons. One, you can't predict on-ice results; and two, non-standings-related improvement often leads to standings-related improvement.

I'll be honest, I have not given enough thought to what types of players or specific players I personally feel might be added to this roster to accomplish this. I just feel it's folly to dismiss "adding a vet" because "it might make us better."
I get what you are saying and somewhere back in this thread I stated that if we thought adding Arnott could help Johansen I said I could live with that. Still disagree on the concept of adding a vet to (try to)make us better record wise. Maybe you can't separate the two but for sake of argument I'm looking at them as two points.

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09-05-2012, 08:41 PM
  #644
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Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen...
Good, good.

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09-05-2012, 08:46 PM
  #645
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http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/conte...sign-jagr.html

Jackets made attempt to sign Jagr, appease CBJCougar

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09-05-2012, 08:50 PM
  #646
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http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/conte...sign-jagr.html

Jackets made attempt to sign Jagr, appease CBJCougar
Another interesting note in that post is a list of 15 current Jackets working out at the Arena, today.

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09-05-2012, 10:17 PM
  #647
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http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/conte...sign-jagr.html

Jackets made attempt to sign Jagr, appease CBJCougar
What?

I wonder how much more than $300,000 made the difference.

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09-05-2012, 11:02 PM
  #648
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If you can tell me a way to allow my plan to be implemented with the CBJ, you'll be my hero. Until then no one on here is allowing anything to occur inside Nationwide. Some of the fans protested and they were ignored. What's your plan on how to proceed? Well besides telling people that are allowing mediocrity to fester that is.

Now if you are saying we should demand better. Sure. I said that a long time ago. A lot of good that does.
Speak with your money. It's the only language a business understands. Don't go to the games, don't buy the apparel, don't subscribe to the network that carries the games if you have the choice. Don't give the ratings that would draw in advertising money.

You won't miss anything, there's plenty of streams available online if you really want to keep an eye on what they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viqsi
What I love is how we're finally doing the exact opposite and yet now is when you're complaining.
In what way? Shipping out top line talent for 3rd line grinders? Keeping Mason in the NHL far longer than we should have? Bringing back a GM that hasn't ever been successful for a sixth year? I wish I could wear your rose colored glasses again but the past two years have smacked them right off my face.

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09-06-2012, 07:52 AM
  #649
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Speak with your money.
Now THERE's a plan....

Seriously? That's what you came up with? The first thing anyone says? Yeah, I'm sure the CBJ haven't noticed a hit at the gate...

I'm not so vain as to think you remember anything I've said over the years, but I've already mentioned that my investment in the CBJ is at a shadow of what it was. I also mentioned that I tell my season ticket rep why my investment is a lot lower. I also list conditions on increasing that investment. Although investment is an idiotic word, there is no investment in it.

Oh an for the record, I like hockey. A lot. Am I going eliminate going to games in person because I don't like who my team ices or who the GM is? Hell no. No, I am not going to use scalpers.

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09-06-2012, 08:05 AM
  #650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
I get what you are saying and somewhere back in this thread I stated that if we thought adding Arnott could help Johansen I said I could live with that. Still disagree on the concept of adding a vet to (try to)make us better record wise. Maybe you can't separate the two but for sake of argument I'm looking at them as two points.
I'm saying don't use "record-wise" to measure the value/benefit of adding a vet.

In your scenario, what if the team adds Arnott to help Johansen, and Johansen somehow gets really good and helps propel the team into a 19th place finish? Can you "live with it" or do you "disagree"?

They way you're looking at it, the two issues are intertwined. I'm removing one measure completely.

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